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12/18/2018 9:51:45 PM
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Everything the top level players tell you about SBMM is wrong. Here are the truths they don't want you to understand.
Before I begin and before you watch the video above, I also [url=https://youtu.be/s6ilnUPwiPE]made a primer video[/url] which goes over the basic tenets and framework of how Destiny 2 PvP works to give a better understanding of the process as a whole.
This has been an ongoing discussion and I have been posting heavily on this topic since the last Iron Banner and despite having posted a ton of statistics, the higher tier players continue to spread the same false claims as to how sbmm works, such as
[quote]Skill based matchmaking takes the place of connection based matchmaking and causes lag.[/quote]
[quote]With skill factored in matchmaking, high and low skilled friends can't play together because the lower skilled friends only face players at their high skilled friend's level.[/quote]
[quote]With skill factored, high skilled players can never just ''relax and have fun'' because every game is too ''sweaty'' and all they face are players their own skill level.[/quote]
[quote]They don't want to play with sbmm because it let's them use different weapons and not have to run the same meta they play in Comp.[/quote]
All of those claims are completely bogus and when challenged and corrected, the standard response is to of course tell us that we don't want to have to play better opponents and that the only way we can get better is to get our heads kicked in or by sitting and watching our teammates kick in the opposition's heads while we pick up scraps.
The reality of course is that all we play are players our own skill or higher and they almost never play anyone at their own skill level, let alone above them. But saying is one thing and showing is another, so I invite you to watch the video above and see the truth behind the lies and understand exactly why those players want you to believe this is all in your best interests while they forever prey on you and your friends in an unending chain of pub-stomps.
Thank you and hopefully Bungie addresses this in the near future.
[spoiler]There are a few grammatical errors in the video. Was up all night and the words started running together eventually.[/spoiler]
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12 RepliesEdited by oOUTSIDERo62: 12/20/2018 1:30:01 AMHere is a solution that might just work. It would not stop the pub-stomps, at least not right away, but it would make pub-stomping and pub-farming useless. In the QP playlist, no stats are tracked at all, kills do not add to your K/D. Its a casual playlist, isn't it???????? Its just there for fun, isn't it?????????? So, nothing that happens in the QP playlist should be recorded onto anybodies account in any manner. This would make farming, just for fun, and would not benefit the elite in any way as far as ELO, K/D, or any other measurement.
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54 RepliesReason you want sbmm. Is because you don't wanna play better players.
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2 RepliesI will put this simply, this game needs CBMM over SBMM. If you get stomped and still struggle than I am sorry for you, you simply have to get better, QP should never be a problem for someone.
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9 RepliesEdited by More Power: 12/19/2018 6:41:22 PMI ended D1 with ~60K kills in the crucible and with a 1.1 k/d (when combining all current and deleted chars). Loved it. I'm an average player. Some games I was the bug and some games I was the windshield. I have less than ~3k opponents defeated in all of D2, and I can't remember a game where I lead the winning team - I don't think there is one. I had lots of the "Best Around" medals in D1. Now, I most often appear near the bottom of the losing team. Games like the following should never happen, where the top player had 4.6 times more opponents defeated than I. https://www.bungie.net/en/PGCR/3058423061?character=2305843009261052703 The one big question I have is... "why does Bungie allow this to happen?" I have a guess, and it ain't pretty. Bungie could/should make a statement about what you found and tell us what drives their crucible design. From that, we would have a better idea how to move forward - as a fan/consumer.
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2 RepliesYe man its all one massive conspiracy. A grand coordinated effort to keep sbmm out of Destiny 2, just so we can get our kd's a little higher. Good job unveiling the horrible, horrible truth with your quality research. [spoiler]Kappa[/spoiler]
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6 RepliesEdited by Dano2point0: 12/19/2018 3:08:57 PMThe issue I have with it all is that a lot of these top tier players don't go in to have fun. They go in to humiliate with their meta loadout and stacked to dominate. They are so unimaginative. It's the same shit over and over. This isn't healthy for the game because it's going to drive down players that go in there for fun to simply just complete the weekly leaving only the average Crucible Joes (those that average a lot of Crucible time) to deal with these loaded teams regularly. And what happens next is these players leave Crucible altogether and the elite players can have fun playing each other in Quickplay. Then they can bitch here about how sbmm should be removed from Quickplay because they aren't having any fun playing against players their skill level. And I just want to tell them imagine playing against stacked teams twice your skill level all the time. [spoiler]This was my first match last night that I joined in progress just in time for opposing Supers: https://destinytracker.com/d2/pgcr/3238897856. Notice the gear for the top three players. This is the trend. And here's my last match of the night: https://destinytracker.com/d2/pgcr/3239274333[/spoiler]
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1 ReplyI didn’t watch the video but ever since they removed (it was a bug allegedly) SBMM prior to Forsaken I was saying all the streamers and YouTube content creators want it this way so they can make their damn montage videos. And following a lot of Bungie employees and streamers/YTers on twitter a lot of them were in favor of keeping SBMM out of quick play for obvious reasons: streamers get “street cred” for pub stomps, Bungie and Destiny itself gets massive amounts of free advertisement from these montage videos “Omg Ralphie! Did u just see that sick team kill snipe?! OmgZ I’ll go buy Forsaken when it comes out” One streamer even relied to me saying quick play was a “sweatshop” and he didn’t want to “sweat his dick off” in quick play. Like dude, you get 5 freaking tokens, maybe a legendary. Idk who in their right mind gets sweaty over such lame rewards. Ever since they removed SBMM I basically stopped playing crucible except for Mayhem recently and getting my dailies and weekly milestones done. It’s pretty sad cuz by doing this Bungie essentially cut off half of the games entertainment value to me.
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1 ReplyI fail to see how balanced and equally skilled teams is a "punishment" some people want to avoid.
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2 RepliesBungie has made it quite clear that competitive has absolutely nothing to do with skill or performance. Why? Well, just the fact that there are ‘bonus’ points for doing multiple victories in a row, and you are not individually rated for your skill regardless of win or loss in strictly k/d gametypes. Valor is a representation of how much crucible you play and glory is a mishmash of various things in which skill does play a small part. Destiny does not have skill based matchmaking and never will, bungie has made this clear by only creating ways for people with nothing to do, to climb their way up and get the loot that many others are unable to obtain because destiny requires a rediculous amount of time dedication. Destiny will never have sbmm no matter how much people ask for it, bungie will continue to do exactly what they’ve been doing all along.
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2 RepliesWhy would anyone want to sweat and actually play people of their own skill level? Some people like to beat up tomatoes cans and call themselves great.
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1 ReplyWhy Josh hamrik or any other crucible developer haven't responded to this?
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3 RepliesEdited by Super68: 12/21/2018 4:24:36 AMThe entire situation can be solved by having THREE main playlists (sorry if I sound like a broken record): 1) Competitive: Objective, round based modes where winning is paramount and team play is imperative. 2) Quickplay CBMM: For those that want the best connection and the most efficient match formation. 3) Quickplay SBMM: For those that just want to play close matches against players of similar skill. The outcome of the match is typically in doubt until the end. Let the player decide what they value most: Comp, CBMM or SBMM. This seems so simple.
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I personally kinda agree with most of the points for non sbmm (except the whole variety of guns in comp, since there will always be a few weapons people gravitate to in comp playlists). To clarify, this is coming from someone who played with sbmm in D1, and has been playing Destiny since the launch of Destiny 1. I really like the thought of sbmm, but with how I remembered it being implemented, 80% of my games were plagued with connection issues, from simple control to attempting Trials. On top of that, there was no room for any kind of fun or diversity amongst the weapons and people I played against, with every match feeling like the last round you need for a flawless trials run, whether solo, or with a fire team of lower skilled friends (which is almost all of them ). I can understand the argument of “ Top tier players just complain about facing people of their own skill”, because I can have games where I go on some high kill games or big streaks. But I’m just some who’s decent at PvP, and at my best I’m good, but no where near top tier. So, I agree that on paper, sbmm should be perfect for the game, but because of my experience with it, I don’t think that, at the least, Bungie can properly implement it, which is why I’m against it.
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143 RepliesThe arguments "for" CBMM that come from top players are RANK hypocrisy. They are not motivated by principle. They are motivated by self-interest....that is SPUN as being "in the best interest of the game". Its like listening to rich people talk about low taxes. There are only three reasons why highly-skilled players want CBMM 1. Financial interest: Content creators and streamers are more successful the more DOMINANT they appear to be. So they want a steady stream of weaker players to increase demand for their content. 2. Effortless Success. You have people who want to "mail it in" ("relax") rather than compete ("sweat'). BUT THEY DON'T WANT TO GIVE UP THE SUCCESS THEY'RE USED TO. So they want to be able to dial in the amount of EFFORT they exert....but dont' want the SUCCESS that they experience to vary with their effort level. So they want to be allowed to FARM weaker players on those days they want to "relax". But, of course, they don't give a rat's ass that they are ruining the experience of those weaker players, and will eventually PUSH them out of the game. 3. (The rarest) You have people who live in sparsely populated areas.....play at very odd times of the day....or are so nose-bleed high in their skill level, that the game struggles to find them a suitable match with good connections in a reasonable amount of time. Only the 3rd is an argument that I consider to be legitimate. The rest are exploitative.
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3 RepliesHonestly if you are bad at pvp, SBBM is good. Helps you go against tougher opponents so you can learn from them and hone the strategy they use to win gun fights and games.
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32 RepliesIt is a double standard at play. Non hardcore players who don’t enjoy getting stomped by the hardcore are deemed “whiners”. Yet...somehow...the highly skilled who don’t enjoy playing relatively equal opposition say the status quo is justified by their desire for less sweaty (easier) matches and better connection. Farcical. Can’t get most of my friends to play pvp nowadays.
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7 RepliesWhat's the counterargument to the last point (meta weapons)?
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Edited by Cryos Knight: 12/19/2018 6:23:46 PMI never played PVP except for Iron Banner in D1 before SBMM was put in the game. Without it I had a horrible time every time I tried to play. Then SBMM was stealth added and I started to have fun. I actually started to go into PVP to have fun with out a fireteam. Slowly I was able to raise my KD to 1 which I was very happy with. I even grinded for the Mountain Top quest and all of the PVP exotics. Then SBMM went away in D2. The bad old days of being destroyed match after match came back. Now I have stopped playing other than one match a week for the milestone. Even IB I only play enough to get a set of armor then I am out. My KD is now 0.75 and I just don't care to go into the Crucible. BTW- I understand Bungie cannot please everyone, I do not expect them to. This is just my experience.
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15 RepliesSadly, Bungie plays into their desire. By putting lots of PvP bounties into effect, they pump unwilling players into the Crucible, and give the hardcore players an endless supply of cupcakes to stomp on.
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5 RepliesImagine what you might be able to do in your spare time if you got an f'ing life.
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6 RepliesEdited by RavenousLD3341: 12/19/2018 12:09:56 PMThe crucible has and will continue to be one of the worst PvP experiences available in modern games. There's way too many better competitive PvP offerings available that don't have any of the issues that this game has had. This is a sub-standard offering from a massive dev studio backed by a multi-billion dollar publisher. They can do better, they know they can, why they refuse is a total mystery to me.
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I am rank guardian in competitive and I saw not forgotten two games in a row where my team struggled to get a kill. this says it all. sbmm is even more of a necessity in destiny 2 then in destiny 1. quickplay can be pretty lopsided game in and game out. we are talking about teams winning by 50 or more points.
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4 RepliesWith skill factored, high skilled players can never just ''relax and have fun'' because every game is too ''sweaty'' and all they face are players their own skill level. This is just a giant load of BS, the 1% or 10% whatever people call it dont want to be "sweaty", so the majority of the playerbase, 90% or more have to be while facing them. And when 90% or more of the playerbase are not having fun in a "fun game mode" then what's the point of even having it?.
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3 RepliesEdited by Jibunnokage: 12/21/2018 5:40:09 AMToday, after several games, constantly top players had KDs in the 20s and 30s, the rest of us, struggled to get 1.0 or better. We played several game modes, the experience was the same of course. How this is fair or reasonable, can't be justified in any manner. This large gap between elites and others, is beyond logic. Even my friends that are elite players, and often, easily get KDs in the 10s and 20s, have quit playing D2 PvP in total disgust for how boring it is, trashing less skilled players over and over. So Bungie has in fact, created the worst possible scenario for D2 PvP, players in mass leaving because of endless stomping, and some elite players leaving because stomping in the long run is boring. Way to go Bungie... I can't see how you could screw up D2 PvP more... oh, wait, this is Bungie.. they can screw up something that is already so screwed up, if defies any rational intent or understanding, right?
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1 ReplyGood thread and video. I have made similar points on these forums and youtube comment section. Bungie doesn't care. They know streamers and youtubers are the advertisers for their game and are doing whatever it takes to please them, even if it pushes other players away. Top teir players wanted SBMM to go away for one reason only, they wanted to pubstomp in 99% of their matches. All the arguments against it were just a bunch of garbage. I always laugh at the "not wanting to have to sweat in every match" argument. I see luna's or not forgottens in every match. I guess these good players didn't get the memo about wanting to use non meta weapons. What Bungie could have done is create a playlist with SBMM, similar to what is used for Iron Banner. That way, at least average players had the option whether or not they wanted to get their teeth kicked in every other match. And NO competitive isn't the solution for casual players. Competitive matchmaking could possibly be worse than quickplay matchmaking.
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2 RepliesIt's simple why the "elite" players want CBMM instead of SBMM. They sat for 5 hours getting for their over powered needs removed from the game LH or NF and now they wanna rub it in peoples faces by going into QP and curve stomping casual players because they have such fragile egos that if they aren't rubbing their so called "superiority" into players faces they will realize they have nothing better to do with their lives than ruin other peoples fun time.
