JavaScript is required to use Bungie.net

Forums

12/19/2018 2:26:21 PM
143
The arguments "for" CBMM that come from top players are RANK hypocrisy. They are not motivated by principle. They are motivated by self-interest....that is SPUN as being "in the best interest of the game". Its like listening to rich people talk about low taxes. There are only three reasons why highly-skilled players want CBMM 1. Financial interest: Content creators and streamers are more successful the more DOMINANT they appear to be. So they want a steady stream of weaker players to increase demand for their content. 2. Effortless Success. You have people who want to "mail it in" ("relax") rather than compete ("sweat'). BUT THEY DON'T WANT TO GIVE UP THE SUCCESS THEY'RE USED TO. So they want to be able to dial in the amount of EFFORT they exert....but dont' want the SUCCESS that they experience to vary with their effort level. So they want to be allowed to FARM weaker players on those days they want to "relax". But, of course, they don't give a rat's ass that they are ruining the experience of those weaker players, and will eventually PUSH them out of the game. 3. (The rarest) You have people who live in sparsely populated areas.....play at very odd times of the day....or are so nose-bleed high in their skill level, that the game struggles to find them a suitable match with good connections in a reasonable amount of time. Only the 3rd is an argument that I consider to be legitimate. The rest are exploitative.
English

Posting in language:

 

Cancel Edit Play nice. Take a minute to review our Code of Conduct before submitting your post. Create Fireteam Post

  • Edited by Lord Kielron: 12/21/2018 7:48:47 PM
    Sigh..... I read this entire post thread and being honest here, both yourself and Logan went out to left field with some of your arguments in attempting to strongarm your points across while dismissing actual rebuttal as deflections. Maybe listening to all povs instead of getting all pissy about things would be beneficial. Just a thought. You can not compare a video game to a professional sport, no matter how people are trying to bring it to that way. There is no actual argument there other than just throwing things out there trying to make an example that just frankly does not fit. Professional sports are structured strictly. Video games are not, and frankly are built around people just having fun. What really is the problem these days is everyone turning the video game into this big elaborate competition when all they were was to have fun. That’s what is the real problem these days, to the point where it has leeched all fun out of the game because all it comes down to is stomping or be stomped, and who can one up another player. That’s it. Us older players, while we know the competition, we don’t usually give to much of a crap about it because all we are looking for is to have fun. The younger people are just looking to compete, and that’s their idea of fun. Which is why there is a HUGE disconnect from our generation and players from younger generations. Also why you guys constantly get angry when others do not share your opinions. Here’s the problem with this whole thing. Fun is really relegated to the player. In this particular game Skill based should be ranked play and Connection based should be quick play. By default that’s how it should be. However, as of right now, NEITHER are in place as Bungie removed both accidentally and are playing wait and see with it right now. So this whole argument as of right now is silly for that reason. As far as I’m concerned Connection should take priority to provide the smoothest game experience, and not have players lagging across my screen teleporting out of pulse bursts while instant killing me. But that’s not everything. Skill should still have an important factor in the matches as well. Which is probably why game companies use these weird Hybrid systems to satisfy both sides of the equation. Which we all know is a failure. Conclusion to my statement here is we have statistics for one person and their experiences from one skill bracket, but that in itself is inconclusive because it’s just his individual experience. We need others from various other brackets also doing like studies so we have a complete amount of information to go on. Teams are also an anomaly that has to be taken under consideration as well, given team communication tends to provide advantages that random players do not have. There is more that needs to be brought to light on the topic than just one persons perspective on his experiences on one platform. So instead of fighting each other, let’s bring more evidence to the table from different skill tiers. Who knows, maybe everyone is actually experiencing the same exact results on all fronts, and teams are the real problem. Let us stop tearing each other apart, because that solves absolutely nothing at all. -LK

    Posting in language:

     

    Cancel Edit Play nice. Take a minute to review our Code of Conduct before submitting your post. Create Fireteam Post

  • Edited by LoganX: 12/22/2018 3:54:33 AM
    Hey LK and thanks for the well thought out reply. If you think about what Sols is doing I think at its core he's looking for people to give and kind of solid evidence to the contrary of his point. To counter his numbers. The problem is very few who are supporting CBMM are doing that. Most are just either lashing out or providing more opinion than fact. Rivermonster is one of the few level headed people on that side of the debate yet is still defending his right to pubstomp. [quote] You can not compare a video game to a professional sport [/quote] We'll you can actually and I'm not going to step on Kelly's reply because he has it down. However you're missing the one fact in that. Most of the time it's the CBMM supporters that bring that up. Trying to say that in sports players [u]of all skills[/u] are brought together to play. Problem is in [u]organized[/u] that not true and Kelly is very good at letting those people fall flat in their face with it. [quote] Fun is really relegated to the player. [/quote] That's actually part of my arguments. "My fun is different than your fun" I've never said that top tier players should be able to unwind from the sweat. It just should be at the expence of (at the very least) the [u]lowest[/u] tier players. However mid tier (and lower) should also have a place where it's fun for them and that is [u]not[/u] Comp. Their "answer" that the lower tier players should go to Comp for [u]even[/u] matches is absurd and plain ignorant. I mentioned this in another reply to TJM. I've been playing this franchise since the D1 beta. Coming from a Battlefield background I am very pvp centric. I've lived through all the changes to pvp over the years. The good and bad. All the metas, all the OP weapons. Everything. They were all survivable experiences because underneath it all the game was still fun for me. Even with my mediocre skill. Shouldn't Bungie be questioning why a 4 year vet to their game suddenly can't stand the experience? What has changes so much to mske the game so completely unenjoyable that I don't even want to play PVE? Shouldn't they know that I can't be alone in this? [quote] So instead of fighting each other, let’s bring more evidence to the table from different skill tiers[/quote] I'm sure you've taken notice that if some rational though is brought to the table the conversations are fine. As I said though, so far the pro CBMM people have yet to bring any real counter arguments. Bottom line is that yes, skill need to have some say even in QP. No one is asking for it to be 1:1, just something level out the blowouts. Secondly, if people want a pvp mode that is [u]just for fun[/u], then create a wide open CBMM Playlist that doesn't track stats. That will eliminate the KD and ELO farmers and [u]maybe[/u] then it will just be for fun.

    Posting in language:

     

    Cancel Edit Play nice. Take a minute to review our Code of Conduct before submitting your post. Create Fireteam Post

  • This!

    Posting in language:

     

    Cancel Edit Play nice. Take a minute to review our Code of Conduct before submitting your post. Create Fireteam Post

  • Appreciate the level headed reply, Logan. I’ll respond to points when I am able to get the chance. Let’s keep ideas flowing. 👍

    Posting in language:

     

    Cancel Edit Play nice. Take a minute to review our Code of Conduct before submitting your post. Create Fireteam Post

  • [quote]You can not compare a video game to a professional sport,[/quote] 1. Actually you can. Professional atheletes are nothing more than people who are statistical OUTLIERS . They are the top fraction of a fraction of a percent in terms of skill and ability in a particular sport. To the point that people wish to pay money to watch them play...and so they are able to earn a LIVING playing the game. So when you get matched up with an nKuch or these other content creators who make their living playing this game. You are in essence being matched against a professional. ...and both I, Logan X, and others have gone on at length as to why NO OTHER competitive endeavor does this. [quote]What really is the problem these days is everyone turning the video game into this big elaborate competition when all they were was to have fun. [/quote] 2. That happens WHENEVER you introduce competition into a community. It always brings out the BEST in some....and the WORST in others. The issue with videogaming is that there are no CULTURAL structures in place to contain and discipline that competitive energy. As someone mentioned earlier....in a baseball game...if you start stealing bases despite having a 20 run lead on an opponent? A responsible manager will yank you out of the game and read you the riot act about sportsmanship before sitting you on the bench. If your manager doesn't yank you, expect to get a fastball to the side of your head, or in your face as an expression of the opposing teams **displeasure** at your behavior. Now in video-gamings defense---as Logan X mentioned----the ANONYMITY of the internet lets people get away with all sorts of toxic behavior and objectifying of other people....because its difficult to enforce negative consequences for it. So it falls to game developers to police it. 3. I've always said that MM should always be a balance of Skill and Connection. Because that creates the conditions for the most enjoyable experiende for the greatest number of people. People get to play against people of similar skill so that they can enjoy competition...but no one is getting humiliated. But also no one is having to deal with people teleporting around the map, rubber-banding, and failing to take damage. The issue isn't that you can't come up with a compromise where everyone gets SOME of what they want. Its that you have an entitled group who believe they shouldn't have to....and that the game owes them fun at the EXPENSE of others...rather than alongside them. It the difference between sharing a laugh with someone....and being LAUGHED AT by them. WE all know the difference between to two...and that the latter either shames people or makes them angry.

    Posting in language:

     

    Cancel Edit Play nice. Take a minute to review our Code of Conduct before submitting your post. Create Fireteam Post

  • [quote]3. (The rarest) You have people who live in sparsely populated areas.....play at very odd times of the day....[/quote] Of point 3, I think only these two points are actually worth consideration. That said, regardless of which matchmaking preference is made, they're still going to be playing from sparsely populated areas or playing at odd times of the day, and therefore, going to be matchmade with people from all over the planet. Point 3 of point 3 however... [quote]or are so nose-bleed high in their skill level, that the game struggles to find them a suitable match with good connections in a reasonable amount of time.[/quote] It's just common sense that the best players are only up in that top tier because they've invested the time to get there. The Pareto Principle would indicate that the top ~20% make up about 80% of all Crucible traffic. So even if the top 1% of players are being matchmade with people in the top 20%, they would still have about 80% of the population to potentially be paired with. There's not going to be any shortage of players that the game struggles to find a match in a reasonable time, these are players with thousands of games under their belt...

    Posting in language:

     

    Cancel Edit Play nice. Take a minute to review our Code of Conduct before submitting your post. Create Fireteam Post

  • Agreed. I said the argument was legitimate.....but that's not the same as determinative. As you said, given player pool composition, I think you can have a MM algorithm that blends skill-matching and connection-quality controls such that you can give a good play experience even to these players. My overall point is that the arguments that "CBMM good/SBMM bad" are basically arguments motivated by individual self-interest. Not what's best for the game as whole or the community as a whole.

    Posting in language:

     

    Cancel Edit Play nice. Take a minute to review our Code of Conduct before submitting your post. Create Fireteam Post

  • Bingo... agree 100%

    Posting in language:

     

    Cancel Edit Play nice. Take a minute to review our Code of Conduct before submitting your post. Create Fireteam Post

  • Edited by Orpheus49: 12/19/2018 6:02:08 PM
    Well in a game like fornite. There is only 1 winner and it's almost always the best guy in the lobby You dont see that pushing out the 99 other losers. Because usually people are willing to admit they were just better You guys want sbmm to play in a way where you dont have try you hardest every time to contend. This is the exact thing we wanna do. Becuase no one wants to be sweaty 24/7. Exceept when we want it its selfish Literally exactly what we want, except they did that before and everything goes to shit connection wise That seems more selfish to me than anything

    Posting in language:

     

    Cancel Edit Play nice. Take a minute to review our Code of Conduct before submitting your post. Create Fireteam Post

  • [quote] You guys want sbmm to play in a way where you dont have try you hardest every time to contend[/quote] This is so fukking false it's hysterical. Once again a complete disconnect to what the mid tier player deems as fun and what we want out if this. You people keep thinking it's about protection when it's not. Yet they are being allowed to protect their player farming. The point is that when a plat or diamond player or 2 are in the other side there [u]is no point in trying![/u] It is not a learning environment it's just a toxic and frustrating one. Even being on the winning side of that there's nothing to learn because your just picking up scraps. The best learning environment for us is within a range of our peers and we try damn hard every time because that environment allowed a better chance of winning. For top tier thay say this is sweating all the time. For me it's simply a good match. That's why there such a disconnect for you. Once again I'll point out to keep the "go play comp" comments. Comp Playlist is filled with sweaty players anyway so it's innately a toxic playground. But keep trying to make points with your 9 months of being away.

    Posting in language:

     

    Cancel Edit Play nice. Take a minute to review our Code of Conduct before submitting your post. Create Fireteam Post

  • Straw man, no where has the top players expressed any desire to come out and just wanna smash all the time Thats the entire draw of trials from the beginning and the huge popularity of competitive playlists in any game. Take it to equally determined foe and try your hardest. No one wants to simple punk on people, that's a red herring fallacy Cbmm desire is in the title, a want for better connections and overall stability, just remember how awful connections were when they attempted it. Just like you, we want to occasionally sit back and just enjoy the game in quickplay, when it's time to play hard then theres a competitive playlist. Where does any of that list a desire to "farm" It's a fallacy and a poor argument

    Posting in language:

     

    Cancel Edit Play nice. Take a minute to review our Code of Conduct before submitting your post. Create Fireteam Post

  • [quote]Straw man, no where has the top players expressed any desire to come out and just wanna smash all the time[/quote] Ignorance and lies. You ha e t been here to see the arrogance and elitism that you support. There's someone in this very thread supporting his right to stomp. Just stop embarrassing yourself.

    Posting in language:

     

    Cancel Edit Play nice. Take a minute to review our Code of Conduct before submitting your post. Create Fireteam Post

  • Ironic isnt' it. He's accusing others of the very thing he wants for himself. Lower skill players should have to "sweat" all the time...so that the better players can only sweat when they feel like it. Oh the hypocrisy.

    Posting in language:

     

    Cancel Edit Play nice. Take a minute to review our Code of Conduct before submitting your post. Create Fireteam Post

  • So lower tier players should have all the free will while players who practiced to get that good should be meant to suffer from horrible connections due to lower amounts of elite Yeah, the cbmm desire is right in the name. More stability Fix the quick play and competitive playlists up. So you can play your hardest when you want some real challenges and chill with friends at other times This straw man accusations are nonsense

    Posting in language:

     

    Cancel Edit Play nice. Take a minute to review our Code of Conduct before submitting your post. Create Fireteam Post

  • He's always been like this. That's why it's so funny to have him [u]back from retirement[/u] just to troll Sols with this nonsense. He's been the poster boy for the entitled top tier player for years now.

    Posting in language:

     

    Cancel Edit Play nice. Take a minute to review our Code of Conduct before submitting your post. Create Fireteam Post

  • Edited by Orpheus49: 12/20/2018 9:18:28 PM
    You been waiting for me???? Why? Saw a post that had a fallacy in its argument, so I pointed it out

    Posting in language:

     

    Cancel Edit Play nice. Take a minute to review our Code of Conduct before submitting your post. Create Fireteam Post

  • Edited by kellygreen2: 12/20/2018 12:25:53 PM
    [quote]the entitled top tier player for years now.[/quote] Which is what this is really about at the end of the day. A group of entitled players who feel that the game owes them effortless success....and the "right" to farm weaker players for their own enjoyment...but at the expense of that of those weaker players. Then have the nerve to want people to see them as "bad asses" after they've finished bullying someone's kid sister who barely knows which end of the controller to point at the TV.... Not this lifetime. Not from me, at any rate. Another bit of well-appreciated wisdom from my Dad.: "[i]The game owes you nothing[/i]."

    Posting in language:

     

    Cancel Edit Play nice. Take a minute to review our Code of Conduct before submitting your post. Create Fireteam Post

  • An attitude that's only been more mainstream in the past decade or less. Re: my point about inate skill and the reluctance to wanting [u]actual[/u] competition against that skill. They love to preach about their (inflated) [u]numbers[/u] but are less willing to do anything that will threaten them.

    Posting in language:

     

    Cancel Edit Play nice. Take a minute to review our Code of Conduct before submitting your post. Create Fireteam Post

  • Edited by kellygreen2: 12/20/2018 2:02:01 PM
    [quote]They love to preach about their (inflated) numbers but are less willing to do anything that will threaten them.[/quote] In golf, those are called "vanity handicaps". The guys who like to pretend that they have a lower handicap that they actually do, because they don't post their bad scores. They always get found out in any sort of (actual) competition, because they can't legitimately play to the level their "number" would indicate. But that's part of what's wrong with gaming these days. You have people playing games with all sorts of agendas that have nothing to do with actually having fun. Its kind of sad to watch.

    Posting in language:

     

    Cancel Edit Play nice. Take a minute to review our Code of Conduct before submitting your post. Create Fireteam Post

  • [quote]You guys want sbmm to play in a way where you dont have try you hardest every time to contend. [/quote] This is not an argument I've ever made or seen made. What I have said (and seen said) is that we, as lower skilled players, MUST ALWAYS play our hardest and nearly always lose horribly. There is no scenario where lower skilled players wouldn't have to try their hardest to win, because SBMM would bring that exact environment. Similarly-skilled players would give each other a run for their money, and should yield a close match. I'd be happy to lose 100 close matches in a row than get stomped in 80% of my games. The fact that I play my hardest never changes, nor could it - because I'm not sitting at the top of the mountain with god thumbs...

    Posting in language:

     

    Cancel Edit Play nice. Take a minute to review our Code of Conduct before submitting your post. Create Fireteam Post

  • [quote]Its like listening to rich people talk about low taxes.[/quote] This is kind of outside the realm of D2 but I’m curious to your thoughts and I think this is kind of interesting. What are the chances that this debate about sbmm is a thing because of the different viewpoints of democrats/liberals vs republicans/conservatives? If I had to guess just based on the attitudes of people in the comments most people in favor of sbmm probably lean towards the left while those against sbmm lean towards the right...

    Posting in language:

     

    Cancel Edit Play nice. Take a minute to review our Code of Conduct before submitting your post. Create Fireteam Post

  • [quote]If I had to guess just based on the attitudes of people in the comments most people in favor of sbmm probably lean towards the left while those against sbmm lean towards the right...[/quote] Your guess would be wrong, at least for me. I think conservatives, libertarians, and liberals would all be against NFL players going up against a pee wee football team for the sole purpose of ripping them apart without having to exert much effort. Who would be for this? No one of any political stripe. No one who had even a little empathy. But in a virtual sense, that is the very argument being advanced by the CBMM ONLY crowd. They don’t mind kicking the teeth in of that pee wee newbie. It’s fun I guess the way some immature kid thinks pulling the wings off a butterfly is fun I suppose.

    Posting in language:

     

    Cancel Edit Play nice. Take a minute to review our Code of Conduct before submitting your post. Create Fireteam Post

  • I’m for it. I worked hard for the ability to pub stomp. If you don’t want to be pub stomped work hard like I did.

    Posting in language:

     

    Cancel Edit Play nice. Take a minute to review our Code of Conduct before submitting your post. Create Fireteam Post

  • It's a video game kid,your not entitled to anything. We all payed for the game to be fun and fair. What an entitled kid you are

    Posting in language:

     

    Cancel Edit Play nice. Take a minute to review our Code of Conduct before submitting your post. Create Fireteam Post

  • Yet all you whiners are entitled to a matchmaking to cater to yourselves... oh the irony.

    Posting in language:

     

    Cancel Edit Play nice. Take a minute to review our Code of Conduct before submitting your post. Create Fireteam Post

You are not allowed to view this content.
;
preload icon
preload icon
preload icon