I am not good at all but I have played far less PvP this season than the last, due to the MM changes in 6v6. I have to put back on fusion many times. I have to stick with team mates because of many stacks. I have to play more passively because opponents stick together and team shooting. I would want to be able to try different weapons, play style etc. at least in 6v6. It’s not casual anymore.

Don't want to cater to casuals? Awesome...then remove every reason pve players are pushed into pvp. No pinnacles. No PVE meta tier rewards. No quests/bounties/catalysts Watch the PVE players disappear along with all their cries for SBMM and nerfs. Problem solved, right? 😉

Very good post. After preordering and having years of fun in this game, it is clear the fun is over for veterans. It is clear Bungie wants the veterans to leave so they can keep the newer players stupid. However, we are very excited for the new COD coming out in October.

That's a lot of words for "I have no idea what I'm talking about." Only Control has SBMM. Nothing else does. Dry up.

[quote]I’ve played this game from the beginning. I went from a .7, to being average at the end of D1, top 500 in multiple modes in D2, and then back to being just above average now that I’ve swapped to MnK. I’ve been in almost every state of “skill learning” that there is in this game, and I am currently back down to the phase where I really do get smacked around some games. I am once again matching players that are just better, out gun me every time, and make me drop negative. Even COMING DOWN from a high skill level this does not bother me, and I am always welcome to the challenge and opportunity to improve. Well, it makes me mad but that’s besides the point. I still understand that it’s okay to and good to be taught where my shortcomings are. This is not coming from a player who is “looking to stomp”, or a stat farmer. All I play is rumble, comp, and scrims in PMs. (Trials as well, I don’t enjoy it and only do it for loot, so I don’t really count it as one of my go to game modes.) Watching this happen to what was once one of the most fun, unique, and captivating PvP experiences is truly upsetting. Over catering to casuals and bad players kills games. Look at what’s happened to CoD the past few years. NOBODY in that community likes the catering to passive gameplay and casuals either. This is not a Destiny specific issue, many game developers are making the same mistake. While the game is completely different from destiny, look at CSGO. They do absolutely NO catering to bad players and casuals, none at all. That game is still one of the largest E-sports after 20 years have past post release. Realize that large skill gaps are amazing for game longevity. [b]TAKE NOTES BUNGIE![/b] Now we obviously need them however that does not mean that the entire game needs to be watered down for them. Give the lowest of the lowly skilled gamers some safe space, but SBMM in casual modes is not the answer for anyone who invests effort into the game. The thing about a large portion of casual gamers is that they do not have loyalty to one game. They will play multiple games casually, and the ones that complain will always complain. While we need casuals for player population, listening to every change that they want tends to create a worst game. There is a happy medium, but we have gone too far. Control and rumble: The team balancing that I am going to mention obviously does not apply to rumble. Add a matchmaking barrier so that .5s aren’t matching 2.5s. Make three brackets, the bottom, everyone else, and the top. Protect the bottom for the top, that is all. Make it so that bottom tier players aren’t matching pros, but are still matching average and above average players. Some people want to roll through 6v6 shadow thrall all day, that is not me, I rarely ever touch 6v6. I 1-3 stack when I do most of the time. Now that the bottom is protected from the top, MATCH TEAMS TO TEAMS. Overwatch did this at one point and it worked perfectly. Match 6 stacks to 6 stacks, 3 stacks to three stacks ect. For example, a 4 stack would que, a 2 stack would fill the remaining slots on their team. They would match another team consisting of a 4 stack and a 2 stack. It is a casual mode, it’s okay to get rolled sometimes. It happens to me in rumble too guys, I’m trying to get better again. We need to stop with this victim complex that we have as a community. Competitive: Add a ranking system and rank based matchmaking. Use the rank names that you have now, but make them into real ranks (like OW or something). Add top 500 legend as well, and in game leaderboards for comp. Create [b]cosmetic[/b] rewards for the higher ranks as well. Lock the rewards behind a season or something if you really need that to make it profitable. Cool glowing armor, anything that stands out. Make comp worth while. Trails: Destiny 1 trials did not have all of these pool:. It was pure, unmodified, CBMM. It was perfect and gave everyone a fair chance. This is what we need to go back to. Remove the flawless pool, remove win based match making (THIS IS WHY CASUALS CANT GO FLAWLESS!!!!) and make the playlist pure CBMM. Casuals that want to come in here and complain that I just want to stomp, this will actually be the best way to get you guys flawless and trials loot without butchering the playlist. One win resetting wouldn’t be possible, non flawless farming wouldn’t be possible, less cheesey toxic loudouts would be used, and everyone would have a fair and equal shot. A team of toasters trying to get through the trails win based matchmaking will have a horrible time going flawless because they will be more and more likely to match very strong teams as they approach 5 and 6 flawless wins. Remove ALL TRIALS POOLS. [b]Keep freelance, this has been a great was to circumvent the sometimes really crappy LFG community and has been great for a lot of players.[/b] AE? This change was outright stupid. Jumping is not “oppressive”, and under no circumstances should we be catering to 2 sensitivity controller players who botwalk around with fusion and pulses. Bungie you once said something along the line of “we don’t want to buff scouts because the low risk, passive gameplay is boring and bad for the game.” I really hope that you guys realize that almost every update that you have implemented since beyond light has gone so far against the grain of what PvP is in Destiny that it’s disappointing to see. This is a game where movement is half of the skill gap. EVERY GUN (let’s be real and not shout at HCs, controller snipers, SMGS, or whatever), has hilariously large hit boxes and aim assist that would be considered cheating on every other game. To add to that there is no recoil at all. Movement was huge in this game, and let’s be honest, the “grounded” .7 has NO business having a level playing field with 2.0 or even a 1.5. It doesn’t make any sense, a better player should win every time. I am not sure why we are adding tools and systems that nerf skill, and encourage cheesing. “Buildcrafting” is becoming the death of PvP. This is an [b]FPS[/b], a [b]FIRST PERSON SHOOTER[/b], not Smite. There is absolutely no reason that I should have to “build into” my bullets going in a straight like in the same way that I “build into” spamming grenades and high damage abilities, or suppression abilities. It does not make sense and was very obviously implemented to neuter the skill gap that has been created by the in air movement in the game. [b]Every gun[/b], should have perfect in air accuracy in this game, snipers, scouts, pulses, HANDCANNONS ESPECIALLY, should all be accurate in the air. That is this game. People want another “good meta” in reality, that will never come until this system is completely removed, or made easy enough to build into that it is near irrelevant. Lowering the skill gap of games is a very bad move, this system never needed to be added. DAMAGE RESIST/heals: This is game breaking in almost all of its appearances in the crucible. Omni? Still busted. Please fix this Glaives? Way too strong, I am thanking god that they are inconsistent. Restoration? This needs to be reworked in its [b]PVP INTERACTIONS ONLY.[/b] Make some sort of “restoration broken” debuff that appears when you are shot during restoration by another guardian. This would cancel your restoration, and prevent you from requiring it for 1-2 seconds. You absolutely should not be able to heal like you can with loreli, or pop down healing grenades like you can. Again, FPS, not smite. I have a lot of other major sandbox issues but these are my big three. Bungie, I really do enjoy this game at its core. Please, from a player that has been here the whole time, stop doing what you have been doing to the crucible. It is more important to the game than you realize. I know that I am not the most positive community member, but this comes from a place of frustration with recent decisions and this game’s player base. People are leaving, I know that you see it. This game’s PvP has so much potential. Stop listening to the people who just want farm control all day with bows, fusions and stasis nades. Let their play-styles exist, let them have fun because they should, but realize that it isn’t what the game should be. Go back to that beautiful formula that D1 late Y2, the season of opulence, and the 30th anniversary pack all had. This game has so much more potential than is being realized, don’t waste it.[/quote] Once again just because your kd or personal skill went down, Bungies system always remembers you at your peak best and are forever governed on that. Since my halo mlg days made me prepared for this game my kd started mid to high and just stayed high. I don’t know what the lowest kd end of the bell curve feels like but I know what the low elo side feels like as we can’t win games based off our skill since it takes a team to win. System will always expect you to carry.

All they had to do was make 2 playlist. One sbmm control one cbmm control. Test it out and see data.

I don’t care about the crucible but good job using paragraphs. This is the intelligence we need in the forums

the only non braindead take so far.

You make a lot of good points. It’s always interesting to hear that side of the argument from a really good player, who doesn’t look to just stomp and kd farm. I’m good, not great. Used to be a 1.7/1.8, last season dropped to a 1.3. Playing at a 1.5 now. Pretty average. This system feels a little better to a person in my skill range, but I 100% agree that the healing and resist abilities are out of control (no pun intended) right now. I was tempted to send you an invite the other day! Trying to get my damn four streak done for unbroken. I struggle to comfortable with the current meta.

My man have you seen the comp playlist? It is dripping in sweat. As in at Mythic 2 there are only 4500 players ranked higher.than u. Do u know who you match with at that level? John wick x6 😂 and that’s just the solo Q That’s insane and I think just shows how empty that play list is this season. Bungie has killed PvP.

Bump

I'm not going to quote things since it's a LOT of words. But here's my response. AE: I think AE as a concept is good on paper, since it gives less penalty and allows a higher bar to be met for engaging with the movement systems of the game without only having like 2 things that improve effectiveness from the air. The problem with the system is that it hurts both of your cones, aim assist and accuracy, so you're borderline required to hit 60+ in the stat in order to do much of anything from the air, especially with slower firing precision weapons. Really, the 2 things that need to be done is that accuracy cones shouldn't be affected at all by going in the air, just aim assist. It makes things far more consistent feeling while also not forcing people to hard build for the stat, or choose specific weapons (180 HCs) or Aspects to do anything midair. For those who use it, it also softens the St0mp nerf to where there's still a cost, but it's not as steep and forcing almost every weapon to play 100% grounded. I'd also put some AE boosting mods into leg armor, as to allow for easier boosting of the stat, where you're going to sacrifice Holsters or extra CDR from orbs to get it. On Build crafting: I think most complaints about build crafting from the PvP side of the game come from a place of misguided expectations. People want the game to be like CoD or Halo, where you have preset abilities, and in some cases perks that boost them, rather than needing to actually make a build, like an RPG. Destiny, ultimately, at it's core is an Action RPG, just change the 3rd person Adventure gameplay of Zelda, WoW, or SoulsBorne for an FPS game. Ultimately, when D2 leaned more into being closer to a Halo or CoD, the game became really bland and boring, compared to D1 or what's now D2. Ultimately the consequence is that you need to invest more into a given thing, and have a lower valley for certain other spots as a consequence. It's personal preference, I understand. But I think it's overall better focusing harder on the RPG side of things, rather than trying to be the next ultra-esport FPS game. There's already a billion of those out there, and being designed like that almost killed the IP. Trials: Especially considering that there's a Comp Rework (hopefully trying to emulate other modes), I think designing Trials away from being the main Comp mode is the best option. Trials right now is the hardest and slowest way to get Adept loot in the game right now. And I think the big culprit for this is the reliance on Flawless. The mode is designed to need a lot of cannon fodder to be good, consistent means of loot, and isn't set up to be a hardcore ranked mode in general. So I'll just say it, remove Flawless as a requirement for Adept weapons. Keep the Lighthouse and the vanity gear it offers, as well as more drops for Adepts, but have Adepts start rolling in at wins 7+. It removes the need for Card Matchmaking, Flawless Pool, AND allows for skill matching, meaning there's no requirement for cannon fodder to exist for the design to work. Sandbox: Here's where we most heavily disagree, I'll split this into 4 parts. Abilities: I think these are largely fine at the top end, beyond Knockout needing Heavy nerfs in PvP (with PvE buffs), and Juggernaut needing outright removal from the game. The bottom end subclasses also need some help, pointing to the non-Warlock Stasis subs, as well as Stormcaller and Voidwalker. In general, since the Resist nerfs went in today, I think the DR and damage buffs are fine where they're at, since Omni only gives you like 4 effective HP, and most damage buffs that are huge require kills. My only big complaint is that I think there needs to be some better indicator of when you're facing off against most damage buffs, and certain buffs like Mori need to be brought down a little. Primaries: They're actually solidly balanced overall. My only complaints from a "they're overpowered" perspective is 140 HCs and 340 Pulses needing to be brought down, since a 0.67 out to ~42 meters should require all crits, and 140s have a hugely bloated toolkit, especially considering the ease of use present on most. I'd bring down all 3 HC archetypes since the pain points on those are present across the board, but the non-140s need buffs to compensate for global nerfs (bring 120s to 85 crits, and 180s... Something). There's also a lot of pretty useless weapon types that need to be brought up a notch or two (looking mostly at ARs and most 600 SMGs). Specials: I think the main culprits for Specials all need retooling, as well. Shotguns I think should get set pellet spreads and be more defined by their frames, getting more individual differences depending on it. Rapids don't have a role, Precision Buckshot sucking are the big complaints here, mostly. But in general, I'd focus non-LW pellets away from blinting. Precision OHK Specials need to be almost universally nerfed in terms of body damage. Slugs should be doing 70 body, 350-ish crit. All snipers should do base 80-90 body, and have crit multiplier be determined by impact, and I really don't know how to do Linears, beyond putting the body damage down to like 80-90. Fusions are a different beast, suffering vastle different performance based on stats and zoom. Basically 15 zoom requires heavy range investment to be viable, where higher zoom values are the biggest pain points for Range. Really all I'd probably do is normalize zoom at 16 for Fusions and tune ranges and the like from there, probably having High Impacts behave like 120 HCs in having extra built in reach. But I think having Range between about 13-18 meters depending on stat would be a good start, having things increase by archetype. And have High Impacts hit ~19-low 20s meters, since they take 0.96 seconds to charge.

Pretty much agree with almost all of this. Sad that it's getting no attention because casual robots don't care or want to improve because that would be admitting they aren't that good. I sucked majorly in D1 and early D2 as well. My old stats prove this. I got stomped in D1 Trials and D2 Trials of the Nine. Getting stomped pushed me to improve and now I've made it to the Top 500 in multiple game modes. Improving like this was among the most satisfying gameplay that I've ever had because I learned and improved. Sadly, your post will continue to be ignored by both the overwhelmingly casual D2 community and Bungie themselves. They do not care for good players unless they can be put on a camera, told to dance for an audience, monetized, and made to have Bungie and their dying PvP side look good. Good players and their feedback are not desired by Bungie because it's always the exact opposite of what PvP changes Bungie has done so far.

SBMM will take time to normalize players into their correct skill ranking. It isn't going to happen today or tomorrow or probably even in the next week. You got to spend probably multiple years of time overperforming due to being matched with players that were below your skill level. Now, the game considers you to be higher skill, so it is putting you with players that it considers a similar skill. But, the comparative skill level is hard to gauge after a certain point until there are samples against other players of similar skill. As an example, if you (above average) were to fight against random player in a random match, and the game expects you to win that fight 95% of the time, then the game is going to consider you a top player. The game probably has a relatively large sample size of data to create that assumption. However, the game has a much harder time comparing you against other top players because any given match may only have had only 1 player even close to your skill level before SBMM was implemented. All you had to do was be top 8% of players and the average match would generally not have contained any players better than you under the old regime. However, the difference in skill between the top 8% and the top 1% is probably still huge. However, the game doesn't necessarily have data to know that because the top 8% player was crushing everyone in their lobby the same way that the top 1% player was. Now that the game is creating matches full of top 8% players, it will create a hierarchy amongst those players and will eventually be able to make matches that are more balanced among that group. The problem is going to exist at the opposite ends of the bell curve. The worst players and the best players are going to have the least effective SBMM in the short term until the data is better established to indicate where those players are within those extremes. That will get better with time.

Crucible was practically dead before the changes, so your skill gap argument doesn't apply to Destiny. Games don't survive of off the top 5% of the population, they survive because of players who are some in between casual and sweaty af. With what you top guys are suggesting, pvp will end up where they claim it is now. They'd go back cbmm, you'd continue to destroy new/casual/players who just want to play against people of similar skill. They'll continue to depart from pvp all together (they already started leaving before the change) and you then you'll be left with only sweats, long wait times and lag, because only hardcore pvp guys are left, which is what most hardcore guys are complaining about now. If you want pvp to survive in the long run, this needs to happen. I guess Bungie could always put a bigger emphasis on new maps and other content for pvp, but I don't see that happening, so we'll have to go with what's been going on for years.

Downvoted, not even going to waste my time with this one nothing factual and a load of crap.

Too long to care plus this is the forums and from what i can tell, no one cares. Play a different game if you don’t like change.

Apart from posts that were just whining.. This is worst take I have seen. You never disappoint.. My suggestion would be git gud, skill issue, or you shouldn't post after losing a game..