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originally posted in: Bungie Please ( the crucible )
9/1/2022 9:30:32 PM
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I'm not going to quote things since it's a LOT of words. But here's my response. AE: I think AE as a concept is good on paper, since it gives less penalty and allows a higher bar to be met for engaging with the movement systems of the game without only having like 2 things that improve effectiveness from the air. The problem with the system is that it hurts both of your cones, aim assist and accuracy, so you're borderline required to hit 60+ in the stat in order to do much of anything from the air, especially with slower firing precision weapons. Really, the 2 things that need to be done is that accuracy cones shouldn't be affected at all by going in the air, just aim assist. It makes things far more consistent feeling while also not forcing people to hard build for the stat, or choose specific weapons (180 HCs) or Aspects to do anything midair. For those who use it, it also softens the St0mp nerf to where there's still a cost, but it's not as steep and forcing almost every weapon to play 100% grounded. I'd also put some AE boosting mods into leg armor, as to allow for easier boosting of the stat, where you're going to sacrifice Holsters or extra CDR from orbs to get it. On Build crafting: I think most complaints about build crafting from the PvP side of the game come from a place of misguided expectations. People want the game to be like CoD or Halo, where you have preset abilities, and in some cases perks that boost them, rather than needing to actually make a build, like an RPG. Destiny, ultimately, at it's core is an Action RPG, just change the 3rd person Adventure gameplay of Zelda, WoW, or SoulsBorne for an FPS game. Ultimately, when D2 leaned more into being closer to a Halo or CoD, the game became really bland and boring, compared to D1 or what's now D2. Ultimately the consequence is that you need to invest more into a given thing, and have a lower valley for certain other spots as a consequence. It's personal preference, I understand. But I think it's overall better focusing harder on the RPG side of things, rather than trying to be the next ultra-esport FPS game. There's already a billion of those out there, and being designed like that almost killed the IP. Trials: Especially considering that there's a Comp Rework (hopefully trying to emulate other modes), I think designing Trials away from being the main Comp mode is the best option. Trials right now is the hardest and slowest way to get Adept loot in the game right now. And I think the big culprit for this is the reliance on Flawless. The mode is designed to need a lot of cannon fodder to be good, consistent means of loot, and isn't set up to be a hardcore ranked mode in general. So I'll just say it, remove Flawless as a requirement for Adept weapons. Keep the Lighthouse and the vanity gear it offers, as well as more drops for Adepts, but have Adepts start rolling in at wins 7+. It removes the need for Card Matchmaking, Flawless Pool, AND allows for skill matching, meaning there's no requirement for cannon fodder to exist for the design to work. Sandbox: Here's where we most heavily disagree, I'll split this into 4 parts. Abilities: I think these are largely fine at the top end, beyond Knockout needing Heavy nerfs in PvP (with PvE buffs), and Juggernaut needing outright removal from the game. The bottom end subclasses also need some help, pointing to the non-Warlock Stasis subs, as well as Stormcaller and Voidwalker. In general, since the Resist nerfs went in today, I think the DR and damage buffs are fine where they're at, since Omni only gives you like 4 effective HP, and most damage buffs that are huge require kills. My only big complaint is that I think there needs to be some better indicator of when you're facing off against most damage buffs, and certain buffs like Mori need to be brought down a little. Primaries: They're actually solidly balanced overall. My only complaints from a "they're overpowered" perspective is 140 HCs and 340 Pulses needing to be brought down, since a 0.67 out to ~42 meters should require all crits, and 140s have a hugely bloated toolkit, especially considering the ease of use present on most. I'd bring down all 3 HC archetypes since the pain points on those are present across the board, but the non-140s need buffs to compensate for global nerfs (bring 120s to 85 crits, and 180s... Something). There's also a lot of pretty useless weapon types that need to be brought up a notch or two (looking mostly at ARs and most 600 SMGs). Specials: I think the main culprits for Specials all need retooling, as well. Shotguns I think should get set pellet spreads and be more defined by their frames, getting more individual differences depending on it. Rapids don't have a role, Precision Buckshot sucking are the big complaints here, mostly. But in general, I'd focus non-LW pellets away from blinting. Precision OHK Specials need to be almost universally nerfed in terms of body damage. Slugs should be doing 70 body, 350-ish crit. All snipers should do base 80-90 body, and have crit multiplier be determined by impact, and I really don't know how to do Linears, beyond putting the body damage down to like 80-90. Fusions are a different beast, suffering vastle different performance based on stats and zoom. Basically 15 zoom requires heavy range investment to be viable, where higher zoom values are the biggest pain points for Range. Really all I'd probably do is normalize zoom at 16 for Fusions and tune ranges and the like from there, probably having High Impacts behave like 120 HCs in having extra built in reach. But I think having Range between about 13-18 meters depending on stat would be a good start, having things increase by archetype. And have High Impacts hit ~19-low 20s meters, since they take 0.96 seconds to charge.
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  • Perfect Trials take

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  • I’m gonna come back and thank this man for disagreeing and not being an idiot about it. I wish more of these gamers had this mentality.

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  • Edited by Meaga: 9/1/2022 10:09:40 PM
    I disagree on the build crafting point. Yea destiny and always had RPG aspects to it however, this game was successful because of the marriage of concepts. I mean what I’m going to say in no disrespect but I feel like bungie has spat in my side of the community’s faces. Beyond light started the first part of destiny history where it was deemed okay to have CRAZY abilities because you “built into it”. It started with stasis builds, then invis was buffed as well was OS titan. Loreli came next. We also have the warlocks with the million auto pilot abilities. We don’t have “buildcrafting”, we have a series of GAMEBREAKING abilities that happen to work in conjunction with one another. “I build crafted restoration” Your helmet heals, your grenade heals and at one point you class ability item was healing you on top of all of that. That’s not a build craft, that’s spamming every healing ability in the game. “I built into stealth and Invis”, So you have about 3 different ways to build into Invisibility and a chest piece that also lets you regen those abilities infinitely. You also get damage resistance while invis. I only took two glaring examples and didn’t make an exhaustive list however, my point is still made. “Build crafting” is an excuse for RIDICULOUS abilities to be put into the game and allowed to exist without check. If this was a true build crafting game, there would be counter builds for every thing, BUT IT IS NOT. There is a difference between an “rpg shooter with cool abilities”, and real buildcrafting. Smite is an example of build crafting, and the whole game is designed around it. Destiny is designed around its gunplay, it’s movement, and then LASTLY it’s abilities. We need to stop lying to ourselves about that. This is where I get back to “catering to casuals and bad players”. Like I had said, we do not have build crafting we have a series of stupid abilities that all do similar things. Very low skill entry, grind free to acquire, GUN SKILL NEGATING ABILITIES. That is the common denominator here. I am 100000% sure that this is bungie’s plan due to a few interactions that I have had, I wouldn’t be this upset about something without a reason.

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  • [quote]I disagree on the build crafting point. Yea destiny and always had RPG aspects to it however, this game was successful because of the marriage of concepts. I mean what I’m going to say in no disrespect but I feel like bungie has spat in my side of the community’s faces. Beyond light started the first part of destiny history where it was deemed okay to have CRAZY abilities because you “built into it”. It started with stasis builds, then invis was buffed as well was OS titan. Loreli came next. We also have the warlocks with the million auto pilot abilities.[/quote] To be entirely fair, all of these bar Lorely have been nerfed to generally adequate levels (bar Overshield if you stack multiple "copies"). Although most of the overpowered stuff isn't stuff being built into for the most part. Only example I can think of is Rime Titans when that was the popular thing to do, since you dumped all of your cooldowns for a big overshield. [quote]We don’t have “buildcrafting”, we have a series of GAMEBREAKING abilities that happen to work in conjunction with one another.[/quote] Being entirely fair, our definitions of broken are a bit different, since IMHO the only bad culprits right now are Lorely, Knockout, and Juggernaut. Nothing on Warlock is really that powerful, neither "autopilot" is anything I'd consider super broken, since one got nerfed with 3.0 and the other hasn't ever been particularly amazing, especially since activating it is all sorts of buggy and janky. Hunters only really have Enhanced Gunslinger, since Invis only really breaks with the new exotic MAYBE, since Omni I think gives something like 4 effective HP at best now? Don't quote me on the actual numbers, but the DR on Omni is almost negligible, off the top of my head (since it was fixed today). [quote]“I build crafted restoration” Your helmet heals, your grenade heals and at one point you class ability item was healing you on top of all of that. That’s not a build craft, that’s spamming every healing ability in the game.[/quote] See, I think you look at it from the wrong angle. You don't really "build craft" Restoration, since Restoration isn't really a build, per se. My bigger point was more what you do for a given playstyle. Just using your example, there's more ways than Lorely Titan to build for healing off a lot of damage. Lorely + truckloads of healing is a way to do it. Dawnblade does it okay, as well. Or you can go a completely different direction and use Devour on Voidlock. Your angle would be like me saying, for example. "I build into Bleed" for an Elden Ring setup, therefore always using one of a few really obvious options. Where doing a lot of burst damage through that one status can be achieved in multiple ways through multiple styles. [quote]“I built into stealth and Invis”, So you have about 3 different ways to build into Invisibility and a chest piece that also lets you regen those abilities infinitely. You also get damage resistance while invis. I only took two glaring examples and didn’t make an exhaustive list however, my point is still made. “Build crafting” is an excuse for RIDICULOUS abilities to be put into the game and allowed to exist without check.[/quote] And said chest piece got hit to where the DR is close to negligible, so you're not using it to face-tank a lot of stuff as you hold W. And frankly, I think that's a slight exaggeration, using outliers as an example (see Lorely). Most of the pieces aren't as strong as pre-nerf Renewals, or pre-nerf Omni. I also think I neglected to mention armor mods, since those are also a bit of a thing (namely choosing between slightly more efficient ability loops, or boosts to guns and how you're wanting to focus those). There's a lot of hidden meat you can do with the game, especially when taking your view off of "I build for x keyword" and more "I build for x fantasy/aesthetic/playstyle." [quote]If this was a true build crafting game, there would be counter builds for every thing, BUT IT IS NOT. There is a difference between an “rpg shooter with cool abilities”, and real buildcrafting. Smite is an example of build crafting, and the whole game is designed around it. Destiny is designed around its gunplay, it’s movement, and then LASTLY it’s abilities. We need to stop lying to ourselves about that.[/quote] MOBAs also have the item shops with them, unlike Destiny, WoW, or even the SoulsBorne PvP that has that cult following. And IDK about older Souls games, but I know a lot of the stuff Elden Ring has is like D2 in not having any real hard counter, only exception being super heavy armor being able to attack through certain attacks. And while Resto I'd say needs to be stopped while actively taking damage just in general, Invis already has a LOT of stuff that marks you, leaving the "harder to see" part out. Jolt and Blind aren't IMHO strong enough to warrant hard counters, and Freezing has a small window to take advantage of it bar supers, and most means of reliably getting it are either easily avoidable, or slow projectiles. [quote]This is where I get back to “catering to casuals and bad players”. Like I had said, we do not have build crafting we have a series of stupid abilities that all do similar things. Very low skill entry, grind free to acquire, GUN SKILL NEGATING ABILITIES. That is the common denominator here. I am 100000% sure that this is bungie’s plan due to a few interactions that I have had, I wouldn’t be this upset about something without a reason.[/quote] I'd agree with you if the abilities were consistently negating kills. Right now, it's only Striker neutral game consistently and reliably doing that without being stopped by good movement/positioning (see Shadebinder). Otherwise, Omni got nerfed, Lorely needs a nerf but a sniper headshot or face full of buckshot/fusion bolts kinda ignores that, and... Yyyyeah, that's about it, at least in the realm of what I'd call unreasonable, considering the design goal was ~60/40 guns to abilities. At least my lobbies are ~70/30 guns to abilities for kills, least until supers start flying. And frankly, there's less abilities flying and negating gunfights than Halo or especially Overwatch, least in my personal experience.

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