I hear ya'. If only there was some sort of website where people could communicate and perhaps make plans to meet up for said raid, perhaps through a mass updating messaging/ chat system...unfortunately, to my knowledge, no such thing exists...

First off I think this is a really interesting issue and I think it is a testament to the already established Destiny Community that we are able to discuss it so reasonably! I think that this question would have been answered in far less measured tone from users on a Call of Duty subreddit. Anyway heres my quids-in. Also let me say that I am in the same position as you guys. I am lacking in the "friends to play Destiny with" department as well and have been messaging users on Reddit trying to form my own Clan or join one before release. Is it a pain in the arse? Yes. But like nobody in the world says ever, this ain't my first Rodeo. (I hate myself for saying that). I have played WoW, EVE, Guildwars, Diablo etc and they have given me a chance to be part of a scene where non-match-made teams are very common. Also note I am not a PC Snob I just think that a different perspective on things from me and my previous experience might help put Bungie's decision in context. I also think unless you have been involved with that type of thing before I think it could be really tricky to understand what possible benefit lack of matchmaking can bring. Without trying it for yourself it really does just come across as a massive cockblock which alienates a lot of Guardians. I totally get it. I would be the same. I'll try and marshall my arguments as bet I can and share what I've learned from those games about Raiding and hard content and why I think lack of matchmaking is worth it. On the one hand I really do understand it could be incredibly frustrating for a player to want to take part in Raiding and not be able to due to a lack of people to Raid with. That is not a position anyone wants to be in. As well as that I think that the arguments put forth by the community so far are all very reasonable ones. Does the lack of matchmaking actually just create a system out-with the game itself where players have to faff about and create pugs themselves? Yes. And again that's not ideal for a lot of players and creates what could be argued is an unnecessary headache and a degree of alienation. The line of argument I tend to agree with however outlines benefits which I believe outweigh the cons, not that the cons don't exist. First of all, to me, one of Destiny's most endearing and impressive qualities is its versatility and choice. What I mean by this is that a player can jump into Destiny after work or at the Weekends and do something to suit their mood while still progressing their character. Whether it be increasing Faction Reputation for gear, jumping into The Crucible and gaining marks, exploring an area and running into Public Events or running Strikes with other players. People can even just hang out in the tower and chat or revisit some story missions. I think in this is something we can all agree on, that is to say all of us are already drawn to this aspect of the game and have been impressed by what Bungie have created. I think the popularity of the Beta and it's very positive reception are testament to that. Not only that but Bungie has made the worlds and their respective content easier to traverse and enjoy than ever before meaning that hopping between all these different activities is quick and easy. Wide open areas and the ability to quickly zoom off on a Sparrow to another area really do contribute to an overwhelmingly smooth game experience so far. So on a side-note, good job well done so far Bungie! As mentioned before however Strikes, PvP, Story and Exploration are all activities that a Guardian can choose from and it is important to remember that Raiding is meant to be one of those activities as well. Raiding is, if you will, another flavour of Destiny players can taste. It helps, in my opinion, to remember that Raiding content has never really been an easy or casual flavour in any game. First of all I think it helps to view Raids as what they really are. Raids, in any game have always existed in the form of high difficulty endgame content on which your success depends on several factors: The group's experience in-game. The group's knowledge of the content itself. The group's technical execution and skill. The group's coordination. The success of a Raiding player group should depend on every one of these factors being at a high level. Some people like content that is really -blam!-ing hard. That's what Raids are for (IMO). Raids are not, I believe, meant to be something that you can hop into with match-made pubs and quickly run through, microphone or no microphone, good players or not. In fact in my opinion the benchmark for any content claiming to be a Raid has always been the fact that you actually cannot complete it without an exceptionally well coordinated team who know the tactics and strategies relating to the content and who have practised together at length. If you could get match-made into a six man Fireteam and run the Raid in a night I don't think it is a Raid anymore. I think it is a Hard Strike. I think that Guardians who want hard match-made content can play difficult Strikes and Night Strikes, after all I think that's why they are there and from what I played Stikes are not always easy even at level 8. It might help if I highlight what I think (only my opinion of course) Raids and Raiding groups are all about given my previous experience with Raiding in other games: A Raid is about finding like minded people who are, like you, committed to beating the games most challenging content. A Raid group will use Voice communication and rely on it heavily. It is the only way to communicate quickly and effectively enough to cope with the challenges the content provides. Without it, the coordination of the group will be very difficult to maintain at an adequate level. A Raiding group will meet regularly to try and beat the Raid content and will be unsuccessful for some time at higher difficulties. The Raid group will actually get to know the people behind the screen and learn to work with these people. This is important as Raiding can create friction between the guys when stuck on a particularly tricky bit of content. Eventually the group will beat the content and at that point the group will focus on gearing up its members with the best loot from that given Raid, ready for the next one. The hard work pays off and the players get the best gear and will come out the other end a better player as well. The best part about Raiding for me is that you end up in a group of people with whom you have trained and worked hard with and that you can call your friends. You play with them regularly and look forward to your Raids with them. Nerdy as it sounds it is quite a nice thing to be looking forward to something like "Tuesday night Raids" or the weekends when you all just -blam!- about in PvP. Helps get you through the work day without peeling your eyelids off. I think thats one of the best ways to enjoy any game, with friends made within it. As you can probably tell, my view of Raiding is that it's a commitment and a hobby, not just a game. It's as much about the people as it is about the actual content. I think communities like I have just described are too few and too far between, especially on the console scene. We can change that. Now that might be fine and well you might say, but I can't do any of that sweet hardcore Destiny shenanigans! I don't have anyone to play with! I feel you. It is pretty shitty. But we're not helpless. You can do what I have been doing and look around for people who are interested, they are out there. Hop on http://www.bungie.net/ and look at Clans or jump over to http://www.reddit.com/r/Fireteams and see whats going on. If that doesn't work, hell, just join me! There is, as they say, a whole world out there (or in our case in your PC / Console). I know it can be a ball-ache to have to organise your gaming and Raiding like a bloody School Trip but I don't think Raiding will be the best it can be with matchmaking. The content has to be merciless and you and your soon-to-be-made buddies will have to lube up and learn to -blam!- the game collectively and as a team, and sadly I don't think you can really get that from just matchmaking. If match-making were dumbass-free then I think it could be different. But sadly the world is full of twits and you can bet that they will come to The City as well. And one last thing from experiences in WoW let me just say this: More often than not Pug raids, like the dog breed, can be cute at times but can also get really -blam!-ing ugly as well. Harsh I know but in WoW's case at least, very very true. The cause? Lack of Voice and being match-made with genuine -blam!-wits of the highest degree. Now to the issue of me comparing Destiny with other games. You might argue that the practises of other games do not constitute in any way that Bungie should model Destiny after them. You're right they don't. I just think some systems in other games for Raiding and the like are actually quite good, simple as that. Then again, that only me :D If you agree or disagree let me know! ExoPersona

I don't see why this is such an issue. Some people don't get into the whole social aspect of online gaming. End game content should still be available for these people. Obviously if you're worried about getting with a noob party or not being able to communicate with randoms then you can still form your own group manually. I can't see anyway matchmaking could harm the raid experience.

A lot of people ignore invites and a lot people don't want to join a clan. Some people just want to jump straight in. And I believe there should be an option to do it co-op or not.

What's really dumb is that they have this, yet they have no proximity or text chat to communicate with people. I don't want to send people invites, ask them if they want to raid, and then get turned down.

What a total tool, barrier of entry my ass. If they keep this no matchmaking garbage there better be some sort of LFG tool to you know, interact with other players, since you can't even speak to them in a "Social" district of the map.

As someone whose friends don't play video games, I personally don't have 5 other people who would play a Raid with me. So a lack of matchmaking in Raids means I will never get to experience them, as simple as that. Because sending friend requests to random people is exactly the same as having a matchmaking system in the first place when talking about cooperative barriers.

So, if I read that correctly, a good party should be able to finish it at about 3 hours on normal difficulty? That's very different from the test I heard about where it took a couple of players 13-16 hours on easy without being able to complete it. Imo, if it would take about 3 hours on normal without knowing the strategies to the raid (I assume he's talking about Vault of Glass), or let's say 5 hours average with an average-skilled party, I don't think it will be a big problem to create a party. And in turn, that wouldn't make the lack of matchmaking as much of a problem as some claim it to be.

You know what i dont get, why do Bungie staff avoid posting anything in the Destiny forums? Its either they post in the community forum unrelated to destiny, or they go and talk about destiny on neogaf or ign forums or some other gaming forum. The disconnect is so real

Play a strike and examine your teammates, if they are good invite them to your raid squad. Good Heavens, even when you go into explore mode there will be players that will not stop sending you fire team invitations. I joined only to see if they are good. The ones that were ok, I made friends with, the ones that were bad and annoying, I left them. It is not hard to find good players. You just need to get that lazy arse and begin hunting for good players, become their friends, and proceed to do raids. Besides, games are for fun and socialize. I hate it when people take them very seriously, like if their lives depended on it. I just want to have some laughs and make new friends, not being harassed by a angry serious no life dude.

[quote]FACT - An embarrassingly large number of people on this forum could recieve $10,000 checks in the mail from Bungie, and they would immediately complain about the type of paper used for the envelope.[/quote] wut ?

[quote]It takes less than a minute to send a friend invite, or a request to join a clan. All you have to do is make a decent first impression during a strike, crucible, or mission.[/quote] But that's sort of the whole point. Bungie are suggesting that the raid needs 'friends'; dedicated people who put in the 'investment' and 'coordination' required to succeed. If you're telling me to add random people in-game, how are these random people my 'friends'? How am I to know they are 'coordinated' and 'invested'? I am not to know, and the idea that a 'friend' is more 'coordinated' and 'invested' in a game than somebody who is not a 'friend' is not even logical. A good player is a good player whether they're your friend or not. :/ If you're adding random people, online, in-game, whatever, just to attempt the raid, how is that any different from matchmaking? It isn't. You'd just be joining random people in the same way. That's why none of this makes sense. Whatever Bungie wanted out of this, it certainly has not gone their way. We aren't going to have countless groups of coordinated clans comprised of deep friendships and tactical greatness, and gracious groups of 'coordinated' 'friends' attempting this. We've just ended up matchmaking online with a bunch of randoms, called them clans, added them to our friends list, and are waiting until September. It's madness. :/

What a great way to start a dialogue. By insulting me. I'm not lazy. I don't want Bungie to hand me anything. And I'm certainly not whining. I want a MMing system for Raids. Because plugging in a WoW like raiding system is as old and archaic as WoW is. It's excessively restrictive and locks people out of content they are paying for.

I foresee a lot of random friend invites to people who seemed to do OK. Then a lot of frustration with them in raids. Followed by a lot of awkward friend list deleting so they don't ever try to ask you to come back. 6 people is a lot more intimate than a standard mmo raid. Most of the people in my guilds for mmos I would never take to a hard event. Most are failures the handful of good players carry... which is why i'm kinda leaning towards not being in a guild for Destiny. I don't want people to think they can play with me just because i'm in their guild.

http://www.bungie.net/en/Forum/Post/67090736/0/0 Funny how 1 person not being a lazy ass whining about no voice chat/matchmaking has led to a huge thread for the sole purpose of *shocker* teaming up, in a simple manner, using the current system. Stunning how the forum can be used to actually do something productive instead of being just about people that want a free ride.

I see both sides of the fence here. I agree about the point of non speaking randoms in a raid would be nonsense, but also not having that option worries me a little. I'm hearing you guys say that making friends on here and putting together a fire team is easy and can be done in minutes, but that hasn't been the case for me. I played the Beta every day, sent out countless fire team invites, joined a clan (maybe I chose the wrong one), bought a brand new headset, started posting in these forums, and have only made two friends. Neither if which have ever been on and playing at the same time I have. A close friend if mine is the only other person I know with a PS4 so I sent him one of my Beta codes and we pretty much played as a two man fire team. The game is awesome and I love it and can't wait until launch day, but I kinda see the "whiner's" point. If they're paying for the content they shouldn't be held back from enjoying it because they're having trouble getting a consistent team together.

I have been a solo gamer since i started gaming in 94' i was like 3-4, i sucked at all those games back in the day since they were hard as -blam!-, i just used to watch my brother beat them all. Most likely my brother is gonna get his PS4 and we are gonna run thru this game pretty fast, since you know we basically read each others mind, so just going doing our own thing and still beating a game is second nature to us. sucks these raids can't be 2-6 players needed, instead of a mandatory 6 players.