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Edytowany przez użytkownika xVARYSx: 12/4/2014 1:09:52 PM
337

The gear treadmill and why "clearly you've never played an MMO" is a misguided response to those upset by recent news

So I've been trying to put my finger on exactly what is so irritating about this patch to me -- someone who played WoW for 8 years, quite actively (well over a year of /played time), someone who should have (ostensibly) been prepared for this kind of gear reset. Here's the thing: Destiny isn't WoW. As much as I might wish it were a lot more like WoW, it's being managed by a company with no experience in MMOs (or MMO-lite games, which is more accurate for Destiny) or loot-based games, and it's showing. There are a billion things that have been learned over the course of 15ish years of MMOs and 10 years of WoW that have been utterly ignored by Bungie in their development of Destiny, like RNG mitigation, social tools, and encounter design, but those really aren't the issue here. The issue is that Bungie has an absolute metric buttload to learn about communication. People keep comparing Destiny to games like WoW, saying that anyone who is surprised or shocked or frustrated with the latest news of exotic resets has clearly never played another MMO. Otherwise, obviously that person would understand the nature of the gear treadmill and that this was bound to happen. And sure, maybe it was. But the difference between WoW (or nearly any other well-managed MMO) and Destiny is quite simply that Blizzard wouldn't make a change like this without: a) forewarning the community in ample enough time to get feedback before implementation was a week away b) ensuring the community didn't throw away invested time in something that was only going to last a week, or c) releasing the information from the horse's mouth before it got out through a third-party like Game Informer. News like this is pretty massive. In a game like WoW, this type of change would be saved for a major expansion -- one that comes years after the release of the previous, not three months afterward. Beyond that, the nature of the exotic change is quite a bit different from the nature of a gear reset in a traditional MMO. A gear reset in WoW typically changes very little of the basic playstyle of your character. You might lose a set bonus that makes one of your spells work slightly differently, or you might end up short of a haste breakpoint that slightly alters your optimal spell rotation. But generally speaking, a resto druid is going to play like a resto druid, regardless of what gear you're wearing or what weapon you're wielding. But in Destiny, guns dictate your playstyle far more than your subclass, or even your main class. The way you play with Thorn, for example, is utterly different from the way you play with Invective. Exotics, in particular, typically alter your playstyle in pretty noticeable ways. So when Bungie says, "oh btdubs, if you still want to use those guns you're going to have to turn them in for New Gun+ and then level them again," you're not experiencing the same feeling as going from 85 to 90 when Mists of Pandaria comes out. Bungie has just limited the options you have for different playstyles in the future -- and that is only considering the having-to-choose-which-exotics-to-relevel bit. That's not including the swath of Vanguard and Crucible and raid legendaries that will be falling to the wayside, into obsolescence, once you're doing hard mode content or Iron Banner next time around. Will there be another gun similar to Vision of Confluence? Sure, but it won't be the same gun. Is Crota's End going to drop a legendary that feels like my 3-tube, Flared Magwell, Clown Cartridge Admonisher III? Maybe so, but I doubt I'll be lucky enough to end up with those same perks (RNGesus plz). The point is, Bungie dropped the ball, not just with this change, but with making sure the community knew what was going on ahead of time. Worse still, they released an update that would cause players to dismantle extra exotics and spend glimmer and materials and time upgrading current weapons, knowing full well that they were about to release an update that would render all of that effort null and void. Other threads have popped up offering perfectly good solutions to this feeling of being shafted - just adding more bubbles to previous exotics, or making sure that only players with fully-upgraded exotics could exchange them for the new tier version. But Bungie didn't do those things, and there's really not enough time for them to make changes like that in the week before The Dark Below releases. Will it get fixed post-release? Maybe, but the damage has already been done. People have already invested Exotic Shards into guns and will now have to invest two more Exotic Shards into the new versions, when they could have just waited a week and saved a shard, and time, and glimmer. The lesson here is that we can't trust Bungie. It hurts me to say that, but as of right now, I feel like playing this game at all is gambling that Bungie doesn't have a plan to wipe away my time investment in a week. And that's not something that's going to change after the expansion is released -- it's something that's going to last as long as we play this game. But that's just it, isn't it? As long as we play this game. I fear, for a lot of people, that time has just run out. TLW: Bungie needs to learn to communicate and stop making bass-ackward design decisions without taking care to inform the community (or worse, deliberately not inform them) first. (i read this post on reddit and give all credit to reddit user seraph 1337) EDIT 1: Im glad this post is taking off like it is on reddit, if you want to read what destiny redditors have to say about this situation here's the link to the OP's reddit post. http://www.reddit.com/r/DestinyTheGame/comments/2o8bnf/the_gear_treadmill_and_why_clearly_youve_never/
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  • Agree completely They really messed up And it seems that they take one step forward(the exotic buff patch) and 5 steps backwards(this patch)

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  • Bump. This was a really good read compared to a lot of other posts.

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  • Thanks for taking the time to make this post. That takes a lot of nerve, considering that anything even remotely critical of Destiny earns a torrent of scorn from the slavish fans who are too afraid to say a negative word about this deeply flawed game. I hope the attention your post gets reaches some sort of critical mass and makes people sit up and realize how badly they're being taken for a ride by these two companies.

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  • Here's an ideal why don't you all reserve your judgement for after the dlc? You know, wait ( I know that's practicly impossible for some) try it out and then bitch about it.

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    • Thank you for posting this.

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    • Bump. Everyone who plays destiny needs to read this

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    • Bump

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    • Edytowany przez użytkownika TPoppaPuff: 12/4/2014 8:45:23 PM
      Here's the biggest issue with Destiny and ultimately the frustration that stems from this game: It's a loot game without any loot and it's a game you're expected to put hundreds of hours in but they only created ten hours of content, half of which practically becomes obsolete by level 20.

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      • I can agree with your thesis, and whether you're for the reset or against it, Bungie definitely mishandled the launch of this DLC. BUT [quote]when Bungie says, "oh btdubs, if you still want to use those guns you're going to have to turn them in for New Gun+ and then level them again," you're not experiencing the same feeling as going from 85 to 90 when Mists of Pandaria comes out.[/quote]Leveling an exotic weapon back up between 30 and 32 might very well be similar to the grind of leveling up in WoW from 85-90, and now it's 90-100. The gear in Destiny is what levels, not you. Resetting the exotic is like coming into the new expansion as a level 85 when the new meta is 90. Though, a fair compromise would definitely be to reduce the grind on old-gun-made-new, maybe by simply adding extra nodes or wiping all the DAMAGE UPGRADE nodes, or causing the weapon to be as strong as a blank Dark Below exotic when traded. I just think you should only be rewarded for upgrading weapons while they're relevant, rather than making old gear automatically relevant to the new content. What's the point of the new gear if you like your old stuff [i]and[/i] you don't even have to level it? People at level 30 with maxed gear already have an advantage the minute the new DLC drops. Isn't that enough?

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      • Bump

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      • Awesome post and you're absolutely right about the lack of communication. I've never done mmo's before this, which like you said it really isn't, so yea the reset surprised me. Not pissed about it, but not thrilled either.

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      • This isn't an MMO

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        • Bump

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        • Edytowany przez użytkownika Malacite: 12/6/2014 6:20:36 AM
          Good post, and I have to say I'm disappointed in Bungie's decision making here. I can deal with the Raid gear being outdated, that's standard practice (even though I personally hate that being an FFXI veteran and am forced to put up with it in XIV) what *is* intolerable is having our exotics that we worked so hard for essentially become worthless for the next Iron Banner & Raid (HM). What they should have done with the exotic shards is used them to upgrade existing maxed out gear to the new light level, perhaps through a weekly quest or something so you can't just automatically crank up everything you own and say to hell with the new Raid (or have the items you need to do this drop from the Raid, that works too). In particular, knowing that both my Gjallarhorn and Ice Breaker will be worthless in the upcoming 32 raid is demoralizing. EDIT: OK so we are actually getting an option to upgrade but the way they're going about it is ridiculous. I don't mind having to do something to be able to upgrade it, instead of just paying a simple cost and thereby bypassing the need for the new items entirely. But resetting all progress is just beyond the pale. It takes too much effort as it is to just to get one up to the point where you have all the abilities, nevermind max stats - As much as I want to use my Gjallarhorn in End of Crota, I don't know if I can stomach having to re-level it along with the rest of my rather extensive collection (I'm only missing like 2 or 3 weapons and about half the armor, maybe a bit more). Furthermore, is Bungie simply going to repeat the process yet again when House of Wolves comes out?!

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        • Completely agree with all points made, however, I do think they have time to fix this issue and surprise us. My favorite compromises are: add another bubble to the old exotics' upgrade trees (for a price), or only reset to the final damage upgrade. Why should collect the exact same mats, for the exact same upgrades? this is stupid and a waste of time. Like another poster said, Bungie/Activision know they've given us a game void of substantial content (outside the VoG, which has by this point been beaten like a dead horse), and instead of giving us actual content, they're going to let us grind more. This is not the game they advertised. It honestly seems like they purposely used hyperboles and bait and switch tactics, which big industries are prone to do.

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        • I agree. I'm annoyed with this idea. I only recently got the iron banner gear (which looks sweet), but apparently will need to get the new legendary gear to reach the higher levels (if I've understood them correctly). My Mida Multi Tool is fully maxed and I love it as it is ... but in order to have a higher damage weapon, I'm gonna have to grind again. Who comes up with these ideas?!

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          • Nah, been involved with games where developers express their ideas about add ons anf patches and the gamers involved would always complain, having it changed. It turned into this meta warfare thing where you had to steer forum posters like a politician to protect against selfish suggestions. You guys are bitching about it cause you dont have the power to meddle with it. I rather my developer make the changes and tell me those changes. If they messed up, we discuss on forums then change it again. I hate democratic development. It destroys the game. It happened to Dust 514, I dont want it happening here.

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            • People gotta read this. Bump

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            • Edytowany przez użytkownika Duke3008: 12/4/2014 7:16:49 PM
              SInce you've clearly referenced my thread ill just copy and paste it THOUGH, i do agree with your point that Bungie should have communicated this earlier and clearly to prevent such upsets from happening. NOTE: If you are here to Say "ITS NOT AN MMORPG" Thank you and goodbye Common features[edit] "Although modern MMORPGs sometimes differ dramatically from their antecedents, many of them share some basic characteristics. These include several common features: persistent game environment, some form of progression, social interaction within the game, in-game culture, system architecture, membership in a group, and character customization." "A massively multiplayer online game (also called MMO and MMOG) is a multiplayer video game which is capable of supporting large numbers of players simultaneously. By necessity, they are played on the Internet. MMOs usually have at least one persistent world, however some games differ." People who keep insisting that Destiny is Not an mmorpg because it lacks the content of mmorpg such as WOW, you are not doing your points a solid because you are simply confirming that it has the same qualities as said mmorpgs only its an a CONDENSED scale, where as its still the exact same scenario, just with a smaller amount of content/time to work with. just because it is smaller doesn't mean it's not an mmo when you can clearly see it has every aspect that you would come to find in most mmorpgs such as Heavy multiplier aspects, character customization, character progression, raids, quests, ect.... This is just the way the cookie crumbles, this is how it should be, each time there is an expansion/level cap increase your weapons and equipment always become irrelevant and the search for relevant equipment begins again, only, people who are already geared to the maxed at the last CAP have a nice head start at becoming relevant again as they will have an easier time completing high level tasks that rewards players with relevant gear. If you could just instantly make your level 30 gear equal to the new level 32 gear, what would be the point??? Thats not going to happen so what exactly are you asking for here? Quite frankly i was shocked that bungie even gave an option to keep anything current relevant which was good on there part, not something to complain. V Solid Rant i had here about the ideology of these systems in place V "So wait, you are saying it makes sense to do gradual upgrades to a weapon by 20-30 attack and spend hours on it. You max it out. Then one day you're told you have to take the same weapon, reset from zero, add a bunch of extra barriers to upgrade it just to move it 1-2 upgrade nodes? That makes sense???" Yes, i am saying it makes sense. The devs want to create a need to play the expansion for the weapons, the gear, the armor, thats what this game is all about, so if you could simply not even worry about the grinding for new gear to become relevant again, that would SERVERY decrease your experience whether you realize it or not, as this is the ENTIRE draw of Destiny. You are not still playing the game because you enjoy doing the same missions over and over again, no. It is in the very effort and trials of getting these rewards that your (Maybe) subconscious enjoyment lies whether you realize it or not, this is the way the game is made and this is what the developers know. They have focus groups to confirm these kinds of things. This^ " if you could simply not even worry about the grinding for new gear to become relevant again, that would SERVERY decrease your experience whether you realize it or not, as this is the ENTIRE draw of Destiny. You are not still playing the game because you enjoy doing the same missions over and over again, no. It is in the very effort and trials of getting these rewards that your (Maybe) subconscious enjoyment lies whether you realize it or not, this is the way the game is made and this is what the developers know. They have focus groups to confirm these kinds of things." Dont get me wrong, im no bungie cord, there is a shet ton wrong with Destiny, bungie and activision but this is not one of them. Lets choose our battles more wisely mk?

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              • Man you guys probably screwed yourselves in sales for the dlc... if you gonna just drop things like this on us like you have contiuned to do... you should have at least waited until everyone already paid for the dlc

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              • I am not going to say that I agree completely with your assessment but this statement is an absolute must read for Bungie when they think about the next move to be made. "Worse still, they released an update that would cause players to dismantle extra exotics and spend glimmer and materials and time upgrading current weapons, knowing full well that they were about to release an update that would render all of that effort null and void." The rest of the Exotic exchange I am COMPLETELY fine with IF......Exotic drops and Exotics that are being sold in the future stay at the current version. Making every exotic upgrade and leveling decision fair for all.

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              • Bump

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              • Yup. Wasted an exotic shard to up my Vex. Shared my second Vex in order to do so.

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                • To my understanding. Destiny is technically an MMO by definition... mass multiplayer online game...but any game with MP is technically that (Such as Planetside 2). I read that this game is considered more of a co-op shooter/loot based game. Sort of a Diabloish FPS. Which makes sense to me, I do not compare it to MMO subscription RPG games. I compare it too more of Diablo type games.

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                • Edytowany przez użytkownika arichiso: 12/4/2014 5:40:35 PM
                  I loved the statement of how Destiny released an update making us waste exotic shards when they knew that you would have to waste 2 more and they didn't tell us. That is something I never thought about and realised how ridiculous that is. Bungie if you are reading this shame on you for not communicating with the community. Your failure on communication is not the communities fault for being upset with all the recent changed because YOU NEVER TELL US WHATS GOING TO HAPPEN NEXT. If we knew exotics were going to be upgradable to keep up with the light level 32 I wouldn't have wasted multiple shards maxing out my exotics. -_- So done. And please don't say "you don't have to upgrade it" no you kind of do if you want to do raids or anything in The Dark Below.

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                • agreed...having mixed emotions right now. Picked up the sticks for maybe 30 minutes last night and was just lost on what to do.... Not sure if I want to continue playing

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