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Edytowany przez użytkownika xVARYSx:
12/4/2014 1:09:52 PM
337
The gear treadmill and why "clearly you've never played an MMO" is a misguided response to those upset by recent news
So I've been trying to put my finger on exactly what is so irritating about this patch to me -- someone who played WoW for 8 years, quite actively (well over a year of /played time), someone who should have (ostensibly) been prepared for this kind of gear reset.
Here's the thing: Destiny isn't WoW. As much as I might wish it were a lot more like WoW, it's being managed by a company with no experience in MMOs (or MMO-lite games, which is more accurate for Destiny) or loot-based games, and it's showing. There are a billion things that have been learned over the course of 15ish years of MMOs and 10 years of WoW that have been utterly ignored by Bungie in their development of Destiny, like RNG mitigation, social tools, and encounter design, but those really aren't the issue here.
The issue is that Bungie has an absolute metric buttload to learn about communication.
People keep comparing Destiny to games like WoW, saying that anyone who is surprised or shocked or frustrated with the latest news of exotic resets has clearly never played another MMO. Otherwise, obviously that person would understand the nature of the gear treadmill and that this was bound to happen. And sure, maybe it was.
But the difference between WoW (or nearly any other well-managed MMO) and Destiny is quite simply that Blizzard wouldn't make a change like this without:
a) forewarning the community in ample enough time to get feedback before implementation was a week away
b) ensuring the community didn't throw away invested time in something that was only going to last a week, or
c) releasing the information from the horse's mouth before it got out through a third-party like Game Informer.
News like this is pretty massive. In a game like WoW, this type of change would be saved for a major expansion -- one that comes years after the release of the previous, not three months afterward. Beyond that, the nature of the exotic change is quite a bit different from the nature of a gear reset in a traditional MMO. A gear reset in WoW typically changes very little of the basic playstyle of your character. You might lose a set bonus that makes one of your spells work slightly differently, or you might end up short of a haste breakpoint that slightly alters your optimal spell rotation. But generally speaking, a resto druid is going to play like a resto druid, regardless of what gear you're wearing or what weapon you're wielding. But in Destiny, guns dictate your playstyle far more than your subclass, or even your main class. The way you play with Thorn, for example, is utterly different from the way you play with Invective. Exotics, in particular, typically alter your playstyle in pretty noticeable ways. So when Bungie says, "oh btdubs, if you still want to use those guns you're going to have to turn them in for New Gun+ and then level them again," you're not experiencing the same feeling as going from 85 to 90 when Mists of Pandaria comes out. Bungie has just limited the options you have for different playstyles in the future -- and that is only considering the having-to-choose-which-exotics-to-relevel bit. That's not including the swath of Vanguard and Crucible and raid legendaries that will be falling to the wayside, into obsolescence, once you're doing hard mode content or Iron Banner next time around.
Will there be another gun similar to Vision of Confluence? Sure, but it won't be the same gun. Is Crota's End going to drop a legendary that feels like my 3-tube, Flared Magwell, Clown Cartridge Admonisher III? Maybe so, but I doubt I'll be lucky enough to end up with those same perks (RNGesus plz). The point is, Bungie dropped the ball, not just with this change, but with making sure the community knew what was going on ahead of time. Worse still, they released an update that would cause players to dismantle extra exotics and spend glimmer and materials and time upgrading current weapons, knowing full well that they were about to release an update that would render all of that effort null and void.
Other threads have popped up offering perfectly good solutions to this feeling of being shafted - just adding more bubbles to previous exotics, or making sure that only players with fully-upgraded exotics could exchange them for the new tier version. But Bungie didn't do those things, and there's really not enough time for them to make changes like that in the week before The Dark Below releases. Will it get fixed post-release? Maybe, but the damage has already been done. People have already invested Exotic Shards into guns and will now have to invest two more Exotic Shards into the new versions, when they could have just waited a week and saved a shard, and time, and glimmer.
The lesson here is that we can't trust Bungie. It hurts me to say that, but as of right now, I feel like playing this game at all is gambling that Bungie doesn't have a plan to wipe away my time investment in a week. And that's not something that's going to change after the expansion is released -- it's something that's going to last as long as we play this game.
But that's just it, isn't it? As long as we play this game. I fear, for a lot of people, that time has just run out.
TLW: Bungie needs to learn to communicate and stop making bass-ackward design decisions without taking care to inform the community (or worse, deliberately not inform them) first.
(i read this post on reddit and give all credit to reddit user seraph 1337)
EDIT 1: Im glad this post is taking off like it is on reddit, if you want to read what destiny redditors have to say about this situation here's the link to the OP's reddit post. http://www.reddit.com/r/DestinyTheGame/comments/2o8bnf/the_gear_treadmill_and_why_clearly_youve_never/
English
#Destiny
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I can't bump this enough, Bungie is hands down the worst -blam!-en company when it comes to actually talking to its fanbase. NOBODY CARES WHAT GUARDIAN KILLED THE MOST CAPTAINS, STOP PUTTING USELESS GARBAGE IN THE WEEKLY UPDATES.
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Bump #DeeJfkedup
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My friend make YouTube videos about destiny
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6 OdpowiedziEdytowany przez użytkownika Caverject: 12/5/2014 1:48:49 AMThis is not WoW and WoW is not what it used to be, I watched it go to crap a long time ago...this is also a 60$ game with a choice for DLC for 35$, not paying 15$ a month (which I would pay if there was more content) Glad you mentioned Blizzard though because they did the same thing your blaming Bungie for in Diablo 3, and in that case they cost people 100's to 1000's of dollars. They released RoS beta, in the beta you could take legacy items to the mystic and enchant them to lvl 70 stats. They took that away in the beta, however they said it was a bug! So D3 gamers and a lot of them, raided the Auction house, spending a lot of money picking up items in preparation for RoS release. Blizzard made money off those people and then told everyone, oh by the way those items are now useless. So I don't understand why people are soooo upset over such a small thing, especially since Bungie has been improving the game and making it easier for people with every patch now. Lastly I have almost all exotic weapons, I have leveled them all..I use maybe 3 or 4 on a regular basis...the rest I don't really need, they just sit in my stash...so wow I have to level 3 weapons in the expansion, gives me an excuse to do the daily bounties for the first week!! And did they not say they would level faster as well?? Bunch of Sally's gamers are P.S. I'm gonna complain about a situation here, I need more stash space, I hoard materials, collect weapons etc...more space please
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Well said. Right now I have 5 Exotics I want to play with, but I have to wait to upgrade. Completely ridiculous. I may have also found a reason to quit Destiny until the system is changed to -blam!-ing favor the player.
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2 OdpowiedziYou're saying Destiny shouldn't be compared to WoW, yet you're comparing it with WoW? Also you're comparing the two games' weapon changes' effects on playstyle. Sure, i agree. WoW's weapon changes don't have much of an impact to playstyle, as it's heavily Talent/Ability focused, whereas imo, i see destiny's subclass system more inline as enhancement perks equal to WoW's glyphs. I've been playing WoW for 10 years and would have thought, with your 8-year experience you would be familiar with what impacts playstyle; Talent/Ability changes, not weapons...and in huge abundance, and to contrary, without warning, just hotfix after hotfix. Sure, you get blue posts on "we're going to make these changes", but this doesn't outweigh the "look what we did". If we want to compare the two, we should feel lucky that Destiny release the Raid day one on DLC launch, unlike WoW who hold off a month after expansions because there are so many bugs that come with new abilities and tweaks. Every WoW expac has given birth to a new way to either 1-shot bosses, invincibility, summon limitless pets or ways to crash the servers. As a former, highly competative Arena player, i had to check up on MMO-champion no less than once a week to see what subclass i switch to and what the new outrageously OP class was, good old 'flavour of the month', i didn't really complain, the balance issues and the constant change made the game feel dynamic. But if i went on holidays or took a break for a couple of months, there was a lot of catchup reading involved to get back to that competitive level. I could lie and agree with you and say that Blizzard's communications is much better than Bungie's, followed up with "But it has taken them 10 years of the game to get there". But the truth is, it's really not. The only reason the wow community seems more content over the years is due to the fact that long-term players have come to the realisation of this is how the game is and the established direction of it. Most of the WoW community have stopped trying to dramatically change the game and have accepted the devil you know. Plus, i feel Blizzard's attitude to community bug squishing is abhorent. WoW Players: "We found a way to easily defeat a raid boss through a faulty ability, item or environment mechanic." Blizzard: "Thanks for letting us know, we have perma-banned your raid group and 72-hour banned members of your guild who had nothing to do with it" or in my case, i found a way in Vanilla WoW, into Mount Hyjal (incase you though Destiny was the only game who had DLC content locked away on a first release disk). That equalled a perma-ban on my first toon. Blizzard didn't care how i got in, didn't care about fixing it, the same methods to get in existed for years, as a ban-trap for those who chose to explore over those mountain ridges. At least with Bungie, sure we can still cheese bosses and get into off-limit maps, but at least they treat their exploration community as QA testers, providing it's not heavily abused to gain advantage over other players. Can't trust Bungie? Not that i feel the same way as you, but it's taken you almost 3 months to come to that conclusion? I would have thought if this is all a huge deal for you, The REAL cockups on launch month would have forced you to quit 2 months ago.
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-blam!-ing Here HERE!!
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I agree 100%!!!!!!!
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Bump again, for good measure.
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This depicts the situation to the T.
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17 OdpowiedziEdytowany przez użytkownika ChaosMetalMarty: 12/5/2014 12:22:14 AMDESTINY IS NOT AN MMO DESTINY IS NOT AN MMO DESTINY IS NOT AN MMO DESTINY IS NOT AN MMO DESTINY IS NOT AN MMO DESTINY IS NOT AN MMO DESTINY IS NOT AN MMO DESTINY IS NOT AN MMO DESTINY IS NOT AN MMO DESTINY IS NOT AN MMO DESTINY IS NOT AN MMO DESTINY IS NOT AN MMO DESTINY IS NOT AN MMO DESTINY IS NOT AN MMO DESTINY IS NOT AN MMO DESTINY IS NOT AN MMO DESTINY IS NOT AN MMO DESTINY IS NOT AN MMO DESTINY IS NOT AN MMO DESTINY IS NOT AN MMO DESTINY IS NOT AN MMO DESTINY IS NOT AN MMO DESTINY IS NOT AN MMO DESTINY IS NOT AN MMO DESTINY IS NOT AN MMO DESTINY IS NOT AN MMO DESTINY IS NOT AN MMO DESTINY IS NOT AN MMO DESTINY IS NOT AN MMO DESTINY IS NOT AN MMO DESTINY IS NOT AN MMO DESTINY IS NOT AN MMO DESTINY IS NOT AN MMO DESTINY IS NOT AN MMO DESTINY IS NOT AN MMO DESTINY IS NOT AN MMO DESTINY IS NOT AN MMO DESTINY IS NOT AN MMO DESTINY IS NOT AN MMO DESTINY IS NOT AN MMO DESTINY IS NOT AN MMO DESTINY IS NOT AN 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BUMP! This is what I want to speak out loud!
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Hey deej, this is just a quick post, constructive opinion. I understand the new upgrade path for exotics, and while I'm not a huge fan I understand it's optional and will just require me to upgrade the ones I really want up again, and I'm fine with that, whatever. But can we please get an option to upgrade legendaries and raid legendaries. I got my Fatebringer and Timepiece last week, and I've been using the VoC for over a month and I love these weapons, more than I love any exotic I own. Is there any way Eris could offer an upgrade path in the future for us to upgrade our legendaries or raid legendaries? Maybe using ascendant energy and glimmer, or another type of item that could be introduced? I know this couldn't be implemented right away, but I'm hoping to hear that it is possible and may be included in a future patch before the hard mode raid is introduced. I'd really be disappointed if after grinding the hard raid for weeks these guns are now second tier, and basically useless for the new hard raid.
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1 OdpowiedźDestiny is not WoW. This post is deemed invalid. Thank you for stopping by! Destiny is a place full of wheelchairs and nurses.
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1 OdpowiedźEdytowany przez użytkownika a potato: 12/5/2014 2:13:16 AM[b]IT'S CHEAPER TO RE-BUY FROM XUR AND SHARD THE OLD EXOTIC THAN "UPGRADE" UNLESS ITS A PRIMARY[/b] Let's do the math: Exotic special upgrade: Your existing exotic special. (worth 7 strange coins sharded, 8 if you have it maxed and get a telemetry) An exotic shard to upgrade (another 7 strange coins) Another exotic shard to max (another 7 strange coins) Telemetries to level (another strange coin) Exotic special re-purchase: Exotic special: 17 strange coins. Exotic shard to max: FREE if you dismantle the weapon you're re-buying. Telemetries to upgrade: chance to get one FREE if you dismantle your weapon. The upgrade process is ALSO RNG BASED, so you're not paying for the convenience of bypassing RNGesus when you pay 22 strange coins for a 17 strange coin weapon. The math only gets to "break even" if you're replacing a primary.
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5 OdpowiedziEdytowany przez użytkownika Bluefoxx3: 12/5/2014 3:48:57 AMYa, I dismantled an extra Thunderlord and used the shard to max out Thorn they day the update went live, then the next day, they release info that you have to reset your exotics in order to make them stronger, as if it didn't take long enough already to max out Thorn in the first place, now I have to do this again for the exotics I need to bring for the raid and I have to level them up one by one instead of being able to equip 3 at once and level them faster.
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17 Odpowiedzilol just when I think bungie has learned their lesson, they go right back to doing something stupid as hell. I don't think bungie exists as a company in 5 years, I have never seen this much negativity toward a developer in such a short time. Way to go bungie, you earned the Worst decisions in an MMO game of the decade award.
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You make sense, my friend.
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11 OdpowiedziNews Flash, Destiny is a shared world shooter. Not MMORPG.
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1 OdpowiedźWoW - First and best training template for the spoiled, entitled, and lazy brat that engulf gaming culture today.
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Edytowany przez użytkownika Dolittle: 12/5/2014 4:21:29 AMBump. Edit: Forgot to add, that in my opinion, this is on point.
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I understand the frustration but some forget that, that one gun that your upset about upgrading, might not even be available for upgrade in the first place. Your guns will be relevant up until xur has upgrade, then you'll level those guns one by one. While I don't like the idea so much, in the bigger picture, it's reasonable and is something to strive for again. Chill out, it's gonna be fun.
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1 OdpowiedźYou are comparing to WoW NOW. It wasnt this way when WoW was out for 3 months. The game was a MESS! Signed, Shaman with Arcanite Reaper 3 months in, OP 4 lyfe.
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16 OdpowiedziIt is a shame that bungie will not read this thread as they clearly do not give a damn about our time. As some who has invested days into maxing out 10+ exotic gear I am infuriated.
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7 OdpowiedziI'm confused as to why everyone is feeling "cheated". The community asked if they would keep the exotics relevant in the new content, they said they would introduce a system that would allow that, and they did. Now, it may not be what people were hoping for, but let's look at it like this. Imagine getting the game and getting to start the game with gear that is already capable of being at the TOP possible stats. You didn't have to farm it, buy it, steal it, etc. You simply logged in and "poof", you have top level gear. That's what the exotic upgrade is, people with a vault full of gear with the potential for max level that requires zero RNG stress to get. Yes, there's work involved, but seriously, did everyone just think they were going to allow them to be lvl 32 ready 20 minutes after the expansion dropped? I think the system they're using is more than adequate, especially since they could have said "no, we're not going to let you lvl your current exotics, and if you want to stay up to par with the content, then you need to acquire the gear designed for the new content." I compare it to the fact that I played Borderlands 2 three times, playing the same story, collecting the same loot, just to stay up with the higher level content. 3 conference call shotguns at three different level tiers.
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You know how you fix this weeks problem. Give us an exotic shard whenever we trade our fully upgraded weapons for the new versions.
