totally agree they are designing for spreadsheet grinds and retention instead of whether the gamer devs actually have fun doing it

I have bad memories of Kings Fall.

ah the good old days of crota and vog. i miss them. large jack/coke and a fireteam of friends, now its a chore.

last wish was my first raid, so without knowing anything prior , I'd say it was a nice change of pace from mindless pew pew

Raids are for the "glitch " power level streamers now, I don't even look at the raid in Destiny 2, its bullshit, their love for streamers is concerning

I miss the days if VoG. All this new BS is just awful trash. I do the raids once or twice. Thats it. They are bad

Fun=KF wall of dicks, deaths zamboni, and Six-man Jack Sparrow run.

Bungie tries way too hard with the meachanics and acts like players have the same utility WoW players have. You literally only have 2 abilities and 3 guns in this game. That's why they add a jumping puzzle to almost every single major raid they have because that's the only other thing you can do in this game in terms of mobility lmao.

I think that they have to keep raising the stakes after each raid to make it new and challenging. If they make each raid the same, whats the point of playing them?

Hell yeah. I can easily do any roll in any raid but its way too much of a hassle to depend on teammates.

Leviathan was not too fun for me. It turned me off to raids. Especially because of the fact that the purple room (I forget what people call it) at Calus was SOOO annoying. I would be behind a barrier and the floor was SLIGHTLY up. So, eventually, I would just fly over it. It was annoying. And being in the throne room with two primaries sucked. If we had shotguns and snipers in the special slot, I probably would have loved the Calus encounter and the whole raid. But that wasn't the case. I looked at a guide to do the new raid and although it seems like it's short, the mechanics seem a bit much. But that's only in the last two encounters. It may be different when I actually DO IT. I like mechanics to an extent. But this raid has me going "isn't this a bit much". I understand that there's only so much they can do for a raid without making a raid with a mechanic identical to others. But raids almost not worth it to me anymore. Sure I like to experience them but after a few times, what's the point. The raid exotic sure. The loot other loot? Maybe. But the loot is also SPLIT UP from the Forge loot. At least the weapons. Did you know that? I think it's the shotgun, sniper, scout and ,something else, that is excluded from the forge loot pool. They out the rest of it in the raid. The raid doesn't even have it's own weapon loot pool. The key is to incentivize us, the player, to do activities in the game. For if we do something such as a raid, and we aren't doing it for the loot, then what's the point of doing it over and over again. It will eventually wear out. The fun that is. OR the fun was never there to begin with even if we gain a sense of what we're doing and master it. Either way the fun will eventually die UNLESS the raid is REALLY good. That was me with Wrath of the Machine. I loved it so much that I played it with randoms at least 2 times per week maybe even more. So if the loot isn't worth it, there's no incentive to play it unless it's good. The mechanics should be toned down a bit so we can enjoy the raids for what they are. Hell, people found a skip for the last encounter in Last Wish. And everyone uses it. Not because its hard, but because it's time consuming and tedious. Tldr; The new raid doesn't seem likes it's worth doing. The loot pool for weapons is split with the forge loot pool. I believe that the mechanics may be a bit much but it's still a cool concept. Incentive will die and will be replaced by fun. That fun factor will die without incentive unless the raid is good.

People will complain regardless of how easy/difficult it is, it’s just how it is.

I would like a kings fall here and there but WOTM is the ideal formula for a raid. New one is very very good.

Last wish is a cake walk, got it done in about an hour. Thats with messing up a couple of times.

No? The mechanics are extremely easy compared to King's Fall. The only issue is power level acquisition. In D1 there was an easy path to get raid ready and you could know you're at a decent level for the raid when it launches. Now there's not.

For me at this point it’s not even loot. I enjoy getting exotics and still get excited but the fantastic gameplay is why I still play destiny. The running/jumping/shooting combination keeps me playing. Not the complicated order or operations that make working calculus equations look easy. If you doubt it try explaining an encounter to someone. After 30 minutes you end up with “ let’s just try it and see how it goes “

Same man. I’m a plenty capable player, but getting a raid together is SUCH a task now. I get why they do it, but I’m just not a fan of the way it generally works. I went through and watched the guides for the Last Wish so I wouldn’t be a drag on a team...WOW, after a while I was just like, naaahhhh. Even if I could get them all down before jumping in, I would still slow down my team, which I’m not a fan of, especially since I can’t get five of my other friends to dedicate the time I’m willing to, so it would be with total strangers on the Internet...loads of fun there haha. Destiny has been my main hobby for three years and in all that time I’ve only raided four or five times? And the first run really isn’t all that fun cause you’re just trying to survive and not blow it for your team. Needs some tweaks IMO.

Leviathan is still a struggle for people Prestige is hard enough with no one around.

Almost biblical.