-groan- When people finally start point out the truth that these raids are actually brain dead easy and focused on the casual raiding experience rather than a long term raiding experience... all of a sudden the community screams "its too complicated????" -eye roll- Guys... I understand most people who complain about the raids have 0 experience with raiding outside of Destiny raiding but... you guys need a harsh reality lesson. Raids are supposed to be alot harder than what Destiny raids have been... even their prestige raiding counterparts. Sorry guys but... you need to go actually do some research before screaming for nerfs. The game is struggling in the raid department because... there is no loot in them worthwhile. All there is has been the new shotty and the exotics.

As someone who hates to LFG it’s a let down. I’m in a big clan and these old -blam!-ers just don’t wanna deal with Leviathan, spire and TLWish. I ran 60+ complete Kings fall raids and helped out in countless portions when people would get frustrated and quit. I loved running Wrath of the machine over and over also. EOW is a great fit for our group, but everyone is bored of it. Shattered throne is fun with 2 people but the space with the wizard and knights is too tight for three people to not trip over each other. I’m sure Bungie can look up many of my clan members(they won’t) and see that they won’t/haven’t bought this expansion pass thing. The reason, there isn’t anything for them. The Last Wish has a very poor player completion count. Why? My opinion is it’s not pizza and beer friendly. I don’t want to learn 62 mechanics and then have 5 other people fail on me and be stuck with no chance to proceed. It’s a defeating experience. Git gooder I get it. I’m competent and my clan mates are also. I don’t have 6 hours to get all the mechanics together with 5 people. LFG sucks. If I can’t do it with friends, I’m 100% not doing it with a squeaker.

I have 2000 hrs in D2, it's my hobby game. I have played with a lot of other players who also put a lot of hrs in and the most negative take away I hear is players disappointed that they cannot enjoy endgame raiding because lfg does not want anyone that does not already have raid clears. I learned the Leviathan by guided games for weeks till I got a couple of clears under my belt then essentially taught my most active clan members. I have 25+ friends on my friend list that play D2 and I still have trouble putting a raid team together. If we could introduce an easy mode say 6 weeks after the raid drops so as not to interfere with the essence of hardcore endgame. It would ultimately bring more players in/ keep players around this great game that sometimes gets a bad wrap.

Have to agree. You really can’t wonder why d1 one raids are considered better by most players. Those raids aloud you to take at least 1 novice players through them and not struggle bus the whole way through and still have fun. If you look at my d1 record I completed every raid on hard mode a lot simply because I liked teaching people how to do them and generally people were very thankful. Even if people were willing to teach me this newest raid ( which they aren’t ) I wouldn’t even care to keep raiding at all. Sorry to say but when you pay 60 for the game I think bungie should do more to guarantee more people can do raids. At least in my opinion.

If Raids are LESS Laborious, and task driven to extend the time it takes so that there is more content for Streamers, which markets the game for Bungie, and they make money in return off donations, views, etc depending on which platform it's on. Raids Encounters should play like a Nightfall, be enjoyable, where each encounter should have a buff, and debuff that can be activated during the encounter. this could have been an IDEAL PLAY for the infinite forest to be a thing, but no. I mean, my Fireteam Last week. we ran back to back Nightfalls we did all three. If you can have a Raid, where each Boss from the lair you just completed drops a component that is required to unlock the Final Encounter before the Master loot Chest, then that would be great? Mechanical components ads to the stress factor some people experience during a raid, which makes it unpleasant for them to complete. Or just give us back Prison of Elders. as an additional Vanguard Activity.

I haven’t raided since the end of crota. I really enjoyed them, but when your friends stop playing it becomes a terrible experience, mainly for the reasons you state. My own personal experience of lfg has not been a positive one so I just don’t bother, I like to think I will give it another go but I never do. I think an improvement would be to at least remove this ridiculous revive token thing which results in a complete wipe for the entire team. One of my best experiences in gaming was going in to a new raid totally blind and exploring, having a laugh, I feel you can no longer do that using lfg, as you said, “must have experience, know what to do, have a particular weapon, be at max light” blah blah blah. So much for fun.

My favorite Raid is Crota. Not too long...some virgin teenager can solo it in 1 second...I don't care. Me..very rare able to pass the lamp solo...LOL But It was fun to goofing around with online friends. AND...The WEAPONS were GOOD..!! During D1 did many Raid even all my 3 chars were done it at that week. Because I like to be in the team..Just to goofing around. Many occasion 5 of the players were done for the week.. we just companied 1 player that still need the Raid. I never done any D2 raid...because the weapons not too good...and too complicated not fun at all.

I liked all of the D1 raids. I have not done the Last Wish yet, Leviathan did not click with me. I did like Eater of Worlds though, it reminded me of Wrath, which may be my favorite.

The problem is not that these raids are overcomplicated... the problem is the gear is not worth it. For the love of god, I did vog like 20 times or more and i would do it 100 more times just so I would get The Fatebringer, VoC or Praedyths Revenge !!

Raids need to be the most challenging thing in the game. They need to be a thing that takes effort, organization, and teamwork to overcome, otherwise nobody will feel accomplished or special when they beat them. I see people saying that raids should be "a little harder than Nightfalls", but seriously? Nightfalls are a joke. I /routinely/ 2-man them with my buddy with absolutely no issue at all, even using challenge cards. When we were grinding for the Braytech Osprey, 2-manning, we were able to get our runs of Strange Terrain as the nightfall down to under 10 minutes. Raids should be /significantly/ more challenging than Nightfalls. I also think people exaggerate the complexity of the raid mechanics. Last Wish /looks/ intimidating, but once you do it a few times, it's not bad at all. Our raid crew took two weekends to beat it the first time (we can only run about 3-4 hours per weekend) but after that first clear, now we rampage through it without much trouble at all. The problem is more people being intimidated and afraid to take chances than it is the raids actually being that hard. One of my teammembers made the comment "Wow, that was a lot easier than I thought it was going to be" after our first clear of LW. I think that's a pretty common sentiment. I also don't think the raids have gotten much /more/ complicated. King's Fall, the first raid I ever did, was very complicated. A lot of people speak fondly about VoG, but we went back and ran it a bunch of times during Age of Triumph and frankly I found it to be short and boring. Scourge of the Past is also much easier/shorter than Last Wish. This is fine- I have no problem at all with there being a variety of raid types- some more mechanically intense and challenging, some more fun and chaotic. But I think Scourge of the Past kind of undermines the point of this thread, since it's way less complicated than Last Wish. We are far from top-tier players. We usually take multiple sessions to clear a raid the first time, and usually don't even attempt to do so until a month or more after the raid first launches. But we have cleared all the raids so far, and have had fun doing every one of them. I think the raids are fine the way they are, and people just need to be willing to take chances, put in work, and not be obsessed with instant/easy gratification. There needs to be some activity at the top of the pyramid to make people really feel accomplished and good at the game when they overcome. If they maid raids easier, it'd have to be something else, and then people would complain about /those/ being too hard. Raids serve a purpose, and that purpose is to give players who want a real challenge something to aspire to overcome.

Last wish is the only raid that currently frightens me away from attempting. I just can't force myself to remember a name for every single symbol, I don't have the brain power for that The new raid looks super fun though