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Edytowany przez użytkownika sixcrowsilver: 8/14/2017 3:40:53 PM
26

Some (hopefully) constructive thoughts on SBMM

Overall, I’m not a big fan of SBMM… at least not the way it’s been implemented in Destiny and other games recently. I get the concept in theory. Different players have different skill level. As a game developer and business, you want to attract and keep the largest audience possible. However, new players, lesser-skilled players, and casual players are vulnerable to negative experiences at the hands of more experienced, skilled, hardcore players. Players who have overwhelmingly negative experiences with a game, or an aspect of a game, are unlikely to continue playing. Players leaving for any reason is not good for the game, or the business, and I wholeheartedly agree that resolutions should be considered. Skill based matchmaking, in theory I imagine, is intended to allow all players to compete against folks relatively close to their skill range. New/casual/less-skilled players get to avoid mlg pros with more consistency, and higher-skilled players get to experience more challenging competition. Great, everyone’s happy. Except it’s not that simple. A number of folks who oppose SBMM primarily express it with “I’m tired of all my games being sweaty!”. I believe the point they’re trying to make is valid, but presenting it that way just comes off really bad, and it often results in an equally flawed response - “Oh so you’re only happy stomping noobs!”. I don’t think that view is accurate of many folks who dislike SBMM, but when it’s communicated a certain way, the message gets distorted and we are a society that tends to assume the worst of people on the internet. I have 3 criticisms of SBMM, which I think are reasonable and constructive. I hope it comes off that way. Also, please understand these are the experiences of myself and my friends. I’m not trying to speak for everyone, but I do know a lot of players feel the same way. [b]1) Playing with friends of different skill levels is a problem[/b] — I play in a group of 5. Well I did. We’re all different skill levels. Due to SBMM, we barely play together. A couple of the guys in our group are a lower skill level. So, when they play by themselves, they do well, they experience less lag, and they have fun. If we play together, they more often than not don’t do well, they experience more lag, they don’t have fun and they inevitably stop playing. Back when it was CBMM in yr1, this didn’t happen. Yes, a couple guys in the group would have good games more consistently, but everyone would do well from time to time, and everyone had fun - regardless of skill level, regardless of who played together, and regardless of how many of us played together in a session (from solo up to a full fireteam). This is promoted as a social game. Players tout it as a social game. But SBMM in multiplayer, at least how it’s been implemented thus far, fosters a divide. Now you have friends who don’t have fun, specifically, when playing together. The alternative is to either play separately (which shouldn’t be an acceptable solution for a “social” game), or go find/play a different game together (which shouldn’t be an acceptable solution for any developer). I personally believe any system that actively makes it more difficult to enjoy a game when playing together with friends, due to them being different skill levels, is significantly flawed. [b]2) Increased lag[/b] — Destiny always seemed to have, for me and many others, a fair amount of lag. But, aside from some bad jumps during Iron Banner, it was mostly bearable. Once SBMM became more of a priority, it quickly and easily became the laggiest multiplayer I’ve ever personally experienced. A lot of folks haven’t dealt with this, which is great and I’m envious. But from what I’ve seen, SBMM significantly increased lag for a large amount of the player base. Taking focus away from CBMM will inherently result in worse connection/lag. Plus, the higher your skill bracket is, the more lag you’re likely to experience on a consistent basis - this has been well documented. Not to mention, I’d personally rather be confident that whatever happened in a match, win or lose, is mostly legit. [b]3) I prefer a varied gaming experience, and also the ability to choose how I want to play[/b] — Sometimes I’m in the mood for something that’s intense and highly competitive. Other times I’m in the mood for something that’s more relaxed, and maybe allows me to have fun messing around with different (non-meta) guns or do bounties. When PVP for Destiny and other games were based on CBMM, in my experience, sometimes you’d destroy people; sometimes you’d have close, “sweaty” matches; and sometimes you’d get destroyed. I don’t know if I’m alone here but that worked for me, and it was enjoyable. It gave me varying experiences with different types of players doing different things, and different matches having different, legitimate results. Granted, the better you are, the less likely you’ll play folks better than you. The worse you are, the less likely you’ll play folks worse than you. However, let me throw out a few numbers (from DestinyTracker): Percentage of Destiny players with an overall k/d of 1.35 or lower = 91% Percentage of Destiny players with an overall k/d of 1.25 or lower = 87% Percentage of Destiny players with an overall k/d of 1.15 or lower = 78% Percentage of Destiny players with an overall k/d of .99 or lower = 56% Percentage of Destiny players with an overall k/d of .85 or lower = 30% Percentage of Destiny players with an overall k/d of .75 or lower = 16% Percentage of Destiny players with an overall k/d of .61 or lower = 5% Percentage of Destiny players with an overall k/d of 1.47 or higher = 5% Five percent at 1.47 or higher. Five percent… I mean, the overwhelming percentage of folks that fall near a 1.0 is insane. Statistically speaking, with CBMM, the vast majority of players [i]should[/i] rarely face a team full of players significantly better than them. Of course there are outliers (Destiny RNG!), but it [i]should[/i] be relatively uncommon. None of these things are to say that I believe my position on SBMM is better or more important than those who disagree. However, bringing back what I said earlier, players leaving for any reason is not good for the game. Forcing higher skilled players into matchmaking that sours the game for them is no better a strategy than conversely allowing lesser skilled players to suffer in matchmaking that sours the game for them. TL;DR — I don’t believe that many games have handled matchmaking properly the last couple years. And, honestly, I don’t know the best solution, but I just don’t feel that the current landscape of SBMM is it. I watched a youtuber yesterday talking about Halo Reach when Bungie actually allowed players to choose their matchmaking priority, either connection or skill. That might be ideal. I don’t know. [b]Maybe the changes Bungie mentioned in their last update will resolve everything - with the 2 different matchmaking setups for quickplay and competitive[/b]. Here’s hoping, but I’ll probably be using a “believe it when I see it” approach. Edit: In case I didn't communicate this clearly - I'm not opposed to the goal of SBMM, I just think it should be implemented differently than it was in D1. And I'm aware that Bungie is separating the matchmaking for quickplay and competitive in D2, which sounds promising. If it's done well and makes this a moot point, great.

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  • Edytowany przez użytkownika ol azo: 8/13/2017 8:05:01 PM
    I wanna add that sbmm also has an impact on gameplay as well, not just by lag or playing with friends either. Back in year 1 with cbmm I could actually see some variation in weapon choice. I would see stuff nobody would use now because they would otherwise get destroyed using. Like Hardlight and 4th Horseman. Meta wasn't such an issue. People weren't so horribly afraid of dying, and there was a lot more movement and aggressive play. You know, fun gameplay instead of cowering behind corners, throwing grenades and wishing to the stars it would help you in your next "gun fight". There's nothing wrong with using grenades like that, but my point is that that's an example of how excessively passive the game has become. Stickies have never been such a problem. And no that does not mean nerf stickies. This isn't as important but I feel it attracts what some people call stat whores. I see so many people with negative kds that try to act so good. Like just sit back and have fun for once. Unless it's your source of income, games are for recreational purposes. No need for "OHHH I OUTPLAYED THE SHIT OUT OF YOU LMAO" and no need to have panic attacks over your precious little kd dropping after 1 match. Not as important but it really annoys me.

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  • Edytowany przez użytkownika Orbital Drop Shock Trooper: 8/17/2017 4:38:30 PM
    Bungie should just try to avoid 'fixing' matchmaking games and 'tailoring meta fits'. Let a meta happen naturally and if it's good, build on it. Don't just blanket nerf things in an attempt to make other things more popular as encouragement to change playstyle. You can judge if a meta is good by active player base, if people are playing PvP like everyday, it's good. Complaints on forum will also happen, I'm not saying don't listen to it but be aware that a good thing is still going on. When the player base drops and the complaints rises, that when correlation should hit you the most and it should be a sign that you -blam!-ed up. Not acknowledging the -blam!- up and continuing to go down the -blam!-ed up path is just signs of being out of touch. However fixing everyday games to a point where they design the outcome chances for auto-win / auto-lose,is just not acceptable in anyway. Its disrespectful to the players who invest their free time to enjoy something. To be treated like lab rats is not something people pay to play a game for.

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  • I think you failed to mention an aspect of the matches that is greatly affected by matchmaking. The overall quality of the matches. I would be interested in other peoples opinions on this matter, but here is what I have noticed. There have always been blowouts and there will always be blowouts, but before the last changes they were less frequent. With the current matchmaking settings at least every other match is a blowout, so if more sbmm means better quality matches then I'm all for it.

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    1 Odpowiedź
    • SBMM seems like a pendulum, I get a 3.8 one game and a .60 the next. Every once and awhile it hits that middle point. I would rather have an attempt at an even match than the above.

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    • SBMM needs to be way stricter and so does the CBMM. Both need to be there but they need to be wayyyyyy stricter.

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    • Destiny PvP: if you're a bad player, you do well. If you're a good player, here's a full team of 6 steamers to play against and have some .5s as your teammates.

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    • Very well said. It's very strange that were even having to discuss this. Halo 3, in my eyes already perfected MM. Well, outside of one ranking exploit that could have easily been fixed. Ranked and social split. Tight sbmm and party size MM in ranked. Looser restrictions in social that emphasised fast search times.

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      8 Odpowiedzi
      • SBMM is Laggy AIDS

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        • We need it. If somebody can't kill me how is that fair lol. Or if I was unable to kill someone else even. I get quickplay and ranked play but there has to be some separation. In quickplay it should separate negative and positive KD at least, it's fun pub stomping for a while but in the end it's not fair.

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        • You are all bad friends for not making the poo player fire team leader!! Jokes aside sbmm is weird. The majority of my games there's me over positive and the other 5 well below 1kd While the other team, also blue berries, will have 5 well over positive kd and one hovering. Then once in a while I'll get stomped on and ill be 1 of the 5 negs on our team and I wonder to myself is this the norm for the guy who did go positive on our team? None of it makes sense. I'll typically match against peers but rarely get paired with them But heavy cbmm also wouldn't be fair to select pockets of people either so I get why they won't do that.

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        • A) Most of this post is irrelevant since D2 has 2 different matchmaking options. B) Year 1 was never CBMM. That's a common misconception. While I understand your point (Y1 feeling less sweaty), it is not because Y1 Crucible was CBMM, because that simply is not true.

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          2 Odpowiedzi
          • Didn't Bungie state that quickplay will have minimal SBMM and competitive will have full on SBMM? That's how it should be. Pure CBMM is not really fun because if I'm going against someone with a .5 KD I would feel no satisfaction killing that person and that person would just be miserable the whole game. Pure SBMM is the worst though, so much lag.

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            1 Odpowiedź
            • I believe that there is a time and place for SBMM, and CBMM. SBMM should be for when players want opponents close to their skill level. With SBMM, you have the best chance of ensuring that you will always have a worthy opponent. You shouldn't expect winning to be easy, because your opponents won't expect you to just lay down and die for them. CBMM should be for players who want to test themselves against all levels of skill. This let's you see for yourself how good you really are, it let's you see what other players in other skill groups are doing, both better and worse than you. You can test strategies on various players, find out what does and doesn't work. Which leads to the conclusion of what both modes should be for. CBMM for learning, and SBMM for practicing.

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              • SBMM is awful in any game without a ranked playlist for it. You can't both not show how good you are in game to boast about it yet have SBMM in the game. I know several people who got on alts in D1 and purposely played bad then got into bottom ranked lobbies for montages. That's why I always laugh when I see "SBMM in trials" threads, account recovs would love it. A game with no ranking system should be PURE CBMM. Yes once every 30 games you get stomped, and so what, you have one bad game then back to normal? Please.

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              • 1.0 k/d sounds about right for people not concerned with stats that just want to have fun. I didn't really have an issue with sbmm. I just think you still need an element of cbmm in play. Don't match me with sbmm against people on the other side of the planet. I'd be fine with it then. The skill might be right, but the connection is suffering.

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              • Edytowany przez użytkownika Patient3591: 8/13/2017 2:03:46 PM
                Good news, my dude! They're going to be using different matchmaking algorithms for the Quickplay playlist and the Competitive playlist in D2. Quickplay matchmaking will still take skill into account, but it will make connection a higher prioritiy, and allows for a wider skill gap between teams to allow for faster matchmaking. Competitive will take both connection and skill into account, and will take longer to find a better match. Also, in both cases, the matchmaking will account for the average skill of the whole team.

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                4 Odpowiedzi
                • Have always preferred SBMM over anything else (in any game). I will take 10 straight sweaty games over getting destroyed once in 10. Although you make some good points - I definitely discount #1 on your list. That can definitely be an issue if you're trying to get friends into the game for the first time. Vehemently disagree with #3 and lag will always be an issue to some extent.

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                  3 Odpowiedzi
                  • Here's one...stop placing solo players against full groups

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                    2 Odpowiedzi
                    • SBMM + p2p = horrible player experience

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                    • [quote]I mean, the overwhelming percentage of folks that fall near a 1.0 is insane. Statistically speaking, with CBMM, the vast majority of players should rarely face a team full of players significantly better than them. Of course there are outliers (Destiny RNG!), but it should be relatively uncommon. [/quote] Your numbers don't accurately represent the current playerbase. The top 20% likely make up 80% of the traffic, it makes sense that better players are playing more often, so saying that it's unlikely you'd play someone better than you isn't exactly true, it's incredibly likely.

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                      • Edytowany przez użytkownika makki26: 8/13/2017 8:44:30 PM
                        Imo I feel every player should have the best possible connection even if you're matched with ridiculously good players. You'll then learn how they play and acclimate to that level of play and in return become better yourself. I'd rather play the same no life crucible player that's extremely good then deal with an overall lagtastic mess. I've found regardless of the type of matchmaking your connection is all that matters so it should be critical that all players-even if you're playing the same players repeatedly-should have the best connection experience when they join up. I also feel people that display horrible connection on their end should be immediately kicked and those connection issues should be more stern.

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                      • TL;DR

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                        2 Odpowiedzi
                        • This is why a ranked competitive PVP mode would work so well in Destiny (if they ever fixed all of the major network issues commonly referred to as "netcode"). You have the ultimate tryhard mode for the MLG pros that want to prove that they're the best, and then you have the causal primarily CBMM mode for when groups of friends want to go and goof off. With the ranked mode it should take the highest person's skill rating and balance the match accordingly. The game is supposed to be competitive in that mode, but in other modes it would purely be based on connection. This solution doesn't even really hurt trials all that much, and would make a similar type gamemode more enjoyable because more people could actually compete. Bungie's refusal of putting a meaningful ranked mode in the game completely contradicts the competitive direction they've tried to push the game's PVP in.

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                          2 Odpowiedzi
                          • So what your saying is bungie should cater to the 5%?

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                            4 Odpowiedzi
                            • Solo queue and team queue (with option to be mixed to decrease join times) - with equal distribution of kds for solos and kd averages for teams) - problem solved - you're welcome Bungie.

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                              1 Odpowiedź
                              • Edytowany przez użytkownika aboniks: 8/13/2017 2:45:59 AM
                                IMO, the ideal solution is for players to take control of CBMM if that's what they actually want. CBMM is something players of p2p networked games can enforce on their own regardless of developers business needs, or developers design preferences, by using routers with geoblocking lists. ([url=https://netduma.com/features/geo-filter/]1[/url]), or ([url=https://smile.amazon.com/dp/B00EQWUZM6/_encoding=UTF8?coliid=I145A93H9UENG5&colid=YSL34DBLEQVY]2[/url]) + ([url=http://www.mikrotikconfig.com/firewall/]3[/url]). Destiny is an ideal opportunity to take responsibility for our own experience. The inevitable objection is, of course: [i]"I shouldn't have to take responsibility for this." [/i] People want the qualitatively enhanced experience of CBMM but don't want to invest in the equipment that would provide it. They demand that instead, developers should individually shoulder the costs of catering to their preferences. And there it sits. Bungie has made their position clear ([url=https://www.bungie.net/en/News/Article/45919]3[/url]), ([url=http://www.gdcvault.com/play/1022247/Shared-World-Shooter-Destiny-s]4[/url]). Players will have to decide whether or not they care enough about CBMM to learn how to provide it for themselves. The tools are just waiting for people to pick them up.

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                                5 Odpowiedzi
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