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Edytowany przez użytkownika dragonhunter3294:
5/10/2015 5:44:11 PM
39
Legitimate proof that primaries need rebalancing
After compiling data from a PvP TTK spreadsheet here is the average time to kill per gun with all precision shots type excluding TTK + X Perk.('Thorn', 'Reactive Reload', 'Final Round', 'X Ballistics) So, basically based off of all archetypes of a primary weapon type.
Examples of 'Archetypes' of Primaries:
[spoiler]Auto Rifles:
Cydonia/Vanquisher - Low RoF High Impact
Hardlight/ForThePeople - Medium RoF Medium Impact
Atheon's Epilogue/Payback SOS - High RoF Low Impact
Scout Rifles:
Badger CCL/Gheleon'sDemise - Low RoF High Impact
FangOfIrYut/AnotherNiTC - Medium RoF Medium Impact
B-LineTrauma/GallowsCure - High RoF Low Impact
Hand Cannons:
Timur'sLash/ALittleVoice - Low RoF High Impact
RedHandIX/Fatebringer - Medium RoF Medium Impact
TDYD/WordOfCrota - High RoF - Low Impact
Pulse Rifles
FairAndSquare/3LW - Low RoF High Impact
BadSeedDown/Stranger's Rifle - Medium RoF Medium Impact
TimeOnTarget/BadJuju - High RoF Low Impact
CoiledHiss/OversoulEdict- Very High RoF Very Low Impact[/spoiler]
[u]Avg Scout Rifle TTK:[/u] .9075
[u]Avg Hand Cannon TTK:[/u] .7725
[u]Avg Pulse Rifle TTK:[/u] .826
[u]Avg Auto Rifle TTK:[/u] 1.018
So in short, based off of the base stats of the weapon archetypes, the TTK goes from least to greatest as: Hand Cannons, Pulse Rifles, Scout Rifles and then Auto Rifles.
Different Suggestion: Possibly the way to balance them would be to lower base damage on auto rifles, [b]but[/b] increase the headahot multiplier from 1.25 to 1.4 as the auto rifles are very forgiving for inaccuracy, but dont reward precision hits very much.(though they arent ment to be precision weapons as much as the others so they'd have a lower multiplier)
Notes:
-Based off of precision TTK
-Exotic Ballistic Types not included
-Perks not included(TLW, MotD, ReactiveReload)
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Good info but you need to take into account range. Scout rifles have almost no place in crucible due to the small amount of range fighting. Pistols have a lower TTK than pulse rifles, but only at specific ranges. [u]The Most Needed Fix for Balance[/u] Forgetting about AR's for a moment (they do need reworking), the thing about crucible is that almost all maps dictate close to mid range fighting. So instead of fixing TTK on HC's and Pulse Rifles, the dominant range of each need to be fixed. HC's should dominate in close-mid range battles, while Pulse rifles should dominate mid range battles, and scouts should dominate mid-far range battles. HC's have too much range. Pulse rifles need a lower TTK at medium range Scout rifles need bigger maps in rotation.
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I gotta be honest, I have been playing crucible a lot lately because I am grinding hard to get all my weapons maxed out before House of Wolves, I have been using the Vanquisher VIII, my favorite auto rifle, I am basically out playing most people. I am not the best crucible player but, I can say I am above average. I can recall several times where I was beating people who were using Vex and even Thorn, those weapons are wrecking right now in Crucible as is Red Death. Did I just list off three different weapons types that are all balanced? Sorry 4, forgot about the Vanquisher. My guess here is that you were an Auto Rifle wielder in the times when ARs and HCs dominated crucible and Pulse Rifles and Scout Rifles sat in the vaults of other players and now you are starting to lose those battles because the numbers are in your head. I will admit, at first I was a little overwhelmed by the change in PRs vs ARs but, I didn't think anything of it and my focus now is to kill that opponent even if we trade. My other suggestion would be is to try the PRs and SRs as well, it may teach you how to better yourself with an AR, knowing what battles to pick and choose from and when to not take on 3 different opponents by yourself.
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Everything up there looks fine to me. Auto Rifles, pulse rifles, and scout rifles are built to kill more than one person at a time so they have a higher TTK. Hand cannons are built so that you get one kill and then get traded so they have a lower TTK.
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Scout Rifles are fine in the spot they are. Their time to kill is pretty balanced, and it's much easier to land all shots on the head with an SR than it is with a PR or AR. Hand Cannons, right now, are where the problem lies. Thorn, TLW & Hawkmoon are the biggest perpetrators at the moment, but overall Hand Cannons should be significantly harder to land all headshots with, and they shouldn't be effective at the range they are.
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1 OdpowiedźEdytowany przez użytkownika Artesians: 5/10/2015 5:37:29 PMHow about, case by case evaluation of archetypes and their respective archetypes to ensure they are working as [i]intended[/i]. The numbers don't reflect anything, body shots, headshots, and missing bullets don't count. The game is quite balanced as of now, but many exaggerate Thorn's and TLW's effectiveness and mistake gun power with skill and map design that cater to specific niches in gun types.
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2 OdpowiedziEdytowany przez użytkownika Ice Lantern: 5/10/2015 6:53:09 PMWhile I completely agree that they need balancing, using just TTK is a horrible way of showing it. I think the following should be taken into account: 1) Ease of Use - I think that the easier a weapon is to use, the less it's damage output should be. - This is why AR's were used to frequently, not because they were OP but because they were easy to use. - I am also curious what the averages are for Aim Assist. 2) Risk - AR's are riskier than hand cannons in that for you to do as much damage with an AR as with a HC (even assuming equal TTK) you have to be exposed for a longer period of time, - This is the same for heavy machine guns vs rocket launchers. 3) Frequency of usefulness - This is what makes scout rifles so much better in PvE than in PvP. - The PvP maps in the main game modes are so small that it makes scout rifles less desirable. - The higher TTK would be fine if other weapons actually suffered from inaccuracy and damage drop-off more frequently due to being out of range but that simply isn't the case in PvP.
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Buff autorifles back to how they originally were for both PvP and PvE except for maybe suros; give it only half a buff (if that makes sense.) Have the DoT from Thorn stop if you get a kill period and/or reduce the mag size back to 6. Make the TLW accurately represent its range stat and/or reduce the mag size to 6. Make all scouts a 3 shot headshot kill except for ones with the high rate of fire like the B line trauma and MIDA. I think that should balance everything out nicely. I can't speak on the hawkmoon since i'm on xbox one.
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I'd like to see how these numbers change across different distances. That might give us a better picture on performance.
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i just think auto rifles need to be re-balanced, and im sure a lot of people agree.. i wouldn't mind seeing Thorn nerfed, nothing annoys me more than killing a thorn user only to watch my health dwindle away, but whatever, I can deal with those scrubs :P
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lower the base damage of autos even more? you kidding me? they have shit damage allready and you wana nerf them into the ground even more?
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5 OdpowiedziThese numbers seem pretty balanced to me personally. The reason auto rifles are lower than the rest is because they are a more forgiving weapon type to use. For example, missing a shot with a hand cannon would increase your time to kill by about 1/3 of the time to kill. However, missing a bullet with an auto rifle would at most decrease it by maybe 10%. Based on this, if a hand cannon user misses one shot, then the auto rifle TTK is almost the same as the auto rifle TTK, even if the auto rifle misses a bullet because it has much less of an affect on TTK. So I feel that the way the guns are balanced now seem about right. The less forgiving a gun is, the faster its TTK, which is how I think it should be
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1 OdpowiedźB-LineTrauma/GallowsCure - Low RoF Medium Impact Yea B-Line Trauma has a low RoF. Ok
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Data comprised of incomplete information is not proof. Destiny has plenty of data collection, I am sure it will be reviewed.
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13 OdpowiedziProblem with handcannons is that they have the same range as scout rifles...
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You know what lets just ask for all the weapons in Destiny to be removed all together that way no more nerfs
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Bring back auto rifles, that is all
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I think Auto rifles should get the headshot multiplier up to 1.5x again and the '2.5%%' nerf should actually be 2.5%, not insane like 14% Suros got rap3d with.
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Link to the spreadsheet: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1L7FV9l4hXo2tHD3XlFUp854XvJIwTKFIPvASLduPPS4/edit#gid=0
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1 OdpowiedźTime to kill is not the only factor for weapon balancing. You have: Ease of use Range Effect on Target Auto rifles overlap with Hand cannons in terms of their intended range. Hand cannons are harder to use- in my opinion, not hard enough.
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Nope. They're fine.
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15 OdpowiedziEdytowany przez użytkownika TeddyBundy: 5/10/2015 8:08:09 AMI think every TTK under 1,5 is broken. Nerf all primary weapons to the point where they kill in maybe 1,5-2 seconds minimum. Then gunfights would be really thrilling and not over before you've even turned around to aim at your enemy.
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I agree autos need a damage buff. Not sure about scouts tho
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Edytowany przez użytkownika Gideon VI: 5/10/2015 4:14:40 PM"pls buff auto rifles again bungie i want my favorite toys back" How about this: bump Auto Rifles back to original damage, lower the damage drop-off to 25% damage rather than 50%. Now you can play with your short-range chainsaws as they were meant to be.
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Looking at the legendaries only this game isn't all that unballanced. Maybe the auto rifles should get a critical hit boost from x1.25 to x1.5 but other than that I don't see major differences in your spreadsheet. You can only get the fast TTK with hand cannons if you get all headshots, if you miss one of those the TTK is increased drastically. Auto Rifles are much more forgiving in that way, but still precision shots should be promoted. Pulse and Scout rifles are more long ranged and can of course can fire earlier because of that. If you want to go close combat don't get one of those because they are at a disadvantage.
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2 OdpowiedziThink the hand cannon time to kill is a little short but thats fine due to how difficult they are to use. Pulse rifles should take the same amount of time as auto rifles(they basically operate in the same ranges) its really depressing that auto's take so long to kill as the whole goal of using an auto rifle is to have a weapon that works well in all circumstances(though it doesn't have to be great in any of them.) As it is now they are the weakest weapons and you basically have to get the first 3-10 rounds into a guy before he notices you in order to have a shot at winning a gun fight(the only exception is with perks but even then most of the time your at a disadvantage.) putting the damage back up to the old levels while leaving the range would likely give them the buff they need.
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Ahhh, good ol' TTK threads.
