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10/18/2022 5:43:27 PM
12
That’s how balancing works.
Bakris has the same penalty that icefall has.
Most of what you mentioned isn’t even a penalty.
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Editado por Einward Spiegel: 10/19/2022 12:36:59 PMOk, ill acknowledge that Bakris has more cost than i was aware of. But its still not the same thing. The pause on dodge cool down is half as long as the pause on barricade cool down for Icefall if the overshield doesnt get broken. And while Hunter looses other dodge benefits as well, which ill also acknowledge, (1/2 penalties for a trade off of a superior movement that comes with 2 other benefits), Icefall gives up sprinting, sliding, and lifting as well as the barricade cool down. Thats 4 negatives and a trade for 1 benefit (2 if you count the slow effect. Butndoes anyone really use it for that reason?); since we are itemizing. So poor Bakris Hunter has to reload by hand like everyone else, and actually think before throwing shurikens everywhere . Whoopity doo. Icefall Titan, on the other hand, has twice the cool down pause as bakris, has no option for accelerated reloads from Rally (arguably a 5th penalty), and gives up most of its ability to move around, save for walking and normal single jumps, just to get a more convenient overshield, and a localized slow effect. So yes. Hunters have ONE exotic that carries a small but not insignificant built in penalty that you pay for 3 powerful benefits. If you want to count St0mp-EE5 aerial penalty...fine, i guess. But that such a minor "drawback" since Hunters arent built to fly to begin with, yet are nimble even in the air anyway. Honestly if youre playstyle is shooting while in the air -- theres Dawnblade for ya. St0mp-EE5 also grant 3 boons for the cost anyway. The burden is not the same.
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Editado por Bore: 10/19/2022 1:29:23 PM[quote]Ok, ill acknowledge that Bakris has more cost than i was aware of. But its still not the same thing. The pause on dodge cool down is half as long as the pause on barricade cool down for Icefall if the overshield doesnt get broken. And while Hunter looses other dodge benefits as well, which ill also acknowledge, (1/2 penalties for a trade off of a superior movement that comes with 2 other benefits), Icefall gives up sprinting, sliding, and lifting as well as the barricade cool down. Thats 4 negatives and a trade for 1 benefit (2 if you count the slow effect. Butndoes anyone really use it for that reason?); since we are itemizing. So poor Bakris Hunter has to reload by hand like everyone else, and actually think before throwing shurikens everywhere . Whoopity doo. Icefall Titan, on the other hand, has twice the cool down pause as bakris, has no option for accelerated reloads from Rally (arguably a 5th penalty), and gives up most of its ability to move around, save for walking and normal single jumps, just to get a more convenient overshield, and a localized slow effect. So yes. Hunters have ONE exotic that carries a small but not insignificant built in penalty that you pay for 3 powerful benefits. If you want to count St0mp-EE5 aerial penalty...fine, i guess. But that such a minor "drawback" since Hunters arent built to fly to begin with, yet are nimble even in the air anyway. Honestly if youre playstyle is shooting while in the air -- theres Dawnblade for ya. St0mp-EE5 also grant 3 boons for the cost anyway. The burden is not the same.[/quote] Also incorrect. The hunter dodge timer is set at 10 seconds, no longer, no shorter. The titan timer is just while you have the sheild up, which can be for as long as you are taking damage or much shorter. The shield can be shot away or canceled by you for a shorter time. Additionally the 100 health oversheild shield grants high amounts of damage resistance against combatants while the shield is up. That resistance stacks with the resilience change. This makes the shield much stronger. A 50% health increase on top of stackable damage resistance is quite strong.
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Ok fair enough. But its still just 100 health. Fallout Plays tested this with a Shatterdive hunter doing 50 and 50 damage to cleanly 2 shot the overshield. The video proving it is still up on YT. And its still no recharge while its up, even if its full duration. And it still comes with no sprinting, no sliding, no lifting, and arguably needs more building into in mobility investment to use most effectively; because Titans otherwise have no built in incentive to invest into that stat as Hunters do. Bakris grants 2 kinds of damage buffs and helps you move better than other dodges with what is very similar to a blink that doesnt take away your jump to use. The fact that the overshield provided by Icefall Mantle has use is beside my point. I never said it wasnt useful. My point was that its a simple benefit that comes with numerous drawbacks and penalties. Backris has 1 (and a trade off) and grants 3 benefits; while things like Star-eaters and Gyrfalcon grant several strong benefits for no penalty, in a way that Titan exotics dont. Not that Titan exotics arent useful; just that they dont grant these numerous benefits -- like 3 or 4 powerful effects at a time -- with little to no cost. If Bakris adds a 10 second stall to Marksman's Dodge's cool down at tier 10, which is about 14 seconds, thats 24 seconds. You can still shift up to twice a minute and reap the benefits. I fail to see how this is so terrible. A longer, faster, safer dodge that gives you 2 kinds of damage bonuses, and the only penalty is frequency of use. I dont feel bad for Hunters here.
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[quote]Ok fair enough. But its still just 100 health. Fallout Plays tested this with a Shatterdive hunter doing 50 and 50 damage to cleanly 2 shot the overshield. The video proving it is still up on YT. And its still no recharge while its up, even if its full duration. And it still comes with no sprinting, no sliding, no lifting, and arguably needs more building into in mobility investment to use most effectively; because Titans otherwise have no built in incentive to invest into that stat as Hunters do. Bakris grants 2 kinds of damage buffs and helps you move better than other dodges with what is very similar to a blink that doesnt take away your jump to use. The fact that the overshield provided by Icefall Mantle has use is beside my point. I never said it wasnt useful. My point was that its a simple benefit that comes with numerous drawbacks and penalties. Backris has 1 (and a trade off) and grants 3 benefits; while things like Star-eaters and Gyrfalcon grant several strong benefits for no penalty, in a way that Titan exotics dont. Not that Titan exotics arent useful; just that they dont grant these numerous benefits -- like 3 or 4 powerful effects at a time -- with little to no cost. If Bakris adds a 10 second stall to Marksman's Dodge's cool down at tier 10, which is about 14 seconds, thats 24 seconds. You can still shift up to twice a minute and reap the benefits. I fail to see how this is so terrible. A longer, faster, safer dodge that gives you 2 kinds of damage bonuses, and the only penalty is frequency of use. I dont feel bad for Hunters here.[/quote] It’s no different than your super not recharging when you have it activate. The cooldown is for when you don’t have the effect. Other wise you would have the over shield at all times since you can get your barricade back in sub 13 seconds or less. That wouldn’t make sense. The bakris penalty isn’t terrible. It isn’t supposed to be. It’s still an exotic. The icefall not recharging while you’re in use of the overshield isn’t bad either.
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First off, you cant compare an ovrshield from a class ability to a super. Second, barricades and rifts begin recharging while they still exist, so its not a valid point for that reason as well. Third, you cant argue "bakris should be good because its still an exotic" but accept all the limitations placed on icefall unquestioningly. Huge double standard and hunter bias.
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Editado por Bore: 1/29/2023 1:35:37 PM[quote]First off, you cant compare an ovrshield from a class ability to a super. Second, barricades and rifts begin recharging while they still exist, so its not a valid point for that reason as well. Third, you cant argue "bakris should be good because its still an exotic" but accept all the limitations placed on icefall unquestioningly. Huge double standard and hunter bias.[/quote] Read what was actually compared to a super before replying next time. Both icefall and bakris have a cooldown penalty because their exotic effect is strong. It’s a set duration instead of a scaler like other exotics. Renewal grapes applies a scaler instead of a set duration. Citans applies a scaler instead of a set duration. Those things are there to balance out the exotic effect. It really is that simple. Please play another class instead of crying class bias. It’s not class bias, bakris has the same cooldown penalty as icefall.
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Editado por Einward Spiegel: 1/30/2023 10:40:53 AMYou literally said "its no different than your super not recharging when you have it active." Dont now pretend you didnt. Thats blatantly dishonest Icefall grants 2 benefits; replaces barricades with an overshield, and creates a localized slow effect. For those two effects, you recieve two penalties; you are slowed (which has several ramifications), and your CA is not recharging at all until it break or wears off -- whereas a normal barricade begins recharging as soon as its cast. Bakris also replaces a class ability, but improves mobility while executing it, offers cloaking, gives a buff to your arc weapons, AND lets you deal extra damage of any kind to ALL slowed of frozen enemies. Even if it scales the dodge cooldown to be longer, that is objectively not the same thing as not recharging it at all. This can also be countered by numerous means of recharching abilities (armor mods, e-wells/ elemental spawn objects, weapon perks, etc). The two penalties are not the same, no matter how many mental gymnastics you try to pull. Also, Bakris has numerous additional benefits for this supposedly "evenly balanced penalty" which icefall does not have. This is a complete apples to oranges comparison; just like your class ability to super comparison.
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Editado por Bore: 1/30/2023 1:56:27 PM[quote]You literally said "its no different than your super not recharging when you have it active." Dont now pretend you didnt. Thats blatantly dishonest[/quote] And it isn’t any different. I never compared the strength of the ability, just the basic way that the cooldown works. While in the ability, the ability will no recharge. Again, please read before replying. [quote] Icefall grants 2 benefits; replaces barricades with an overshield, and creates a localized slow effect. For those two effects, you recieve two penalties; you are slowed (which has several ramifications), and your CA is not recharging at all until it break or wears off -- whereas a normal barricade begins recharging as soon as its cast. Bakris also replaces a class ability, but improves mobility while executing it, offers cloaking, gives a buff to your arc weapons, AND lets you deal extra damage of any kind to ALL slowed of frozen enemies. Even if it scales the dodge cooldown to be longer, that is objectively not the same thing as not recharging it at all. This can also be countered by numerous means of recharching abilities (armor mods, e-wells/ elemental spawn objects, weapon perks, etc). The two penalties are not the same, no matter how many mental gymnastics you try to pull. Also, Bakris has numerous additional benefits for this supposedly "evenly balanced penalty" which icefall does not have. This is a complete apples to oranges comparison; just like your class ability to super comparison.[/quote] The whole point of the pause is so that you can’t just activate another overshield immediately after it wears off. You inability do grasp that simple concept does not invalidate its existence. They’re not going to give you a permanent 100 health overshield that has a cooldown shorter than the overshields duration. Not to mention in pve it also provides 65% damage resistance while the overshield is active, which stacks with the resilience damage resistance. Bakris literally pauses the cooldown in the exact same way as icefall. Only difference is that icefall can have its ability canceled or extended. While you have your damage buff from bakris, the ability does not recharge at all. Read before replying or even just use the thing yourself a single time. And once again, read the actual comparison made to a super. Poor reading comprehension does not invalidate what was said.
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I didnt ssy you compared the strength. You appear to be projecting your own lack of reading comprehension onto me. To repeat myself, these are not comparable mechanics. A barricade, rift, or dodge normally begins cooling down as soon as its casting is complete. A tier 10 resil Titan can cast a second barricade before the first one disappears as a result. As well, a Bastion Sentinel Titan is not forced to wait for the void overshield to disappear before being allowed to have barricade begin cooling down. Nor does any other source of overshields block CA cooldown while the overshield is active. There is even a Stasis Fragment that grants overshields for picking up Stasis Shards, and that does not impede CA cooldown either. So clearly this is not a simple matter of game balancing, since this is a unique penalty for a fairly common benefit; as well as the penalties for being slowed. In sharp contrast, the Hunter exotic Gyrfalcon's Hauberk grants deployable overshields among numerous other benefits for a very simple activation condition, and carries no such penalties; despite also granting Volatile rounds just for dodging, bonus damage to all weapons, and actually improved CA regeneration instead of pausing it. See I am comparing like for like here. I have compared two exotics which both grant overshields for using class abilities. Your comparison of the functions of barricades and supers was nonsequitur and nonsensical.
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Editado por Bore: 1/31/2023 10:43:55 PM[quote]I didnt ssy you compared the strength. You appear to be projecting your own lack of reading comprehension onto me. To repeat myself, these are not comparable mechanics. A barricade, rift, or dodge normally begins cooling down as soon as its casting is complete. A tier 10 resil Titan can cast a second barricade before the first one disappears as a result. As well, a Bastion Sentinel Titan is not forced to wait for the void overshield to disappear before being allowed to have barricade begin cooling down. Nor does any other source of overshields block CA cooldown while the overshield is active. There is even a Stasis Fragment that grants overshields for picking up Stasis Shards, and that does not impede CA cooldown either. So clearly this is not a simple matter of game balancing, since this is a unique penalty for a fairly common benefit; as well as the penalties for being slowed. In sharp contrast, the Hunter exotic Gyrfalcon's Hauberk grants deployable overshields among numerous other benefits for a very simple activation condition, and carries no such penalties; despite also granting Volatile rounds just for dodging, bonus damage to all weapons, and actually improved CA regeneration instead of pausing it. See I am comparing like for like here. I have compared two exotics which both grant overshields for using class abilities. Your comparison of the functions of barricades and supers was nonsequitur and nonsensical.[/quote] Gfalcon provides a sub 40 hp overshield after finishing an enemy while invis and then activating class ability. The overhauls also provides 50% dr. Icefall provides a 100 hp overshield and 65% dr. You get less and you’re required to do more, hence there being no cooldown penalty. There is zero reason in allowing you to have a permanent 100 hp overshield and 65% dr. Behemoth getting an os from shards requires 2 full abilities, which have longer cooldowns than icefall. It also only works on behemoth. Bastion barricade provides a weaker debuf and slows the barricade cooldown, making it impossible to keep the os by the time you get another barricade. You show a clear lack of understanding when it comes to different abilities, even abilities on the class you supposedly main.
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Gyrfalcon also offers the other benefits of free Volatile rounds just for dodging, as well as extra weapon damage, on top of the overshield; as well as providing them to team mates, yet there is no counter balance penalty. Overshields all around plus 2 kinds of extra damage, just for dodging and doing a finisher. Thats a huge reward for very little effort. It is blatantly untrue that stasis shard overshields only work for titans. Every class has a "Harvest" Aspect to create shards, and every class as access to the same Fragment that turns them into overshield. The methodology of creating them varies a little, but every class is plenty capable of producing them abundantly. I agree that it would be OP for Titans to have a permanant overshield -- but there are ways of handling that. And its not necessary to have that penalty, AND the numerous penalties that come with being Slowed at the same time. Not to mention that an overshield is not providing cover for team mates the way a barricade does, unless the Titan is standing there being a living barricade -- in which case, just use a barricade or existing cover. So the Titan has this strong overshield, but no barricade in front of it, and can only walk. If the Titan is out in the open, hes a big far target to be shredded. If hes behind cover -- why the overshield, if he cant move in and out of cover quickly, due to being Slowed? Best he can hope for is to out duel someone who doesnt know how to use cover.
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[quote]Gyrfalcon also offers the other benefits of free Volatile rounds just for dodging, as well as extra weapon damage, on top of the overshield; as well as providing them to team mates, yet there is no counter balance penalty. Overshields all around plus 2 kinds of extra damage, just for dodging and doing a finisher. Thats a huge reward for very little effort.[/quote] Again, the OS is weaker and requires more effort to set up than just using your class ability. It requires an enemy that is weak enough to finish and then you being invis while you finish them. You then need to activate your class ability to get the bonus. It additionally doesn’t work in PvP. [quote] It is blatantly untrue that stasis shard overshields only work for titans. Every class has a "Harvest" Aspect to create shards, and every class as access to the same Fragment that turns them into overshield. The methodology of creating them varies a little, but every class is plenty capable of producing them abundantly.[/quote] Reread what I said. The method I mentioned is only possible on behemoth and no other titan class. Icefall works on all titan subclasses. No where did I say that the overshield fragment was exclusive to titan… [quote] I agree that it would be OP for Titans to have a permanant overshield -- but there are ways of handling that. And its not necessary to have that penalty, AND the numerous penalties that come with being Slowed at the same time. Not to mention that an overshield is not providing cover for team mates the way a barricade does, unless the Titan is standing there being a living barricade -- in which case, just use a barricade or existing cover.[/quote] The cooldown penalty is extremely minor. If you wanted to say the movement penalty is too strict, I agree. You should still have your jump available. The pause on the cooldown is perfectly fine as is. The ability will not recharge while you are using it, which makes perfect sense considering the 65% dr and 100 hp that also stacks with the 40% (soon to be 30%) dr from 100 resil. You could further stack it with something like heir apparent. [quote] So the Titan has this strong overshield, but no barricade in front of it, and can only walk. If the Titan is out in the open, hes a big far target to be shredded. If hes behind cover -- why the overshield, if he cant move in and out of cover quickly, due to being Slowed? Best he can hope for is to out duel someone who doesnt know how to use cover.[/quote] 65% damage resistance on top of 100 extra health is an extremely high buff. It can be cancelled at any time to resume your normal movement speed and cooldown.
