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Editado por Kamots:
1/30/2015 2:45:42 PM
14
[quote]Free will is freedom to choose everything involving you. So from the start of your life, you had no free will because you did not chose when, where, and who you were born to. Even more so, what species you were, what planet and so on.[/quote]
Free will is the freedom to choose. It does not necessarily require the ability to be completely devoid of influence.
[quote]But lets imagine you did pick here, even the rest of your life, you are not calling the shots. It may seem like in your mind that you are making decisions but they are made for you. You are basing those decisions on things like, history, events, and things you observe. So are you really making those decisions.[/quote]
Even though something can influence your decisions, that does not mean you are not making them.
[quote]Imagine this, if God is real, and God had a rewind button and just went back 1 hour. and hit play, Everything would happen exactly as it did, unless he changed something (maybe where a wave hit, or move a rock out of the way of somebody tripping)[/quote]
He wouldn't change anything, so it probably would. To continue your own assumptions, such a being exists at every moment of our timeline. He would have already changed anything he wanted to. Additionally, would it matter? Why can somebody not make the same decision twice? That would not be against the idea of free will.
[quote]To take it a step further, how many people said.. if I were you I would do things different? Nope, actually if I were you and I was made up of the same particles as you, and I had your past interactions then I would be doing the same thing you are doing right now.[/quote]
This is because you would have to [b]be[/b] me for that to be the case. You would not be a different me making the same decisions, you would be me.
[quote]If you look at it that way, are criminals really at fault when they make bad decisions? Because if you were them, you would be making the same ones.[/quote]
Only because we would be them, not us. That does not change the fact that we as a society should not want those people doing criminal things. Especially because they probably could choose to be different.
[quote]If we don't have free will and that means freedom to choose everything then how can we be at fault for anything?
This has a really big impact on what we are, how we got here and so on.[/quote]
If we found a species of animal that couldn't help but kill all humans, does that mean we should let it kill all humans? It is at fault for attacking us, regardless of whether or not it has a choice in the matter. Realistically, it chooses to attack as a result of what it is.
[quote]If a God created us, then he 'knowing all' would know that we would be in this situation. he would have though it out better prior to creating us. If we can ponder it, then God already knows it.[/quote]
He hasn't necessarily thought it out, he exists at literally every moment of time, in his own present tense.
[quote]If we are a computer simulation then our free will is a program, this gives us artificial intelligence, but still it is situational. no worries folks, they will fix the bugs (better than Bungie I hope) and somebody will play again. (lets hope they keep the electric on)[/quote]
A sentient computer can still make choices within its factual existence.
[quote]If we are just by chance, well then for sure 100% there is no free will, but don't worry because this is not as bad as it seems, because billions of years went by before you arrived and it never bothered you.. so there will be nothing to worry about after.[/quote]
Even if we are by chance, that does not mean we do not have free will. We can still choose within our factual existence. Some intellectuals point towards interactions on a quantum level for this. Although, if I am to be honest, this would still require some faith.
[quote]Ok I will also leave you with this question... If you died and went to Heaven, who is to say that Heaven is not simply a computer program? We can program God mode in games now.[/quote]
Would it matter? As of now, all we know is our own reality. Unless the "God" figure chose to let us find out about the truth, we could never tell the difference. Nor, really, would he be any different, necessarily, from the conventional idea of God.
If I was to put it into words, we have free will within a set. Each choice we make (as well as simply every experience that we have) narrows our future choices. The tree of future possibilities (some would say our choice of alternate universes) is further restricted.
English
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Our brain is an incredibly complex chemical reaction. Within a controlled chemical reaction there can only be one result, therefore we have no free will. Science can detect an idea within the brain before we are even aware of it. At the end of the day we have as much freedom as a thrown rock. We will keep moving and we will land, but have absolutely no influence over anything that happens in the meantime.
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It is still unknown whether this is entirely the case. I've mentioned it multiple times, but there are some who think that quantum interactions allow for more than what you describe. And again, while the most technical level this seems to be the case, it would be foolish to make any a definitive claim without more information. The brain, as you say, is incredibly complex.
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What basis would you give to presume free will?
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*sigh* I would prefer that people read my posts before asking questions, just in case the answer to the question is so obviously in the post being responded to.
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You assert that we have some level of choice, but based on what?
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[quote]*sigh* I would prefer that people read my posts before asking questions, just in case the answer to the question is so obviously in the post being responded to.[/quote]
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I reread it and that's all I got, it'd be nice if you just restated your point if you feel it so strong.
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To be honest, if I have to repeat myself, I don't care to talk to you. I have had too many conversations on here where people reply without reading my posts. If your question couldn't be answered by looking at any of my previous posts, I would respond. However, it easily can. That there is a problem indicates that there will be another in the future. If it's all the same to you, I just don't care for it.
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I've read your post and honestly can't discern anything solid from it. Maybe it's my problem but I'd still like to know
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[quote]Even though something can influence your decisions, that does not mean you are not making them.[/quote] If your choice is influenced is it really a choice? How about this if I asked you to pick a food in your mind you would think it through and pic one. But you can only pick what you know of. How many of you would pick Lahpet? [quote]He wouldn't change anything, so it probably would. To continue your own assumptions, such a being exists at every moment of our timeline. He would have already changed anything he wanted to. Additionally, would it matter? Why can somebody not make the same decision twice? That would not be against the idea of free will.[/quote] We would make the same decision every time. Write now you are choosing to read this because something drew you here something influenced you, something helped you make the decisions. Like I am here typing this because of your response. Lets supposed I was a super genius and I could program the universe, I could replicate it. and i knew exactly what particles to start with and the calculations for everything (gravity, materials all of that., and Boom I started it. Who is to say things wouldn't turn out exactly as they are here in my simulation? [quote]He hasn't necessarily thought it out, he exists at literally every moment of time, in his own present tense.[/quote] If so, then he already knows who is going to hell, who is not. In the case of God, everybody has already made their choices, now we are just living them. [quote]A sentient computer can still make choices within its factual existence.[/quote] Having limitations, even those set by computers prevents free will. An A or B choice is not even close to free will, its multiple choice. A lot of people of religion already know the answers. they know where they came from, why they are here, and where they will end up. So for them it is just wait and see. For me it is different, I never stop wondering, I never stop asking questions. Even if God appeared before you, does that really mean that is the ultimate existence? If not how many levels of existence are there? If you were a God, all knowing, forever existing, then it would be suffice to say that you would somehow want to change things up and in a non God way. For example, if you already know everything, no need to play games, because you know everything that happens, and you even know the experience you get from playing it. You would actually know all of your decisions, all of the time and forever so why would you do anything? Now imagine you had the power for eternity, trillions of years of this, and then add forever on to it. The one way to escape this is to create a simulation and jump in it. Block all of your knowledge of being a God and experience things from infancy. Life, death, struggle, pain, sorrow, happiness, success, and so on. and as you build up those experiences, and you pass on into God mode.. its like hitting the lottery, Wow, it feels great to be a supreme being. If we could simulate a universe in the next 1000 years, then who is to say we are not a simulation? If we are simulated, then whoever created us, could be simulated, and where does it actually end? This is a little off topic of free will, but still where we came from, why are we here, where we will go, all influences our free will.
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Sorry, I will fix quote problems later.
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Editado por Kamots: 1/30/2015 7:03:08 PM[quote]If your choice is influenced is it really a choice? How about this if I asked you to pick a food in your mind you would think it through and pic one. But you can only pick what you know of. How many of you would pick Lahpet?[/quote] Yes, it is a choice. Influence does not matter. [quote]We would make the same decision every time. Write now you are choosing to read this because something drew you here something influenced you, something helped you make the decisions. Like I am here typing this because of your response. Lets supposed I was a super genius and I could program the universe, I could replicate it. and i knew exactly what particles to start with and the calculations for everything (gravity, materials all of that., and Boom I started it. Who is to say things wouldn't turn out exactly as they are here in my simulation?[/quote] It might. It might not. It is impossible within our reality to do so, so it matters not. Even if it was possible and it did happen the same way, that itself doesn't matter. Free will does not necessitate it be otherwise. Additionally, quantum effects, like I said earlier, might have something to say about that. Or they might not. [quote]If so, then he already knows who is going to hell, who is not. In the case of God, everybody has already made their choices, now we are just living them.[/quote] For him, not exactly. It is true that everybody has made their choices in his view, but it isn't that they are living them. Not to him or to them. It would not make sense to say otherwise. [quote]Having limitations, even those set by computers prevents free will. An A or B choice is not even close to free will, its multiple choice.[/quote] It does not prevent free will, though it could be argued that it limits it. It could also be argued that, to a point, limitations foster free will. Without them, there might not be will to be exercised. [quote]A lot of people of religion already know the answers. they know where they came from, why they are here, and where they will end up. So for them it is just wait and see. For me it is different, I never stop wondering, I never stop asking questions. Even if God appeared before you, does that really mean that is the ultimate existence? If not how many levels of existence are there?[/quote] Wondering is a good thing, with good intentions. [quote]If you were a God, all knowing, forever existing, then it would be suffice to say that you would somehow want to change things up and in a non God way. For example, if you already know everything, no need to play games, because you know everything that happens, and you even know the experience you get from playing it. You would actually know all of your decisions, all of the time and forever so why would you do anything? Now imagine you had the power for eternity, trillions of years of this, and then add forever on to it. The one way to escape this is to create a simulation and jump in it. Block all of your knowledge of being a God and experience things from infancy. Life, death, struggle, pain, sorrow, happiness, success, and so on. and as you build up those experiences, and you pass on into God mode.. its like hitting the lottery, Wow, it feels great to be a supreme being. [/quote] While it would be against the traditional God to act against his own nature, it could be argued that Jesus is an example of that. I also am loathe to pretend I would understand the purposes of such a being. [quote]If we could simulate a universe in the next 1000 years, then who is to say we are not a simulation? If we are simulated, then whoever created us, could be simulated, and where does it actually end? This is a little off topic of free will, but still where we came from, why are we here, where we will go, all influences our free will.[/quote] It is entirely possible that we are an infinite loop of computer simulations. The question is, would it matter?
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Maybe its more like this.. we don't have the ability or knowledge to know if we have free will. For me confinement to our society is a clear indicator that free will does not exist and even if you were the first person on earth, you still have very strict limits.
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[quote]we don't have the ability or knowledge to know if we have free will.[/quote] I would disagree, in that I think we have plenty of reason to believe that we have free will. What we don't have the ability to know is specifically that we have absolutely no free will, as that would require at minimum a level of understanding of how everything works that might not even be possible. [quote]For me confinement to our society is a clear indicator that free will does not exist[/quote] For me, the fact that you can feel that confinement to our society indicates a lack of free will is pretty strong evidence that you actually do have free will. [quote]you still have very strict limits.[/quote] Limits do not denote a lack of free will.
