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4/18/2013 12:14:33 AM
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A fetus isn't a person until it is capable of biological independence. So abort away, ladies!
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Why do pro-choice people always seem to think all women want abortions? I wouldn't kill my baby if I had to.
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Then don't.
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Well that seems to have been their argument for quite a while.
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What? That all women should want abortions? That has never been the argument.
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I hate when people think pro-choice people think that we always want abortions, we don't we just want the option to.
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I know you don't always want abortions, I'm just limiting the scope of its use to where it is okay under our current murder laws.
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I know people that would never consider abortion as an option for them, but still think people should have the freedom to do so if they desire. Those people are great, and they should be appreciated. :3
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Did you read the OP? You do, only if it threatens your life. And why abort when adoption is available?
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Because the Foster system is overburdened by the children it already has.
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No. Women have the right to get as many abortions as they want, as often as they want.
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*Sigh* I just managed to define abortion which is the ending of a life in the OP. Are women allowed to kill their other children who are also alive as well? Please go read omg a bannana and I's arguement at the bottom of the page to save yourself some time.
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Editado por King Dutchy: 4/18/2013 12:56:18 AM[quote]I just managed to define abortion which is the ending of a life in the OP.[/quote]You defined a lot of things that aren't widely agreed upon, as Lies pointed out. Nothing you typed in the OP is compelling enough to sway an opinion not only because you did a poor job at using "logic", but because your post's format was bloody awful. You don't have to press enter whenever you finish a sentence.
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I tried to keep it simple in the OP so as not to lose anyone. WIkipedia's definition of life: From the Biology Part of Wikipedia: "Life is considered a characteristic of organisms that exhibit all or most of the following." " Homeostasis: Regulation of the internal environment to maintain a constant state; for example, electrolyte concentration or sweating to reduce temperature. [u]Organization[/u]: Being structurally composed of one or more cells — the basic units of life. [u]Metabolism[/u]: Transformation of energy by converting chemicals and energy into cellular components (anabolism) and decomposing organic matter (catabolism). Living things require energy to maintain internal organization (homeostasis) and to produce the other phenomena associated with life. [u]Growth[/u]: Maintenance of a higher rate of anabolism than catabolism. A growing organism increases in size in all of its parts, rather than simply accumulating matter. Adaptation: The ability to change over time in response to the environment. This ability is fundamental to the process of evolution and is determined by the organism's heredity, diet, and external factors. [u]Response to stimuli[/u]: A response can take many forms, from the contraction of a unicellular organism to external chemicals, to complex reactions involving all the senses of multicellular organisms. A response is often expressed by motion; for example, the leaves of a plant turning toward the sun (phototropism), and chemotaxis. Reproduction: The ability to produce new individual organisms, either asexually from a single parent organism, or sexually from two parent organisms." Underlined portions are exhibited by a first trimester fetus. 4/7=most
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Ending life does not equal murder. Murder is the killing of a person, a fetus is not a person, ergo abortion is not murder.
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Editado por MartinOfRedwall: 4/18/2013 12:54:25 AM[quote] Murder is the killing of a person[/quote] I agree wholeheartedly^ The OP explains why the fetus is a person. Did you not read it??? Firstly, disprove my OP. Secondly, enlighten me on when person hood begins if it does not begin when you, as an individual, exist.
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Editado por Swim Good: 4/18/2013 1:15:21 AM[quote]The OP explains why the fetus is a person.[/quote] No, it doesn't. You use a terrible definition of "life" and then crowbar it into your beliefs on abortion. Look at my responses in this thread to see a proper biological definition of life. If your OP is correct, how do you explain the fact that medical science in nearly every Western country disagrees with you and says that abortion up to the end of the first trimester should be allowed?
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Wikipedia defines life: "Life (cf. biota) is a characteristic that distinguishes objects that have signaling and self-sustaining processes from those that do not." Wikipedia defines Signaling and self-sustaining processes: "A biological process is a process of a living organism. Biological processes are made up of any number of chemical reactions or other events that results in a transformation. Regulation of biological processes occurs where any process is modulated in its frequency, rate or extent. Biological processes are regulated by many means; examples include the control of gene expression, protein modification or interaction with a protein or substrate molecule." Happy with this definition? A fetus is human life.
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Editado por Swim Good: 4/18/2013 1:26:49 AMAgain you're twisting definitions and cherrypicking lines from a wikipedia article to fit your argument. I also notice you never actually gave a definition for self-sustaining processes but just biological processes (which is obviously an umbrella term of which self-sustaining processes are a part). That wouldn't be because a fetus, by its very nature, isn't self-sustaining would it? The definition you should have used from that wikipedia page was the [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Life#Biology]"Biology"[/url] part of the article (which, funnily enough, agrees with what I said below). I doubt you'd do that though seeing as how a fetus fails to satisfy over half of those criteria.
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Editado por MartinOfRedwall: 4/18/2013 1:37:58 AMIs a newborn baby self sustaining? What about a second and third trimester fetus? It depends on the mother's body just as much as a first trimester fetus. From the Biology Part: "Life is considered a characteristic of organisms that exhibit all [u][b]or most[/b][/u] of the following." " [u]Homeostasis[/u]: Regulation of the internal environment to maintain a constant state; for example, electrolyte concentration or sweating to reduce temperature. [u]Organization[/u]: Being structurally composed of one or more cells — the basic units of life. [u]Metabolism[/u]: Transformation of energy by converting chemicals and energy into cellular components (anabolism) and decomposing organic matter (catabolism). Living things require energy to maintain internal organization (homeostasis) and to produce the other phenomena associated with life. [u]Growth[/u]: Maintenance of a higher rate of anabolism than catabolism. A growing organism increases in size in all of its parts, rather than simply accumulating matter. Adaptation: The ability to change over time in response to the environment. This ability is fundamental to the process of evolution and is determined by the organism's heredity, diet, and external factors. [u]Response to stimuli[/u]: A response can take many forms, from the contraction of a unicellular organism to external chemicals, to complex reactions involving all the senses of multicellular organisms. A response is often expressed by motion; for example, the leaves of a plant turning toward the sun (phototropism), and chemotaxis. Reproduction: The ability to produce new individual organisms, either asexually from a single parent organism, or sexually from two parent organisms." True, a fetus cannot reproduce or adapt. But 5/7 is [u][b]most[/b][/u]. Or are you going to argue against the definition of most?
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Editado por Swim Good: 4/18/2013 1:42:36 AMA first trimester fetus does not adapt, respond to external stimuli, have the ability to reproduce or carry out homeostasis on its own. So that's 4/7 it fails on which is most of them. Or are you going to argue with the definition of most? Unless you actually think a fetus responds to external stimuli and carries out its own homeostasis?
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[quote]Unless you actually think a fetus responds to external stimuli and carries out it own homeostasis?[/quote] Single-celled organisms do both. A first trimester is mutli-cellular and more than capable. Fetus. Columbia Electronic Encyclopedia, 6th Edition " In the third month, facial features continue to develop, nails form, ossification centers develop in bones, the sex of the unborn can be determined, and [u]the fetus is capable of responding to outside stimulation[/u]." "In humans, the fetal stage begins seven to eight weeks after fertilization of the egg, when the embryo assumes the basic shape of the newborn and [u]all the organs are present[/u]." Implying the capability to perform homeostasis. While I admit that it undermines my argument slightly, it proves that a first trimester fetus is capapble of both.
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Editado por Swim Good: 4/18/2013 2:21:39 AMAccording to [url=http://misacor-usa.org/index.php/fetal-development]this[/url] a fetus responds to external stimuli in the 14th week which is outside the first trimester (which is the accepted cut-off point for abortions unless there's a danger to the mother). Where'd you get your quote from as I couldn't see a link? A fetus does not have true homeostasis until it is born and the umbilical cord is severed as the [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Placenta]placenta[/url] is the organ responsible for many of the functions that constitute homeostasis in a fetus. A fetus' temperature is also regulated more by the amniotic fluid than by its internal mechanisms and can be said to be [url=http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15673956]maternally dependent until birth[/url]. So it can't be said to have true homeostasis whilst the fetus is in utero. So it fails on 4/7. I'm going to have to go to sleep as I have work in the morning but will respond tomorrow should you say anything new.
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Editado por MartinOfRedwall: 4/18/2013 3:02:09 AMhttp://web.ebscohost.com/lrc/detail?vid=4&sid=4b61f56b-a4ba-44b2-b417-06016fec4167%40sessionmgr13&hid=9&bdata=JnNpdGU9bHJjLXBsdXM%3d#db=lkh&AN=39006294 Fetus. Columbia Electronic Encyclopedia, 6th Edition, In the third month, facial features continue to develop, nails form, ossification centers develop in bones, the sex of the unborn can be determined, and [u]the fetus is capable of responding to outside stimulation[/u]. I conceded on Homeostasis, but 4/7 are still in favor. I'm tired as well.
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Editado por Swim Good: 4/18/2013 9:33:35 AMInteresting. The earliest reference I could find for response to external stimuli was the [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fetal_movement#Second_trimester]12th week[/url] which is counted as the 2nd trimester. I am, however, willing to concede that it may begin at any point during the third month given that scholarly articles state it is uncertain when response begins due to the difficulties of testing a live fetus. I would suggest that all you've done is show that life begins in the third month at the earliest which would still give a viable period when an abortion could be carried out (4-8 weeks). We would probably just be splitting hairs at that point and, as you're one of the most reasonable pro-lifers I've spoken to, I think agreeing to disagree would probably be best seeing as how there is more to the abortion debate than simply "when does life begin".
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Editado por MartinOfRedwall: 4/18/2013 3:39:48 AM[deleted]
