Hello Mr KG! This is how i imagine you in these forums https://youtu.be/RGPJ1AKkScU Cheers, Sir!

Wow. That is most dedication to sucking up to Bungie I’ve seen in a while.

Kelly i think its been like half a year since i debated sunsetting in destiny 2 with you. Every time we talked about it you bought up how other loot games do this and i told you that they have much better loot systems in the game that make sunsetting less painful. Can you at the very least agree that while sunsetting may not be the worst thing in the world this current iteration of it is not right?

[quote]Kelly i think its been like half a year since i debated sunsetting in destiny 2 with you. Every time we talked about it you bought up how other loot games do this and i told you that they have much better loot systems in the game that make sunsetting less painful.[/quote] Even in D1 the loot system was designed a lot better when sunsetting took place that it was less painful. That is the main issue with this game, how poorly it was designed and it hurt the game in many ways and Bungie is not trying to fix it at all. They keep fighting it making matters worse for the game as time moves on.

Unfortunately he probably won’t.

Like im not saying sunsetting wasnt needed because im sure we would all still be using things like recluse. But this game in particular with random rolls on gear and how scarce they are with loot and having no form of crafting gear is kinda lack luster. Im frustrated with sunsetting because they shouldve added things into the game to balance it out. Doing a raid and getting 1 item per encounter is outdated.

[quote]Like im not saying sunsetting wasnt needed because im sure we would all still be using things like recluse. [/quote] I disagree, imo sunsetting wasnt needed whatsoever. You mentioned recluse but that gun recieved 2 nerfs pre-arrivals and arrivals nerfing feeding frenzy made gnawing hunger replace recluse entirely Any gear that is considered too strong could have received nerfs. The only problem guns people bring up are recluse, mountaintop and revoker. Firstly all those were created to be better then other legendaries, so no wonder they saw more use. But secondly the community would have much rather had revoker get a perk change and mt and recluse get nerfed (as again recluse did several times and mt just got a nerf with beyond light anyway and would have seen less use) then lose 300+ guns alongside them

Im trying to reason with both sides personally ive always been anti sunsetting but that said i can see reasons for it. If you find gear you love youll never have a reason to switch and it ruins any point in farming. Sunsetting could be an ok concept if we were able to craft our own gear and if loot was less stingy

[quote]If you find gear you love youll never have a reason to switch and it ruins any point in farming.[/quote] Maybe I'm old fashioned but I dont see this as a problem. The majority of this community still grind after every gun that's part of a good archtype with solid perk pools, who cares if some individuals decide they're happy with what they have and dont feel it necessary to grind?

Crafting would kill this game. Also the player psychology is different. It’s why the end game currency grind is burning people out. Generosity is the key. But you have to overhaul the weapon system and the loot system first. You can’t be generous until you have a game that can generate loot in enough [i]quantity[/i] and [i]variety[/i] to support it. Blackburn’s blogs seems to show that we finally have leadership that understands this and is moving to fix it. Sunsetting isn’t the enemy. It’s the first step—-an essential step—to fixing the long term problems that have dogged this game. Because there is no point to fixing any of this if you let people keep everything and drag it with them through the life of the game.

I’ve heard some really cool ideas about how they could upgrade the weapons system with perk trees... weapons roll with two base perks and then after some use let the players choose from maybe three variants of each perk. Adept weapons would get to choose two of the variants. An example could be dragonfly as a base perk and then variants could include dot damage... or having enemies drop pools when they die... or meganeura. More depth with elements would be good as a next step... to keep the example with dragonfly going, solar could apply burn damage, void could be implosion instead of explosion and draw enemies together, arc could blind... Sunsetting was definitely needed... now Bungie needs to lean into variety and generosity in the upcoming seasons.

[quote]I’ve heard some really cool ideas about how they could upgrade the weapons system with perk trees... weapons roll with two base perks and then after some use let the players choose from maybe three variants of each perk. Adept weapons would get to choose two of the variants.[/quote]. Agreed. I think that is a better way to go than the mod system that they are currently using. [quote]More depth with elements would be good as a next step... to keep the example with dragonfly going, solar could apply burn damage, void could be implosion instead of explosion and draw enemies together, arc could blind...[/quote] Agreed....again. But then we bump right into the Elephant in the Living Room. **PvP**. Shit. All those suggestions would be amazing in PVE...but Oh My God, could you imagine the outrage if Bungie dropped those elemental effects into PVP??!!??!!. Oh, man it would make the current raging about Stasis sound like a lover's spat. Your suggestion is PRECISELY why I keep saying that PVE and PVP in this game is a BAD MARRIAGE. PVP and the narrow range of play mechanics that comp shooter gamers are willing to accept is an ANCHOR around the neck of this game, and the ability of devs to come up with creative game play and desirable loot. There HAS to be a divorce between PVE and PVP if this game is every going to reach its potential on the PVE side. [quote]Sunsetting was definitely needed... now Bungie needs to lean into variety and generosity in the upcoming seasons.[/quote] Mic drop. Literally couldn't have said it better myself, and have nothing to add to it.

Why are you saying it is necessary? Is it because Bungie said it was "necessary" and you simply choose to believe them because of reasons? People are levelling legitimate criticisms towards Sunsetting because they have, justifiably, identified one of the biggest issues behind sunsetting in a game like Destiny 2. Destiny 2, which is meant to be an MMO, people want the time and investment they put into the game to be worth it. They want it to be respected. What they do not want is the developers to suddenly invalidate all that effort by telling the players, [i][b]three years[/b][/i] into the game: "You can't use this two/three-year-old gun anymore because we want you to use guns on strictly a yearly basis now." This isn't "necessary" for the game's survival. This is just what Luke Smith decided one day he wanted his "Fantasyland" to be. It's all based on number and data points, not actual player feedback. It's not based on player experience at all. Guns that players loved were sunset with Beyond Light because Luke Smith wanted this new "system". They go on and on about not wanting FOMO in their TWABs, but Sunsetting ensures FOMO for any players who don't join the game within a certain time period. And before you say "BUT THEY'RE HAVING SEASONAL CONTENT STICK AROUND ALL YEAR", let me make one thing transparent: Escalation Protocol lasted over two years. All of the Seasonal activities introduced in Year 2 of Destiny 2 (Drifter, Forge, Opulence) stuck around for the entirety of Year 3. It was only Year 3 that had the [b]stupid [/b]decision to end activities with the Season they were introduced in. Seasonal activities sticking around for a whole year isn't an "upgrade"; [b]it's still a downgrade from what was done with Year 2 content (until Year 4, that is).[/b] ------------------------------------------------------------------- There are other ways to ensure a game can survive three more years, but a game's survival is dependent on player engagement as well as genuine effort on the part of the game developers. If the developers don't do everything they can to make a game enjoyable, to make players want to continue player, they will lose players and the game will slowly die. You claim sunsetting is THE WAY the game will survive for three more years, but all feedback points towards it not being the case. The game will only suffer over the next three years because of the long shadow that Sunsetting will cast on all future content. In other words, Luke Smith's modus operandi seems to be giving the game's content a "hard reset" every year, which is nothing more than an enforced "Fear Of Missing Out". Anyone who buys Destiny 2 a year, two years from now in the Witch Queen and Lightfall expansions will not only miss out on all the content that defined the first three years of Destiny 2 but also the year(s) preceding it. [b]There are far better ways to make the game better and ensure it survives three more years than what Smith is having done.[/b]

Destiny 2 Engagement Numbers for 1/29/21 Overall: 859K PVE: 780K Crucible: 296K Gambit: 142K Raids: 101K Trials 34K As my dad used to say, "You can either fight the problem...or you can fix the problem. But you can't do both." His point is you can either dedicate your energy to denying the reality of the situation, or you can dedicate your energy to dealing with that reality. But not both at the same time. The reality of the situation is that Overall player engagement numbers are stable. PVE numbers are right where they traditionally are at the end of a season. Around 800K...and then rebounds to 1 to 1.2 million at the start of the new season The only numbers that are down are the game's PVP numbers....and that is due to issues in the game that go WAY beyond sunsetting. The fact of the matter is that the average Destiny player DOESN"T CARE. They either accept the necessity of sunsetting, or it doesn't impact how they experience the game enough for them to stop playing. The fact of the matter is that EVERY successful loot game sunsets and reissues gear. If you don't see it at work in other games, then you aren't looking closely enough. NO ONE ELSE does what Bungie tried to do....and Bungie wasted FIVE YEARS rediscovering why this rule of game design is in fact a rule. While I understand people's frustration at having their stuff taken away, the reality of the situation is that this was a promise that Bungie NEVER should have made, and I predicted five years ago (because of the facts of the prior paragraph) that Bungie would never be able to follow through on. The fact is that this game's loot system self-destructs every two years or so, because they game becomes unmanageable....and the fact that Bungie wasn't going to abandon this game for a sequel (like they did with Destiny 1 after 3 years) finally forced them to admit that what they were doing wasn't working....and to finally fix it. ...and when you fix long neglected problem....and you DENY that they are a problem (like Bungie did for five years)....that fix is goin to be painful, and costly. This is why I said, when Bungie started talking about Destiny being an "action MMO" that the game was going to change in ways that some of you weren't going to like....and that a "season of discontent" was going to hit the player base as a result. [i][b]That time is now..[/b].[/i].and Bungie is clearly committed to this course and showing NO signs of backing down. Because they reorganized their entire company **around** this. ...and the numbers are showing that they really have no business or game design reason to back down, becasue what they are doing is acceptable to the majority of their customers.

So, you are looking at this based purely on data points rather than player feedback. That you're looking at this based on "what every other MMO has done" instead of how Bungie had been doing it for six years. Destiny wasn't exchanged for Destiny 2 because the loot system was "Self-destructing". Destiny 2 came out due to mandate from Activision-Blizzard (you know, the same people who have been parasitizing everything under their banner as of late) mandated that the series release a new game every three years. That's why Destiny 2 wasn't abandoned for Destiny 3, not for the reasons you've made up. People didn't like the way the subclass tree was structured in Destiny 2 because it was a downgrade from Destiny 1. From weapons to armour to exotics, everything was downgraded and "simplified" from Destiny 1 to Destiny 2. But for six years, Bungie didn't "sunset" in Destiny 1 or Destiny 2, and players of Destiny LIKED that system. They liked the idea that weapons that became their favourites over the course of play could conceivably stick around for the rest of the game with them. It was something different from every other "action MMO", and that's what people liked about it. Actual effort was put into their weapons to make people want to use them. The feeling of genuine choice of how you want to play the game. That is what pre-Sunsetting was like. Not so with the next three years. Already, players have experienced the bite of their favourite, hard-earned weapons, their favourite armour pieces which they Masterworked and ground to attain, being Sunset. OVER HALF THE GAME WAS SUNSET, with very little introduced to replace what was Sunset. Reckoning, which provided an additional reason to play Gambit and its own unique armour that provided a new way to play the game mode? Gone and Sunset. The Leviathan's four raids and the Menagerie activity? Gone and Sunset. Black Armory Forges and their associated weapons and armour, and the Scourge of the Past Raid? Gone and Sunset. Annual expansion armour and weapons? Gone and Sunset, until Bungie realized how badly they screwed up but have only decided to return the armour sets and four weapons from each annual expansion location instead of all of them since the Lectern of Enchantment, is still virtually useless because it gives only sunset weapons. Do you not yet see the problem? So quick they were to implement Sunsetting that they even did so on the Annual Expansion pass location armour sets and weapons, EXPANSIONS WHICH THEY STILL EXPECT PEOPLE TO PAY FOR. Even then they half-assed it by only re-issuing less than half the weapons with new rolls because re-issuing all of them would be a direct confession that Sunsetting was a mistake. People are discontent not because of whatever shallow reasons you seem to think they're discontent about. They're discontent because of how badly Bungie has botched what they're doing. Because people are getting the impression that Bungie isn't listening to people's voice in the community when it comes to feedback. They probably don't even listen to whoever they have in Quality Assurance at any rate, given the number of bugs Stasis shipped with and how devastatingly powerful it was (and still is) in PvP. Yet here you are speaking as if you're the final authority on the forum on "what is best" for the game, even though you've basically defaulted to "Luke Smith does nothing wrong" just about every time I've come across you, even when people are criticizing Bungie for all the things they believe have been done wrong.