Or maybe we're pressed on time and can't do a carry? Lol what

Yeah, maybe you are. If someone has fibbed their way into your Raid and you're pressed for time I can appreciate your frustration. I would suggest not to bother Raiding via LFG if you're pressed for time; you never know what you're going to get.

How did these people that you want to carry you learn? they went in with no experience and worked it out together. Just because people have done it before you doesn't mean you should get an easy ride. Find a group of similar placed people and go through what we went through, you'll feel better for it.

Yet those that have done it are not obligated to teach others what they have learned. Why do you feel entitled to that which they have earned? Go get a team and earn that knowledge yourself

Not obligated no. I never said that. I can tell you from experience that helping guys through is a massive sense of achievement though

So I have to carry people? Is that what ur saying

Or we don't want to carry

Up to you buddy. I personally find that very selfish. Each to their own.

Why would you find it selfish though bro? I mean look at it from regular raiders perspective. Forming groups, wiping for hours and spending a month or 2 perfecting the raid takes enough time as it is. By that point most of us just want a quick 1hr to 1hr 30 mins run through because we've already paid our dues in the raid. We've all done the 3 n 4 hour raid thing with newbies. Its not exactly fun. And its absolutely draining. Isn't it selfish to expect that people should use more of their own free time on people who havnt even bothered to try set their own group up and raid and learn with others at their level, like we all had to? And most people just aren't down for that kind of time commitment. Its a step backwards. That said i will raid with anybody on a weekend when i have more free time. And i can and do help. But god forbid i make a strict lfg post on a tuesday or wednesday when im short on time, asking for 390+ w emblem and mic. Suddenly the same guy who helped people on a saturday is suddenly an elitist prick on a tuesday. Just for making a personal choice. Meanwhile , people who dont want to raid with others at their level try tell me im the one in the wrong because i dont want them weighing my team down midweek without first going through the learning process that i had to lol. Total double standards. I also disagree when people say that some are lesser skilled so we should be taking them along. Listen, im as average as you can get as a player. My kd is 0.9. My reactions are nothing special. But i get by on using my initiative to make friends, form my own groups, and use all available resources to practice and learn. And it works. So i know that people either dont give themselves enough credit for what they could achieve if they actually try. Or are just plain lazy and expect a carry.

Totally hear you on many of the points you've raised. You've put time and thought into your response and I appreciate that. The only area I would argue/question you around is on those initial 4 hour Raids which you described as being unpleasant. Personal opinion here but if you're not having fun with a group for that length of time maybe you're raiding with people that are not completely in tune with you but hey, if you get the job done in the end what does it matter right? I've had raids for that length of time and I can say, although at times frustrating, I've enjoyed the experience but maybe that's just me. We have a saying condition in our clan coined "Raid Fatigue Syndrome". When anyone starts to feel it we just call it a night or get a sub. There's always tomorrow

I dont mean lengthy raids in general arent fun bro, just the frustrating wipe filled type where there is no lack of real progress and you feel like you just wasted 3 or 4 hours of your life . I mean one night just after launch i spent about 3 hours in there with my brother just me and him at vosiks grinding charges for our book. It was fun because it was new. So the length of time isn't necesarily an issue for me. Its how we fill that time. The long learning raids are fun at the begining because they're new and exciting. And we're still learning best in slot loadouts and advanced strats. So it doesnt matter much. But after a few weeks and we've learned all that, it gets to a point you just want to blow through using advanced tips and strats you've picked up. Get our loot, them move on to another fun activity. That, at least for me prolongs the fun. Getting the raid down to a science. Going back to 4 hour raids and retreading the same wipe and learn pattern we've already been through can be very tedious. So i can totally see why somebody wouldn't want to subject themselves to that in their free time. Seeing new players get loot can be a real kick, its just the road to it isn't always so clear cut.

Thanks for having an adult conversation with me regarding this. Very rare on these forums dude 👍🏻

I get that it's a struggle for people to get accepted at times and I'm sympathetic to that, which is why I help others after I get my raids done for the week. Just don't lie, maybe others are the type to kick on the spot but I'm not going to. If you don't understand simply say that so it can be explained because people are going to figure it out, far better to speak up and have it explained then to cause us wipe after wipe while you figure it out on your own. My time is valuable too, respect that.