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#feedback

Edited by Lost Sols: 12/7/2015 2:17:30 AM
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Dreaming a better Destiny: Fighting bosses, not their endless spawn.

Greetings fellow Guardians, So something that has always bothered me a bit are people who accuse us of only complaining about Destiny. I've said numerous times, if you're going to critique or criticize something, you should also be willing to offer up suggestion on how it could be better or solutions to problems. To that end, there are many of us who do and so I'm going to create another tag for posts that offer up ideas to improve both current and future versions of Destiny so that if Bungie devs so desires, they can find them all in one place. I encourage any Guardians to use it and would only ask that you keep it for suggestions and ideas for improvements and not just to call out what you think needs fixed. The new tag will be #destinyideashop. Today I would also like to offer up to the devs two takes on what is wrong with boss battles in Destiny and how they could be made better going forward. This came about as a conversation I was having with @ll Shadow about [url=https://www.bungie.net/en/Forum/Post/149529485/0/0]@Anarchy's review of the twitch stream this week.[/url] We both have ideas on how to improve them, either would improve the experiences, but it's cool how they riff off each other. [quote][b]ll Shadow[/b]: I unlike others, enjoy that there will be another "longwinded" person adding comments and insight for me to read and enjoy, whilst commenting on it. I actually enjoyed the look of the new strike, my biggest hope is that they go back and reinvent the old tired strikes to be more in line with this one. Especially the part where the bosses move around a lot, which is a huge nice change. [b]Lost Sols[/b]: I think that's why the Archon Priest was generally everyone's favorite vanilla strike boss. He was the only one with any real unpredictability. [b]ll Shadow[/b]: I think the Archon Priest would benefit greatly from an inability to go and hide back in that entrance cavern, It would add the hectic mad dashes back into it, and it would be truly a good strike then, or at least 50% better. The only one i can’t see them changing for the better would be Omnigul, as those witches are just brutal and that room is so tiny. Any strike we currently have could benefit from some tweaking i will list examples below. Our old friend Valus and his strike could use a bunch of work, like the beginning, and that room everyone just runs through, link 3 random enemies to the door so you cannot just run through the first part, in the next area make the Goliath able to float up into the commanders area so people cannot just hide up there, also add in Cabal on Interceptors causing trouble. Once you get down to Valus himself I’m not sure how to improve him, he is just boring. Most of the Nexus is rather good actually, the end boss leaves a lot to be desired. The Nexus isn’t any different than a large Hydra, add some panels that pop open and fire off rockets, add in some rotating slap rifles to him so he can shoot people behind him, adds 3 layers of interesting to that end boss. Phogoth should literally throw thrall at you, cursed thrall too, it would add an interesting mechanic there, imagine minding your own business and then suddenly a Thrall just smacks right into you, also he should have the ability to pick you up and throw you at other guardians, makes for something a little more interesting no? Sepiks the same he needs MORE, more movement areas, possibly his blast having more than one setting, like Nova bomb does, fast, triple and massive. Along with the addition of more of the HoW Shank types in the strike with some rocket shanks! The Walker also needs to wander around the map, and deploy a variety of the aforementioned shanks. Bingo Bango Bongo improved strikes [b]Lost Sols[/b]: Here's my take on the Archon Priest and the entrance cavern. If they just made the boss fights about fighting a boss, it wouldn't be an issue. You could block off the camping spots and make people move around rooms/areas exchanging fire with bosses and counter-maneuvering. The problem is that, rather than create bosses that are challenging on their own, Bungie rely on endless adds to create difficulty; which turns any kind of pitched roving battle into insti-death from snipers or shielded majors. Let's face it; all the actual bosses would be cheese without the endless cheap spawn around them. That is Destiny's biggest design flaw in regards to boss encounters in my opinion. Hell, even raids it's the same. Were we really fighting Crota? Not really. We were fighting everything else and standing on a ledge to lower his shields. One person "fought" him... And Crota was on his knees. That's bulls**t design if you ask me. We should all have been fighting him. Using stun grenades to slow him, suppression to cut short his ability attacks, etc. I wouldn't have a problem with him at various points calling in help, but the whole fight shouldn't be filled with spawn. It's also why PoE ended up so cheap and boring in my opinion. It could have been a really tactical arena battle against a powerful boss or a team of 3-5 enemies that were cunning and worked together. Instead it's more endless spawn with cheap shielded bullet sponge adds.[/quote] Now from watching the new strike reveal, I will give Bungie credit for realizing there is a problem and attempting to improve boss fights. The switch to the twins working as a tag-team and moving about during fights is a marked improvement, but until they solve the issue of balance between the amount of adds spawning and the bosses ability to fire indefinitely, people will camp entrance rooms or find safe spots. To that end (and this has bothered me since the Halo days), I think enemy weapons should function with the same rules as ours. I've always hated the enemy-doesn't-have-to-reload mechanic. It's cheap. If you want to create real pitched battles, you can make enemies tough, but if you just make them play by the same rules, it would lead to more real fire fights and less hiding and taking pot-shots. Enemies already will take cover when damaged, why not have them do the same to reload? And going back to the fighting bosses and not adds. How much more fun would the Archon Priest be if there weren't all the shielded Shanks, invisible swords, snipers and Thrall, but instead he teleported more, was more agile and had a few more abilities like a stun or could grab a Guardian and throw them, etc. Again, I'm not saying remove all adds completely. They can definitely have their place in battles, but they shouldn't be the focus of the fights (especially vs raid bosses) and right now they demand most of our attention while we whittle away at the bosses in-between. That's my two cents on endgame boss fights. Thank-you and as always, see you all amongst the stars.

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  • bump!

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    • Archon priest was everyone's favorite vanilla strike boss? I personally didn't know anyone on my friends list who enjoyed that strike.

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    • bump~

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      • Thoughts on plausible strike mechanics for reduced adds: -Valus gets a massive shield but reduced health under it; players will have to have line-of-sight to him for sustained time periods (obviously at great personal risk themselves, as his main gun and missiles are both very powerful). -Sepiks' adds spawn less, but Sepiks behaves like an actual servitor and grants his adds powerful healing (basically, a support-centric boss, as trivial as he currently is when adds are down, but capable of making everything around him truly menacing. -Askor has less adds, but more servitors. If they don't already, then the base servitor mechanics are changed to make their healing stack (and of course apply to the boss). -Nexus constantly constructs obstacles (or those accursed explosive boxes that keep getting me) near the players. Taking too much damage from any direction causes his shield to instantly move to block it, but the shield does not move naturally (so players must either stay moving, or split the party, potentially causing trouble). -I love the idea of phogoth throwing things at you, but as that's a little much to expect to be freshly added (it would mean new AI mechanics, new animations, and new balance concerns) I thinks something less ambitious may be necessary. Perhaps he (and nearby enemies) periodically become enraged. Also, the safety zone(s) could be nerfed in this (and all) fights. Enemy spawns are pretty good as punishment.

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      • Edited by garionlrpg: 8/30/2015 6:35:06 AM
        But the sponges aren't going to soak up the bullets themselves. Also, the adds are the only reason destiny is challenging. Also also, I'll be much less likely to camp or cheese if I could get a simple strafe roll or some decent agility based dodging. Sometimes I feel like a double jumping refrigerator. To be more on topic, I've always hated the"rules don't apply to enemies" motto as well. I get that the enemies are mostly developmentally disabled and need the infinite ammo and quick dodging at the last minute as if they were governed by a computer and can sense, space magically, when we're about to knock their 1's and 0's into oblivion, but there are probably better ways to dm the enemy. Perhaps a study in tactics is in order. Perhaps we can get rid of the running cool down or provide some sort of visual indication of when that cool down space magically occurs. I guess my point is that I'd like to see less ads, more agile bosses, AND more agile guardians. This refrigerator has its limits. Oh, and the one hit aoe melee attacks? Really?

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        • I'm definitely looking forward to the new strikes, and I'm hoping that the reworked ones aren't just simple enemy replacements. PoE I think failed because as a horde mode, the maps were just too small and it wasn't about killing enemies really. I think back on firefight and still really want to play it. I think on poe and just get annoyed. One thing I'm also hoping is that nightfalls introduce some new mechanics to whatever boss fight we have. The current method of adding burns and shields is ok now, but not really worthy of the new strikes.

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          • This is another example of 1) why the vault fights are so brilliant... it's about -blam!-ing up the templar and atheon when it comes down to it... you're not OVERWHELMED by adds unless you can't take them down fast enough. And when there are adds, they are accounted for by a unique version of one not just TONS of the same old same old. Thinking of summoned minotaurs and exploding harpies. 2) bungie not listening to us... we're telling them how one-note all of the boss battles really are and nothing is changing. it's going more and more towards higher add counts and faster add respawns than anything. The complete opposite of what we think is fun! 3) Taniks strike the best. see my reply to cozmo below.

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          • I've always hated Bosses with ads design in video games. It feels like the person I'm fighting is a coward and takes away from the lore of beating a boss in video games. Just my opinion. I think I've always dreamed of, is facing a boss in Destiny that isn't three stories tall with ads around him. Everyone is tired of the boss level design, I'm tired of the boss design. Every boss besides the Psion Flares are a lot bigger than us and has friends. You know what would be cool? If we could face a dark Guardian who now serves the darkness. No ads. No fireteam, one on one. Or, three Guardians of the darkness against a fireteam. Or even put them in patrol. I don't care, I'm just sick of facing enlarged versions of ads we fight daily. Some variation in the bosses would be welcomed and I'm not talking adding a jetpack to a Centurion and calling it different. I'm talking making a whole new looking Cabal, Hive, Vex or fallen for a boss.

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            • Thanks for sharing your ideas on how to keep improving strikes. I found Shield Brothers to be a huge evolution in how strikes bosses are fought. It's a really fun strike. All of the new strikes have their own added mechanics to change things up. Can't wait until you get to play them!

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              • The boss fights are technically just horde mode with a bigger enemy you have to kill to end the waves... Atheon to me still is and probably always will be the most interesting boss fight in the game, because it's the only thing that seems to break the mold and promote actual thought. It's a fight based on coordination and communication, it's only difficult if you're not in sync which I think is great.

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              • Necrobump

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                • Edited by MightyJonE: 9/26/2015 1:36:46 PM
                  Going back to Halo 2, which was the first time that particular series had bosses, revealed Bungie simply weren't good at boss battles - though this is true of western games in general compared to Japanese The only great exception is the Metroid Prime series, made by U.S. studio Retro in conjunction with Nintendo. Those are the kind of one/three/six-on-one boss battles that Destiny sorely lacks I agree that throwing continually spawning adds at the player is a tired, cheap solution to a design problem

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                • After having played the shield bros and their endless shielded psions... Yeah, definitely artificial difficulty.

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                • While i would like to see better boss battles the A.I needs to be nerfed so it's a level playing field, tired of the infinite ammo, no reloading and sponging of bullets.

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                • Bump of astonishment. Somehow this is the first time I've seen this post. Nice idea

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                • Great ideas for changes to the strikes. Would very much enjoy those changes. Keeping the matter of strikes going, what are your thoughts of 6man strikes? Where all 6 players are together for the final boss and a few other encounters, and other times you are split into two teams of 3 and go down different paths where you have to complete objectives that benefit the other group. Or it could be that one team takes high ground and provides sniper cover for the other 3 fighting below. For me it feels like having 6 man strikes would prepare players for raids a bit better then just including story missions that re-use raid mechanics. Just like how we can switch difficulty, we could switch between 3 man or 6 man versions of the strike.

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                  • OVERLY SEXAUL BUMP!!!!!!!

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                    • Bumpity

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                    • Bump

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                      • bump

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                        • Bump

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                        • Bump. This is really solid. I'd probably get less tired of the Strikes if the boss fights were interesting. I used to run the map on the Archon Priest, until I got tired of being murdered by the perpetual adds, snipers amongst the most frustrating on higher difficulties. Oddly enough, that's the Strike I like the least with my Defender, because there's only one spot to put my Ward without everyone getting murdered the moment it comes down. At least with Omnigul I've got a couple of options. Another Titan and I punched her to death once, lol.

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                          • bump

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                          • Bump...but the strikes will never be fixed...and here's why. The overall design is just bad. Our Guns are too weak, and the Enemy's shields are WAY too strong. It's frustrating that they can recharge to 100% faster then I can reload my Gun! IMHO the Shields shouldn't surpass the Enemies Health... It's just trash design. The overall level design is terrible to. In POE, you have the tiny one little spot you can hide for cover. Otherwise the PVE's super accurate sniper aim will hit you across the map. (If you haven't realized it, your player is lagging, while the AI is not) .This doesn't allow for other strategy or styles to be had. It's a camp fest, because that's all you can do. now they want to take our little hiding spots away? GET BENT BUNGIE!

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                            • Edited by ImTooHungover: 8/31/2015 6:10:00 PM
                              lol just realized I put this on the wrong post. My bad. --[b]INGAME LFG!!!!![/b] This game is meant to be "Social." So why is the social aspect so restrictive? Add an ingame lfg or even chat forums at the very least so the community is connected in some way in the game. --more vehicle gameplay. --more dynamic interactions between enemies, npcs, and guardians on Patrols. Make it feel more full of life. Allow enemies to change spawn or have a different enemy invade a location and attempt to take it over--[b]such as Cabal invading Fallen on Mothyards. This can be further expanded with vehicles for enemies.[/b] THIS COULD BE EPIC! --Give enemies a weapons kit and abilities kit to choose from when they spawn to add variety in gameplay. Also, expand on their move sets and interactions. Thrall leaping over objects and climbing walls? Shanks that can actually fly? --Expand on the grind with bosses: Give them more abilities/move sets to play off of so each instance maybe different than the last. ------------->Here is a post on this: https://www.bungie.net/sr/Forum/Post/120850955/0/0 --implement Community Gear Ideas into the game and give credit to the designer. Could have bi-weekly competitions for this. --Improve on use of D-Pad. Put in Radial menus that can be mapped out by the player. Hold up button and it opens up many options. ------------------>Example of Radial menus: http://www.mobygames.com/images/shots/l/405420-mass-effect-xbox-360-screenshot-switching- weapons-and-powers.jpg --To further expand on the D-Pad, switch the UP button as a form for communication. Example: Hold UP, click on "Waypoint." An arrow will pop up on your fireteam's screen. Can go further and do a simple animation such as the guardian pointing forward. -------------->Other Communication ideas: "Help!". "Fall back!" "Focus Boss" "Get in vehicle"....if we had more vehicles lol. --Also expanding on the D-Pad, implement preset builds with subclasses and gear to allow for quick changes on the run.

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                            • The saying goes, "One man's garbage, is another man's treasure." In this instance one man's perfect strike is another man's waste of time. I agree with both Sols and Shadow that AP is one of the better strikes, basically because the dude stalks you from point A to point B. I also agree with Sols that the boss should be constrained by the same mechanics we are. If my gally is limited to 5-7 rounds due to whatever gear I'm wearing, then Valus shouldn't have unlimited rockets or rounds for his mini-gun. Now where does my original quote play into this whole scenario? Well, I think we as players like to have options. If I chose to run past the ads so be it. If you place artifical constraints on that choice, what we end up with is people searching for spots to camp and blast away from long distance. If Bungie followed Shadow's advice for the Valus strike's first room, most people would either hangout at the entrance or they'd attempt to jump up on the platform which is the entrance to the spire strike mission. The result would be long drawn out affairs. As far his suggestion that the tank be mobile, well that sound good on paper and would allow players to use their whole arsenal of weapons rather than their long range snipers or scouts. I've read some comments about the new strikes and my take on them is that they scream G-I-M-M-I-C-K-S. An orge that can only be damaged by proximity damage from exploding thralls. Three bosses that have to be killed in a special sequence. I'm sorry, but this just isn't sound game design.

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