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Editado por Macharius:
6/28/2014 3:27:46 AM
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40ks biggest assets will be Dark Age Humanity, Pre Fall Eldar, War in Heaven Necrons, Old Ones, and Chaos. Each of these individually could defeat modern 40k, and they each pack some serious weapons. The biggest threat to them will be the Precursors, but we have little information on them, and their offensive capabilities, so I'll just stick to Forerunners and their ilk.
Necrons at their height could match Forerunners at their height around 1:1 when it comes to planets, and they also have the backing of the C'Tan, which are effortless reality warpers. The C'Tan would make mincemeat of any Forerunners they encounter, because they are basically real space gods. The Necrons also have antimatter guns, shards of neutron stars they launch at nearly super luminal speeds, dimensional phasing, matter to energy conversion and more.
Dark Age Humanity had continent sized warships with guns that could create black holes, advance entropy, real space FTL, and more.
Pre-Fall Eldar likewise had a huge empire, and were capable of moving stars around like toys. They can also predict the future, trap black holes in a box, revive the dead to fight in their war machines, and their psychic powers basically bypass all Forerunner tech (Nice armor you have there, too bad you brain just exploded, and your blood boiled.). They also have the Webway which allows them to rapidly relocate, hide, and attack from.
Old Ones are a wild card, but they created and uplifted many species to use as weapons of war and had complete mastery of the Warp.
Chaos is a huge threat to Halo. Halo has absolutely no experience with something like Chaos, and this would leave them wide open to corruption. Not to mention the war would fuel the Gods to even greater heights. The Flood is a massive tribute to Nurgle. Halo also has no weapons to effectively combat Chaos. They have no knowledge if the Warp, and the idea of a place where time can be a solid, nonexistent, or flowing backwards would be difficult to comprehend. They are a science based race, now they find themselves up against magic.
As for the Flood, 40k has synthetic units to attack them. A massive army of Necrons, Men of Iron, Wraithguard, Daemons, and C'Tan would give the Flood a hard time, because they have no biomass to infect. It would be a war if attrition. And with the Daemons, C'Tan, Men of Iron, and the new Wraithguard (thanks to the Forerunners fighting flesh and blood Eldar), it would be an uphill battle. If worst comes to worst, the Necrons could use the Celestial Orrey and enact a Scorched Earth policy, aided by the Eldar's seering and their own predictions. Time travel would help plug any leaks in the 40k lines.
English
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Don't forget that the Flood has the logic plague on it's side. Computers and artificial intelligences can be completely consumed and tricked into working for the Flood. Some of those synthetic units might have a bad time. And there is another factor. If the Flood make landfall in an ocean, a world is done for. Ocean life would be converted within hours, and the Flood would probably have enough mass to start altering a planet's atmosphere. When they reach critical levels of infestation, they alter the atmosphere and fill it with their spores, infecting anything that breathes. All they'd need to do is use a stealth based craft to land in an out of the way pocket of ocean and that would be it. And we can't forget one last thing either. The Flood are born from the Precursors, and as such by extension will never be stopped unless the Precursors themselves are stopped, because they have one desire, and that is the unity and liberation of all life from the throes of it's chaotic existence. I think we actually come to a tie on this. The Precursors take the physical universe by way of attrition, and simply wait out the death of the 40k verse. They can't go into the warp, and the chaos gods can't come out. It's a complete gridlock stalemate.
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Editado por Macharius: 6/28/2014 4:31:34 PMFor the logic plague, the only things that would be effected are the Men of Iron. War in Heaven Necrons have Szarekh's command protocols stored in them, and couldn't disobey even if they wanted too. Daemons are daemons, no machinery there. Same with C'Tan. Wraithguard are controlled by spirits of deceased Eldar, not AI, so the Logic Plague wouldn't work on them. Not to mention the amount if Warp magic flowing through them. For the Men of Iron, it may be possible for the Dragon of Mars to take complete control of them, and shut out the logic plague. Hacking and control over machinery has been one of his schticks for a long time. As for Flood, the Eldar Farseers could predict when and where they land. Events like a Craftworld being attacked, or the death of a planet, for examples, are big events that would stand out in their divination. If the Flood do make planet fall, the Necrons can cause the star to become active and burn the surface of the planet with flares, wiping out the Flood there without losing any subsurface resources. The Necrons could also travel back in time to change the past, and use their own divination to fight back against the Flood. As for Precursirs, they are the big unquantifiable. They have amazing constructs, but we know little about them. How would they react to a war? Would they react like they did with the Forerunners? Or would they fight back? If they fought back, could they be harmed by anything 40k has? How would a vortex weapon effect their neural architecture? Would a Warp Rift hurt them? How about the Necron's weapons that harnessed the power of the living universe? What if Nurgle just spawned a few hundred super plagues on the inside? Permakilling immortals is a thing in 40k: Ollanius was an immortal who resurrected upon death, and he is gone. Vulkan was almost perms killed by Grammaticus, until a last minute change if heart. Could the Fulgurite, which permanently kills immortals, harm the Precursors? What about Daemons? Ollanius suggests that if a Perpetual is killed by or near a Daemon, they won't resurrect because the Daemon steals their immortal soul. We know plenty about the Forerunners, but far, [i]far [/i]less about the Precursors. That is why I think they shouldn't be included in most Vs. debates. Interestingly, one minor Chaos god can exist in real space for brief periods of time: Malice/Malal. By the way, the Precursors' star roads move at .3c and outrun Forerunner ships, right? Because .7c is considered standard combat speed for Imperial ships.
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Editado por ROBERTO jh: 6/28/2014 4:54:42 PMThe logic plague has demonstrated that can affect non-AI as well; it is for that reason that the Didact is so ax crazy. The Forerunners also could view events in multiple timelines to determine the best probable outcome and course of action, a kind of non-magic divination that allowed Prometheans a sort of small scale omniscience over the battlefield in commanding their warriors (they could, iirc, link their minds with those under their command as an example, while at the same time witnessing things in multiple dimensions and timelines). Still didn't stop the Flood, nor did regular use of weaponized supernova. As for Precursors, by OP fiat the Haloverse has everything at its disposal, which includes the Precursors. They would fight and even if certain esoteric elements of the WH40K universe can harm them (as you mentioned) the scale that they operate at is just completely beyond them. They travel the multiverse, are older than time and move galaxies. OP also said in another post that the Precursors do have a warp presence, this would result in a new Warp god that could, by virtue of the Precursors shear mental/psychic might and willpower, overcome the other 4 gods. Precursors are explicitly psychic, they should be able to combat the Warp, or at least pacify it by pacifying the materium. Also, Precursors are not immortal in the same way that the perpetuals of 40K are. perpetuals have a stupidly ridiculous healing factor that prevents them from dying. Precursors can die physically but their consciousness survives only to inevitably be reborn in the physical world as they so choose, and as powerful as they so choose. Death is meaningless to them. Much like Deamons of the Warp to be honest, destroying their physical bodies is only temporary. Edit: also, the solar flare strategy wouldn't work for long. The Precursors could simply defend the planets with a star road cluster.
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[quote]The logic plague has demonstrated that can affect non-AI as well; it is for that reason that the Didact is so ax crazy.[/quote] Fair enough. [quote] The Forerunners also could view events in multiple timelines to determine the best probable outcome and course of action, a kind of non-magic divination that allowed Prometheans a sort of small scale omniscience over the battlefield in commanding their warriors (they could, iirc, link their minds with those under their command as an example, while at the same time witnessing things in multiple dimensions and timelines). Still didn't stop the Flood, nor did regular use of weaponized supernova.[/quote] Different kinds of prescience, and on a smaller scale than Eldar and Necron actions. Forerunners also lack the time traveling abilities of the Necrons. There may have been mentions of Eldar time traveling, but can't remember. [quote]As for Precursors, by OP fiat the Haloverse has everything at its disposal, which includes the Precursors. They would fight and even if certain esoteric elements of the WH40K universe can harm them (as you mentioned) the scale that they operate at is just completely beyond them. They travel the multiverse, are older than time and move galaxies. OP also said in another post that the Precursors do have a warp presence, this would result in a new Warp god that could, by virtue of the Precursors shear mental/psychic might and willpower, overcome the other 4 gods. Precursors are explicitly psychic, they should be able to combat the Warp, or at least pacify it by pacifying the materium. [/quote] Multiverse traveling is not unknown in 40k either. Necrons hide soldiers and planets in other dimensions, and their Tesseract Labyrinths are perfect examples of pocket dimension prisons. The Warp is also said to connect to more realities than 40k, and because of how time works there, a Chaos God exists retroactively. There are references to other galaxies in 40k too. The Tyranids have eaten anywhere between 12-1000 galaxies, the Orks seem to have gone intergalactic, and the Dragon of Mars was worshipped as a god in thousands if galaxies. The C'Tan are not limited to the Milky Way either. They were formed all over the universe. Just having a Warp presence does not allow you to create a God. You can't just *think* it and it happens. If that was the case, every Alpha psyker could become a minor Warp god. Besides the big 4, there are many smaller deities that exist. The Precursors actions would feed the big 4, more than anyone. Their plans and scheming and intelligence powers Tzeentch. This war and the Flood's desire to destroy all would fuel Khorne like no other. The Flood's very existence would be Nurgle's power source. Not to mention the death, despair, and stubbornness of the other life forms. The Precursors don't have much that would empower Slaanesh, but the Forerunner's society would have outlets. [quote] Also, Precursors are not immortal in the same way that the perpetuals of 40K are. perpetuals have a stupidly ridiculous healing factor that prevents them from dying. Precursors can die physically but their consciousness survives only to inevitably be reborn in the physical world as they so choose, and as powerful as they so choose. Death is meaningless to them. Much like Deamons of the Warp to be honest, destroying their physical bodies is only temporary.[/quote] Perpetuals [i]do[/i] die, it is the healing factor that brings them back to life. Vulkan died when he fell from orbit. Grammaticus died when he threw himself out an airlock, and then died again when he stabbed Vulkan with the Fulgurite. Each time they came back to life, but they were [i]dead.[/i] [quote] Edit: also, the solar flare strategy wouldn't work for long. The Precursors could simply defend the planets with a star road cluster.[/quote] And Necrons or Eldar could open a Webway gate or portal on the inside, send in a few ships on the inside and bomb the planet. Or the could drop an atmospheric incinerator in, curtesy of the Imperium. More than one way to kill a world.
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There still are other factors however. The 40k verse for the most part is centered around events in the Milky Way correct? Who's to say that the Precursors couldn't start in another galaxy, consume everything in it, and then surround the Milky Way in an ocean of Flood? The Precursors aren't bound by galactic clusters, and in fact, that's my theory about the current events for the upcoming Halo's. The Milky Way is standing alone in an ocean of fallen galaxies completely consumed by the Flood, all headed towards it. When it shows up on everybody's doorstep, things are going to get ugly.
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nah Master Chief solos
