I personally actually think it's more a problem of unforgiving primaries combined with free movement, on top of OHKs being slightly too abundant to earn. PC players and anyone not using Traction can get triple what they use to kill someone while self-sustaining tools that circumvent gunfights completely when used correctly. But going on D1, I didn't ever have trouble dispatching people bum-rushing me with that New Monarchy HC. Why? Because it only needed a single headshot to hit it's ~0.87 TTK. The bigger issue in general is less to do with optimal TTKs, and more to do with how unforgiving the headshot ratios are, and how much missing heads punishes you on almost every weapon class. Mobility being too free in general also has a lot to do with this, namely Icarus, but other abilities like that should be reworked too. I think shotguns are perfect where they're at now, and hell, where they were pre-patch since there isn't a large change there (albeit Opening Shot as a concept shouldn't be on OHK weapons). But back to the whole movement to TTK argument. New scho Halo's issues aren't the movement to TTK, since the super crazy movement abilities are balanced out by meter or, say restricting health Regen. So if your Icarus, your Cryoclasm, Shatterdive, whatever else has some sort of penalty to Regen, or costed health to use, I honestly think they'd be in check by being higher risk. Firing Range touched on this, mobility options in general are too free, Special shouldn't self-sustain, and they didn't touch on this, but the primaries are more too unforgiving in their bodyshots, rather than killing too slow optimally.

Your solution to secondary spam is make primary more powerful? That's a terrible take....

"The solution to a problem cannot be found in the same state of mind that was in force when the problem was created." (Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, and expecting a different result). 1. This game didn't have a "secondary spam" problem until the primary weapon TTK was nerfed to >0.8 seconds back in the early part of Y2 of D1. Prior to that, the game had primary metas. Primary metas where large parts of the community (and the sandbox team at the time) insisted that weapons killed "too fast". 2. Other shooters that have a faster TTK (and faster moving players) don't have to limit OHK weapon ammo. The flow of combat naturally puts someone using those weapons at a severe disadvantage if they get caught out of position with it. So shotguns, snipers, etc....stay situational weapons.[i] [b] Destiny has a special weapon spam problem because primaries don't kill fast enough to CREATE that natural disadvantage. So people just SPAM them until they run out of ammo...BECAUSE THERE ISN'T ANY GAMEPLAY REASON **NOT** TO DO THAT[/b][/i]. 3. This game has had over 30 nerfs to shotgun ammo, range, accuracy, damage, precision damage (essentially every aspect of shotgun function) over the life of the franchise. [b]Yet the problem of the seeming oppressiveness of shotguns NEVER GETS FIXED[/b]. So no. Dealing with the REAL cause of the problem----underpowered primaries relative to the speed of play----isn't a bad take. The bad take is the belief that ANOTHER round of shotgun nerfs is going somehow fix the problem when it NEVER has. The bad take is thinking that slowing the game down is going to have a different outcome from the LAST time (vanilla D2) Bungie tried it as a means of reining in the imbalance between special weapons and primary weapons. What I want to do is not a "bad take" because I was playing this game and saw what created the problem....and have been here for every misguided effort to FIX the problem without actually addressing what caused it in the first place. [b]NERFING primaries. [/b]

This game always had a secondary spam the moment they put shotgun and sniper in the secondary slot

No it hasn’t. Factually incorrect. Destiny TWO has had that problem because the primary TTK has always been about 0.85 seconds….or slower. And Bungie tried to manage the problem by limiting access to ammo instead of addressing the underpowered primaries.

Making primaries kill way faster will do the opposite and make secondary useless ....and every mode will feel like momentum control ....which will be a terrible move ...especially for comp/trial

No it won’t. All the game needs is to make primaries kill about 20% faster than they do right now. We have played under that kind of meta for over a year, and it didn’t make special weapons useless. [i]It made them BALANCED.[/i] Snipers were pushed into their proper role as ling range ambush and area-denial weapons. Shotguns were pushed into their proper role as situational, short-range ambush weapons. They only got out of this role as Bungie pike nerf after nerf on primaries trying to “slow the game down” and “reduce the chaos”. When all it did was throw the game out of balance. A balance the game has never gotten back. Despite dozens of nerfs of all sorts to special weapons.

I’d go a step further and minimize all the penalties to accuracy you have when you shoot and move. I shouldn’t have to make a whole character build with targeting mods etc. just to make my guns work in an effing FPS. Being able to be airborne and and fire accurately with everything (not just hand cannons) will reign shotguns back in too.

Agreed. I don’t understand why Bungie gives us all these movement abilities, and then wants us fighting with boots on the ground in pvp… and hiding behind cover and cowering in Wells in pve. I don’t get it…,

I remember an interview with a PvP dev about this very topic and he said something along the lines of, we tested it (referring to 100 percent in air accuracy) and trust us, you don’t want that. I really want to know how and what they tested to come to that conclusion.

[quote]No. Bungie just refuses to let primary weapons kill fast enough to allow them to properly balance special weapons. As a result, someone with a shotgun can dominate practically out to mid-range. Because primaries kill so slowly that I can simply jsut RUN at you with that shotgun and kill you if you try to stand your ground and fight.... ....and if I can't close, then there's plenty of time to run away to cover. So there is practically NO disadvantages to running around and spamming a shotgun until you run out of ammo for it. Because the guy with a primary isn't a threat you have to respect unless he's teamshooting.[/quote] 1. Most primaries are actually in a good position to compete, with the exception of 450 pulses and scouts (excl. Jade, mida etc) 2. A perfectly rolled shotty will kill someone at 8m 50% of the time while they're standing still, so more practically the one shot is around 6-7m max on moving targets. Unless you've got a chappy with roadborn active that statement is laughable. Even the worst ttk primaries (120 hc) have 1.00s ttk, more than enough time to kill anyone at 15m or further. Smg, sidearm ttks can be around 0.7s. If you died to someone running at you from midrange then its your bad positioning that cost you. Also don't stand your ground, backpedal... Likewise if you're standing in a small room and see red close on radar you should expect someone with a shotty, so either reposition or prepare a counterplay No good player will rush you from 20m with a shotty unless they know you're a potato or you've been weakened by other sources. Tldr: if you die a lot to shotties aping from range, work on your positioning and radar awareness

https://youtu.be/dPXbK0Mvmk4 This is D1 footage, but is shows the foundational problem that you are trying to talk your way around This is a PVP content creator trying to give people tips on how to deal with one of the most obnoxious and overpowered PVP builds ever to hit the franchise. Juggernaut-shottie Titans. If you aren't a D1 vet, Juggernaut was Arc Titan class ability where you would get an forward facing OVERSHIELD after sprinting for a short period of time. IOW its basically OEM, without the need for a kill to activate the shield. YES, that's Bannerfall they're on in a private match setting. Showing you how much ground a Titan can cover (and were actually FASTER now) in the 1 second or so it takes to strip that Titan of the overshield and kill them. I want you to notce as True Vanguard is standing his ground trying to fight this monstrosity off, that the Titan is basically able to cover HALF the widith of the Bannerfalll map, while making NO effort whatsoever to dodge the fire. The Titan is just TANKING it all the way in. THAT IS THE ORIGIN OF THE SHOTGUN APE. That is what a slow TTK paired with FAST MOVING PLAYERS allows into the game. As you can see in the video (because of the overshield), He's struggling to even be able to stand his ground with the game's OHK weapons. Its a laughable impossibility trying to do it with primary weapons. TLDR. The game's TTK is so slow and players move so fast that you cannot stand your ground and fight off a shotgun rush by anyone who actually has THUMBS. You either have to resort to a special weapon of your own.....or you have to have space to BACK PEDAL while youfire so that you can SLOW the rate of closure. If you don't have that space, you are dead. Destiny is the only shooter I have EVER played that forces people to play is this (frankly) stupid way. ...and until that inability to stand your ground and fight without having to either backpedal or team shoot is fixed, Bungie will NEVER be able to balance the game. Because its simply to easy to play shotgun ape.....or to run away to cover if you can't close with that shotgun. So there is NEVER enough of a disadvantage to using one, that anyone interested in winning would ever stop usinging it....until they run out of ammo. "Making adjustments to the ammo economy" is Bungie speak for "WE CAN'T BALANCE THE SANDBOX" . So the only way we can reduce the use of shotguns is to try to limit their ammo. IOW. PUNT.

Right so you wrote all of that and your evidence is D1 titan skating? Which isn't in D2, so that info is not relevant. Movement is different, abilities, ttk, weapon range, the entire sandbox is different. Ouch. Since you didn't address any of the points I bought up and instead just repeated yourself... i will unfortunately have to bring up your opinion is coming from someone who isn't even in the 50% percentile this season which means your knowledge of pvp is lacking to making any sort of constructive argument. Shotguns punish players with poor radar awareness and map positioning, improve those, and you'll die less. Failing that, use a 3 burst sidearm or last word, both are primaries designed to kill shotgun users. If you don't wish to improve or prepare counterplay, then its your own fault

My “evidence” is the lived experience of when this game actually had a balanced sandbox between primary weapons and special weapons, Destiny 1 shipped with a primary weapon TTK of 0.6 secs. That TTK allowed people to flank, and put down our-of-position players before they could run away to safety, or team mates could intervene. That TTK allowed players to stand their ground and fight off shotgun rushes with a primary weapon without having to backpedal or team shoot. That TTK made shotguns less oppressive because it out a premium on the use of cover, and closing to short range before starting a rush. If you didn’t, you wound up dead on the ground. [b]So the game had primary metas for the first 18 months of the franchise.[/b] But in interviews as late as winter of 2015, then Sandbox Lead Jon Weisznewski was giving interviews where he was still insisting that the current meta weapons (MIDA and Nerwin’s Mercy) were “too hot” (killed to fast). That in his opinion the Crucible was at its “best” with slower, more team-based play. Which is why his vision of how the game should play eventually gave us dual-primaries, power weapons, team shot meta play…and nearly destroyed the franchise because we hated it so much. [i]But before that his constant nerfing of primary weapons eventually gave us a pvp TTK of 0.85 secs.[/i] …and the game has had an unsolvable “special weapons problem” ever since. Because at that TTK, you cannot stop someone charging at you from within AR/HC range (about 35 meters) with a single primary weapon. The moment you try to stand your ground and fight….youre dead. Because at that TTK, even if you can’t close the gap, there is plenty of time to escape to cover. So anyone with a primary weapon is not a threat that someone with a shotgun has to respect, and there is no gameplay reason to NOT use it except not having ammo for it. [b]Enter the shotgun ape who runs at you from 30-40 meters away, because he knows he can simply face-tank your fire the second you try to stand and fight.[/b] Shit. I had an arc Titan once run me down from one end of the map to the other and kill me, because he could traverse the map faster that I could kill him in his super with a SR. The only way Bungie escaped the same problems with snipers and fusion rifles is by BREAKING them. It’s why you get flinched everywhere if you get shot with a sniper in your hands…and it’s why fusion spend so much of their time being broken and unusable that “Nerf fusion rifles” became such a powerful community meme that the devs begged us to stop using it.

You're quoting a single ttk for all weapons? Also again quoting D1 which is literally a different game. Smgs / lw / sidearm which I keep bringing up and you keep ignoring have 0.67s. You think someone from 35m can close 35m in that time? Even the value you've pulled out of thin air, 0.85s is more than enough time to kill someone 3 times over at that distance. To demonstrate how stupid this sounds let use some basic maths v=s/t Assuming person (primary) is standing still, and the shotgun will 1 shot at 8m, which is generous, you're saying that a character in D2 can travel 90mph

Just stop. Bungie tunes the game to a very consistent sandbox. Weapons that define the meta typical have a TTK of 0.8-85 secs and have an optimal range of short- midrange to mid-range (ARs, PRs and HCs) Short range weapons like Sidearms and SMGs will be tuned to about 0.5 to 0.6 secs. But the faster TTK isn’t protective against shotguns being out of balance because of the limited range of these weapons. So combat has the same issues. Whereas long range primaries like scouts are tuned in the 0.85 to 1.0 sec range, but are further handicapped by doing very poor body short damage. With some SRs ballooning to TTKs of nearly 2 seconds if all you are landing is body shots. Which is why even PvE players are complaining that SRs are in a terrible place and are borderline unusable. So my point was to discuss the weapons that define the meta each season, and the range envelope where shotguns are a problem and feel oppressive, The only reason snipers and fusion rifles are not in the same boat is because Bungie effective BROKE them.

"Just stop" - what providing actual evidence rather than baseless opinions? Also if your tag is "kellygreen2" you haven't even played D1, fat lot of experience that is Sidearms are effective up to 20ish m. Smgs about 25m, more than enough distance. Sidearm is already 0.5s on headshots Here you go, have fun staring at all the primaries with good ttk, forsaken sandbox but smg and sidearms haven't changed. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/u/0/d/1U88nyQq-nWLl3GSrgK-qn0wbrhu-d1fIhWkRk-6xjeE/htmlview#

Just stop, trying to SHUTDOWN a coversation that you don't want to have, and that you don't have any REASONABLE counterargument to. So, instead of deatilng with what I'm saying, you just attack me instead. 1. I'm familiar with that chart...which hasn't been updated in years. 2. It gives TTK with DAMAGE PERKS active....not the base performance of weapons. 3. It fails to take into account that most of those damage perks have since been nerfed. 4. It also fails to take into account the impact of movement abilitiers like Cryoclasm ...and if you're going to CYBERSTALK someone's record? Do it RIGHT and don't embarrass yourself. I never said that my gamertag here is the gamertag and account that I actually play under https://destinytracker.com/destiny-2/profile/psn/4611686018428811698/overview Note that I'm in the Top 5% worldwide in the number of Crucible kills. Because I've been playing this game's pvp now for the better part of SEVEN YEARS....and have played in every meta that this game has ever had. So, I was asking you to just stop making a fool out of yourself.

I have bought up correct ttk values of strong primaries but you seem to ignore them over and over. Numbers don't lie As I stated, sidearm and smg are the same damage models as they were back then. Most primaries have better ttk than forsaken It shows both. 750 Smg 0.67s no dmg perks, 491 sidearm 0.5s no damage perks... I'm honestly in disbelieve, how can you misinterpret a simple excel chart You didn't talk about abilities, you referred to shotguns and the strength of specials. Also that slide that got nerfed but you don't really play pvp so I can understand why you wouldn't know that. Actually all I did was take you had said and confirm your statements. You said you had a lot of experience in D1, stats say you didn't even play. You say someone can ape a primary from 35m, ttk and logic suggests otherwise. My point about you not understanding pvp is valid - bottom 30% seasonal for the only thing you've played in this sandbox, IB. Kd less than 1.00 so you're below average over career D2. I'm not going to bother linking mine if were going on "experience" because the discepency is too large

Did you read the charts you posted? Those are numbers with active damage perks, and most of them are [i]still[/i] North of 0.8 secs. Also the measure is the ability to stand your ground and fight off someone out of position with a special weapon. So many of you have been so conditioned to backpedaling and other manuevers to buy the time and space your underpowered weapon needs to kill… … that you’ve forgotten that no other shooter forces you to play (in) this (stupid) way.