You can't kill them because they made themselves into rules within the game. Those rules are light and dark and the sword/bomb logic. Ruthless dominance or cooperation to preserve complex patterns.

<The Cabal literally killed the Traveler in one timeline and the Light continued to exist.>

You compared the Traveler to the Winnower so I thought you meant Gardener and Winnower. The Gardener and Winnower were pre-universal sentient presences that made themselves into rules within existence. The Traveler and Witness can be killed but not the Gardener and Winnower as its physically impossible. They're fundamental forces now.

<The Gardener and the Traveler are the same thing. We have two lore books narrated by two different entities saying so and buildup dating all the way back to D1 hinting at it. Plus, the Winnower at T=0 states that they're players now.>

Think what the definition of a rule is. The Witness was once mortal. It is not the Winnower. The Traveler can be killed. I dare say rules cannot be killed. Light and Darkness are fundamental parts of the Destiny universe. The Winnower and Gardener were absolute before existence. Why would such powers limit themselves in such ways? Light and Dark are rules to the universe. This why we are moving past the light and dark saga. The root of each side will NEVER be a direct enemy. It was revelealed that the Witness is not the Darkness but a child of the darkness. I believe the same must hold true for the Traveler. You'll see when Final Shape rolls around.

<Please, just... read the implications at the end of [url=https://www.ishtar-collective.net/entries/t-0#book-unveiling]this[/url]. And read [url=https://www.ishtar-collective.net/cards/ghost-fragment-mysteries?highlight=gardener]all[/url] [url=https://www.ishtar-collective.net/transcripts/pilgrimage-garden-of-esila-dead-tree?highlight=gardener]of[/url] [url=https://www.ishtar-collective.net/entries/ixi-the-unmaking?highlight=gardener]these[/url] [url=https://www.ishtar-collective.net/entries/the-wager#book-unveiling]entries[/url]. The Gardener and Winnower are no longer rules. The Winnower directly states that they exist as players now, separate from the rules they were. There's also the idea that, maybe the creation of the material plane wasn't intended. Not to mention that both the Hive and Winnower refer to the Traveler as the Gardener, making references to what it is ("the orb" and "that wandering refugee"). Rasputin called the damn thing the Gardener ages ago and that's not even related. The hints have been there since D1 dude. The Witness is a prophet. The Traveler is not.>

I thought the same but the Traveler is shockingly dumb and easy to manipulate. I guess we'll just have to see. I strongly believe it's just a light creature like the Leviathan. We once thought the Pyramids were paracausal world ending beings and look what they turned out to be. Flying space museums.

<1 - It's naive. This has been a thing since... well since we knew what its motives were and what it hopes for. The Dreams of Alpha Lupi paint it as a hopeful being and that's only further increased with what the Winnower says about it in Unveiling and what it tells Clovis in his dreams. It hopes for the best in everyone but most of the time they don't go for that. 2 - The Pyramids are still paracausal beings. They're just also ships. Just 5 days before Witch Queen I had this argument where someone said they weren't ships and were paracausal beings. There is no exclusivity. They are still alive, the Worm even implies it, they're just also ships... like they always were. Nothing has changed with the exception of us seeing more of what's inside as well as seeing who keeps speaking through them.>

[quote]<1 - It's naive. This has been a thing since... well since we knew what its motives were and what it hopes for. The Dreams of Alpha Lupi paint it as a hopeful being and that's only further increased with what the Winnower says about it in Unveiling and what it tells Clovis in his dreams. It hopes for the best in everyone but most of the time they don't go for that. 2 - The Pyramids are still paracausal beings. They're just also ships. Just 5 days before Witch Queen I had this argument where someone said they weren't ships and were paracausal beings. There is no exclusivity. They are still alive, the Worm even implies it, they're just also ships... like they always were. Nothing has changed with the exception of us seeing more of what's inside as well as seeing who keeps speaking through them.>[/quote] 1. Yes but I still don't think it's the Gardener itself. Maybe an incarnation or child born from its ideologies. We are in an era where everything we thought we knew about the Traveler and darkness is changing. I could be wrong but I remain skeptical. I said the Witness was not the Winnower and everyone thought I was crazy but here we are. 2. I'm just not sure anymore. Ghost called them Paracasual beings but pay attention to the shift in the way they are addressed in dialogue. "Something must control these ships but I've never seen a pilot" I'm fairly certain the Witnesses multiple consciousness blooms are the things controlling certain Pyramids. Rhulks Pyramid was completely unresponsive and did not speak to us. But the Arrivals Pyramids were empty and spoke the same way the Witness does. I'm certain that it imparts a piece of itself to control each one. Rhulks Pyramid did not seem like a being at all.