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Edited by Dubufu:
12/3/2018 4:25:25 AM
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I...never said they were [i]low skill[/i] you idiot. I said they don't take a lot of skill to use, unless you just have bad luck with them. Smg's are extremely close range with the risk of facing off against 1 shot weapons that compete at the [b]same range[/b]. That means shotguns and fusions. Hell, even hand cannons can compete with Smg's. Smg's really are not low skill at the moment just because they are fully automatic.
Also, it's really not that hard to land those headshots, as stated before with target acquisition perks and aim assist, and the handcannons listed have perks that activate the make the a TTK even shorter. Nice try buddy
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BRO YOU BRAIN DEAD DAD GAMER, you literally said “these are low-skill weapons” in your original post, and sorry but full auto weapons are FUNDAMENTALLY low-skill ie: spam weapons, easy to use for the most, extremely forgiving if you’re missing shots etc. you clearly don’t know much about pvp, nice try there little buddy
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Edited by Dubufu: 12/3/2018 7:27:04 AMLook, if you want to rock a Dust Rock Blues/Luna's howl crutch like you are now, nothing is stopping you. I'm sorry if you are pissy over an opinion. You can gladly disregard my opinion and I can disregard yours, as I have already stated my reasons why smg's are not low skilled and why yours are, which you have yet to provide a counterclaim for. [i]Nice try buddy[/i] Have a good day.
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So if you take two equally skilled players (A and B), and give A an SMG and B a NF, who do you think would win? Skill is better measured by the ability to use non-meta weapons and still perform well against meta weapons. And last time I checked, SMG are not Meta... HC's are lol.
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No. Skill is how "good" you are at using a weapon. If SMG's were given a 10% damage buff tomorrow, they would quickly become meta. Are they still high skill? Skill has nothing to do with the meta. Skill is completely reliant on accuracy, timing, map awareness, and literally hitting headshots. Fast RPM weapons are considered low skill because missing a shot or two doesn't hurt you that much. Hand cannons, snipers, and scout rifles are high skill because missing a shot basically warrants you losing the gunfight. Let me say it again. Skill has nothing to do with the meta. Skill is based off the player, and the player alone. A skilled player can take a non-meta weapon and do well. A skilled player can take a meta weapon and do well. Shotguns, Pulse rifles, SMG's, AR's, and SMG's are low skill weapons. If they were the meta, ANYONE could use them and succeed.
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Tbf if two equally skilled players used NF or let's say Antiope, the NF player would win. It's a better gun. But, the effort of getting NF is so high it should be a better gun. I hate (yes, hate) players who have attitudes like 'I own the game so I should get everything in it', I am glad there are guns out there which are beyond the reach of players because that shows a ranking system. That is a mark to separate the wheat from the chaff. And while, Im by no means amazing at this game, I can go up against all but the absolute best and so okay. The people who are moaning about these guns are the cannonfodder who most players pray aren't on they're team, because it's probably going to mean a loss. Last I checked FPS games where still based on skill, it's not final fantasy, where you tell x to use Firaga and it's definitely going to kill in one shot. Accuracy and decision making coming into it as much as any weapon.
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Skill is directly proportional to how hard it is to use X weapon. Meta weapons are the easiest to use. The meta now is Handcannons/Pulse (for primaries) Therefore, it's harder to use an SMG and perform well than to use a Handcannon and perform well Conclusion: Smg's take more skill to use than HC's IN THIS META.
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Hand cannons are much harder to use, unless you take into consider 180's, which are stupidly OP. I disagree, though, SMG's don't really take more skill. It might be harder to get kills with them but just because other weapons are better doesn't mean they are less skilled. Holding down the trigger has no no skill bearing with it. Now, if I manage to make a SMG work, maybe camping or something, then you might say that the player is skilled. But the weapon is still low skill. Spray weapons are and always will be no skill. It doesn't matter if they're good or not. Skill is proportional to ease of use. That's why snipers are high skill. Even if everyone used them and they were the meta, they still would be high skill. How easy it is to use the weapon decides the skill factor of it.
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[quote]No. Skill is how "good" you are at using a weapon. If SMG's were given a 10% damage buff tomorrow, they would quickly become meta. Are they still high skill?[/quote] [quote]Skill has nothing to do with the meta.[/quote] I'm arguing that Skill is related to the Meta and you're saying otherwise. Your example just proved my point lol. If SMG's (currently a non-meta weapon) take skill to use in this Meta, but are given a buff such that they end up being the Meta tomorrow, under my model they wouldn't take skill after they're buffed. If you change the Meta, the skill to use X weapon also changes because it becomes easier or harder to use such weapon as a result of the buffs or nerfs it received. Has it always taken the same amount of skill to use the same weapons? The answer is no.
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So if snipers became meta then they would be low skill?
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Did you play D1 when snipers were meta? Most people didn't even go for headshots. All they did was bodyshot (around 160 damage for snipers in D1) and switch to their primary to kill you with 1 bullet. Comparing how forgiving snipers were back then to how unforgiving they are now (only headshots are rewarded), it doesn't take a genius to see snipers take more skill to use now than they did back then.
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Unless they were made easier to use
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Ironically it would still take skill eitherway, just because they got a buff doesnt mean you're map awareness and aim will automatically also get a buff same goes for current meta, takes "no skill" but i dont see everyone running with lunas howl because you have to earn the weapon and yes anyone can shotgun ape but will end up with a 1 to 2 kd while someone who can use the meta properly can end up with a 6kd, there is definitely a skill gap and there always will be no matter the meta, if its so no skill, and yes like i say the meta does take less skill for the average player, why is it that the people complaining also tried the meta still failed and now are trying other weapons and want them to become the meta in hopes that their gameplay will get better, its always the game and not the player right. It affects everyone and the fact that some people are still better than others even with the same load out proves that their is still some level of skill involved hence the skill gap, start looking at personal skill and stop trying to disprove other peoples skill due to weapon use and current metas.
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[quote]but i dont see everyone running with lunas howl because you have to earn the weapon [/quote] I don't doubt you're being honest, but the stats which display weapon % usage (to what extent all weapons are being used in the crucible) show Luna is in the Top 3 most used weapons in all gamemodes. You can check this on guardian.gg I didn't say there wasn't a skill gap when comparing 2 people using the same weapons. The whole argument is what takes more skill to use, meta weapons or non-meta weapons? Saying X weapon is bad, good, great, or god-tier has no logical value if you don't explain compared to which weapons, X is bad, good, great or god-tier. Is the best SMG (Antiope-D) bad, good, great, or god-tier against the best Handcannon (Not Forgotten). It's a no-brainer lol.
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I get that but lets put it this way, this meta is "no skill" and has a smaller skill gap due to the "no skill" involved, if like you say the meta changes to guns that require more skill to use the skill gap will increase dramatically and the amount of whinery will increase with it, only difference is the actual skilled players will do much better and the less skilled players will do worse, i get what you are saying and i agree in essence that in the perfect game there will be no meta all guns will be viable and variety should be key, but that wont happen, there will always be a meta and there will always be a group that cant conform and that group usually consist of the same people mostly, almost everytime which then come to the forum wanting either a nerf or another meta change this is gonna be the cycle of destiny pvp no matter what happens, there will always be better guns than some guns due to god rolls and what not and different archetypes and class setups and so forth
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[quote]I get that but lets put it this way, this meta is "no skill" and has a smaller skill gap due to the "no skill" involved, if like you say the meta changes to guns that require more skill to use the skill gap will increase dramatically and the amount of whinery will increase with it[/quote] I think you don't understand exactly what I'm saying. I'm saying that Skill depends on Meta. Why? because a Meta shift always entails Buffs, Nerfs, and changes to both weapons and abilities. That has an impact on the skill required to use such weapons and abilities. Under my model, a weapon that is non-meta (for a particular meta) takes skill to use. While there's no numerical or objective way to gauge how skillful a meta is with respect to another, it doesn't matter if you wanna assign a 5 for "Bad", a 6 for "good", a 7 for "great", etc. because at the end of the day, whatever number you wanna give to a Meta Weapon, such number will be higher than the one assigned to a Non-Meta Weapon.
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If im still getting your point exactly right, sorry im not trying to be an idiot it just happens sometimes🤣
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Yes i get what you are saying and thats why i dont dissagree, if you are a skilled player you dont need to play with meta weapons to perform well am i right? Im not contesting that, what i am saying though is if the said skilled person would play for fun he will do so with/without meta weapons and do good, but come time to play serious the meta will be brought out. My main point is that there will always be a meta and there will always be something to complain about when people should remember this has always and always will be a game, if you are playing quickplay play for fun its up to you, just because you get rekt in the beginning doesnt mean you should stop, screw your kd and have fun, i use meta mostly but i pull my snipers in from time to time because i love sniping i try new guns every now and then to enjoy the game and to get off the same old bland meta, it remains the players choice as to what they use and you dont always have to do great and win.
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[quote]if you are a skilled player you dont need to play with meta weapons to perform well am i right?[/quote] I agree with this to an extent. What happens when two equally skilled players are facing eachother, and one is using a non-meta weapon while the other is using a meta weapon? If you repeat the same experiment a lot of times, it's not crazy to think the meta guy will win most of the time. Even if both of them are playing seriously, the non-meta guy will have more trouble competing because his weapon has more limitations and weaknesses than the weapon his opponent is using. The ability to overcome such high number of limitations and weaknesses on a non-meta weapon when compared to the few amount of limitations and weaknesses on a meta weapon, involves skill.
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It doesn't. Your EFFECTIVENESS might change, but not skill By definition, skill is... the ability to do something well; expertise. How does the meta tie in to expertise or the ABILITY to do something well. Even if my hand cannon did 10 damage to the head, it would still be skilled. And the general consensus for every shooter is that more forgiving weapons are less skilled and less forgiving weapons are higher skilled. Expertise has nothing to do with how potent something is in its current state. Example : Snipers in y3 required a lot of skill. Keeping the flinch in check, peeking the right lanes, landing the headshot. Snipers in Destiny 2 have the weird reticle thing, and the flinch. The same people in D1 who can't use snipers still can't snipe in D2. Even though D1 had better snipers.
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Smg's do a lot of things that require skill as I have mentioned before. While hand cannons are risky due to the possibility of missing, SMG's have an obvious disadvantage [b]SMG's have to compete at the same range as shotguns and fusion rifles.[/b] It's kinda hard to do that when the potential of either a shotgun or fusion completely outclass the effectiveness of a submachine gun. Precision shotguns like Dust Rock Blues can 1 shot at a range where a SMG becomes viable. It takes a seriously amount to finessing to have counterplay using a sub-machine gun, and have serious risk. Saying a hand cannon is a high skill weapon because "you can miss" is not an excuse. That can be applied to any gun, even shotguns, which are the most user friendly guns in the game. And it's not even a good excuse because aim assist and target acquisition perks come into play.
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That's a problem with effectiveness. Not skill. If shotguns weren't so dominant then SMG's would be more effective. Whether SMGs are effective or not has nothing to do with the fact that I just hold down the trigger and spray. SMG's do need a buff, but they are not as skilled as hand cannons. (180's are the exception.)
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[quote]It doesn't. Your EFFECTIVENESS might change, but not skill By definition, skill is... the ability to do something well; expertise.[/quote] Answer me this... is your ability to do something well impacted by a Meta Shift (buffs and nerfs applied to your weapon/abilities) yes or no? [quote]And the general consensus for every shooter is that more forgiving weapons are less skilled and less forgiving weapons are higher skilled.[/quote] I agree, but the only criterion you based your argument on to claim that it takes more skill to use HC's over SMG's is button mechanics. Did Last Word take minimum skill to use because it was Full-auto and only required to hold a button to shoot it? Do Full-Auto Sidearms, Pulses, and Scouts take no skill for the same reason? Holding R2 with an SMG won't get you any easy kills unless you're using it on ranges that are currently dominated by other weapons like Shotguns. What's the Meta again? oh yea a HC paired up with a Shotgun lol.
