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3/24/2023 1:07:21 PM
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I like a challenge, but I am losing players. Difficulty needs an immediate tuning.

tl;dr: I want to be able to choose whether i am doing casual or sweaty stuff, I want to be able to carry my casual friends through hard content, and I want my casual friends and clan mates not to stop playing the game. Currently, the game is exceptionally tedious. While legendary may not seem GM hard to sweaty players like you and me, for a lot of casuals it does, and when you look at the percentage of the player base who choose to do GMs and master raids, why, oh why, would Bungie choose to make everything feel like a GM to these players? In principle, I think fixed difficulty is an idea worth exploring. I am one of those players who usually don't play strikes until GMs drop; I like the challenge, and the overpowered grind is getting old after 6+ years. GMs are (almost) always a fun challenge. I am not everyone, though. I play with a lot of people who would qualify as casuals. They are adults with lives, they like to play to wind down and have fun, and they can't commit hours daily, like I can. Currently the game is not fun. Not for those players. And let's be honest. These are the majority. We need those players to keep playing the game, and they are already disappearing from my "friends online"-list, at least a couple every day. When I bring one of them into node.ovrd.avalon legendary, and they realize this will take hours, usually they say, "well, we can try again in a few weeks, when i am higher level", and I tell them this is it. It will always be this hard, they leave. They are never playing that mission again. I realize that this is supposed to be a challenge, but it is currently impossible to do for the majority of the player base. If this is by design, it is a bad design. It should at least be possible to help them through it. The current changes are gatekeeping people from playing the game, and it is ruining the commitment of people who carry friends and clan mates. It used to be possible for people with real life responsibilities to do the hard stuff, with some help, and after grinding some levels. Now they can't. I randomly match made with a rank 2 in heist battleground that had been at the boss fight for over 2 hours, how do you think they like the game they spent 100$ on. Honestly, if I was a casual player, I would consider asking my money back for this DLC. I would for sure not buy the next one. Even my more hard core friends are bored. Bored of doing ridiculously hard carries. Bored of spending hours on mundane tasks that used to be able to be done in rather quick fashion. And I'm not talking about new stuff, I'm talking about having to commit an 15 minutes to do a legendary sector you have done 100 times before, because you run out of ammo on the champions and have to primary the boss for 12 minutes straight, and then do it 4 more times. Sure, i could rebuild my char, but casuals don't do that (Dad builds are a thing for a reason.) A lot of my friends lets us more experienced players build their chars, and then they stick with that, they want to play, not build. And honestly, I don't want to either. I don't want to have to sweat it up to do mundane tasks. As has happened before (shout out to D2 year 1, time gated content, and speed run catering), Bungie confuses "challenging" with "tedious". It used to be a choice to do hard stuff. And I usually chose it. I think hard is fun, I have more seals and raid carries than most, but I'm not everyone. While hard used to be a choice, it is now forced. And it is tedious. Tedious is not fun. Tedious is boring. As I don't like to complain without suggesting specifics, here we go: * Making things a bit harder than they used to be is fine. The level of some stuff, like playlist strikes and the like is all good. Its not hard, but it is less boring. Good change, but: * Having basically everything level locked takes away the feeling of mastery and fun for some of the low level stuff. When it is harder to survive patrol than dungeons, something is off, and when players have to hard stuff, to get to the level to do raids and dungeons, and the dungeons and raids are easier than the missions you did to get there, that's just weird. Endgame is turned upside down. This needs some looking into. When you have reached the hard cap, patrolling should not be a true danger to you any more. You are supposed to be a guardian, we are supposed to be badass. * My main peeve: Master and Legendary are way to close to each other. Legendary should be mid tier. A way to make casuals ease into hard (master, GM) stuff. Now it just feels like a slightly lower tier master, and with time limits not adjusted for the difficulty, it is honestly easier (if you are sweaty) to do master NFs than Legendary, if you care for the score. Locking in legendary at -10 when master is -15 is just pointless. Seriously, they are pretty much the same, we now just have to do it twice, once on legendary when we are leveling up, and once again on master later. We are just doing what feels like master twice. And for no real return, either. In other words, legendary is way too close to master, and honestly, should be easier. Legendary should be the optional fun challenge for casuals, not a gatekeeper from doing harder stuff. * Beefin up the ads with the size of the fireteam is broken. When it takes 2 fusion rifle bursts to kill a redbar goblin because you are a level locked fireteam of 3, and people end up doing the missions solo or with 2 people because that is easier than doing a fireteam, something is wrong. It also stops people from doing carries and helping each other. Making tings a bit harder with a team is a good idea, but it is tuned wrong. It should be easier to do missions when you team up with friends. Not harder. Again, gatekeeping regular players from playing the fun content. The avalon mission is ridicolous on this, what could, and should be an epic adventure mission is just insanely boring and frustrating. We can't even carry people through it because of the level and limited revives. Which brings me to * Fix node.ovrd.avalon: Last seasons exotic mission was a good enough balance. It was challenging, but not impossible. Casual players loved it when they got helped through it, and they could usually do it on their own if they teamed up with some friends. Doing it solo, it was more fun to do legendary than normal, for the more experienced players. I would have been fine with a master tier version as well. Avalon is just completely broken. It is harder than most GMs, it is way harder than RoN contest was, and there is nothing the people who never would choose to play GMs can do about mediating it. They are locked out. And what makes it worse is that it ruins the promise of "well, the campaign was a bit short, but there is more cool content later in the season". * Realize that tuning everything for hardcore PC playing streamers is a huge mistake. I know engagement is important, but there is something called "throwing the baby out with the bath water". If you make the game too hard to play for casuals and dads who got the family a PS5 for christmas, they will stop playing the game, and then no one will be watching the streamers either. Make the regular game fun for players, not an intellectual exercise for streamers and sweats. Thats what master and GM is for. Fixed difficulty levels are in general a fine idea for end game content, like GMs always had. But as usual, Bungie took it too far. It needs IMMEDIATE tuning, before I lose half my clan to other games, for them never to come back. I have already lost people who have been playing for years, and a lot of the people who still play do it because they love the game and they desperately want it to work, hoping it will get better. And to anyone trying to respond with "git good", congratulations, you missed the point, and you just sound elitist. Respect that most people play games to have fun, and that the developers need to cater to them as much as anyone. Also, you make it painfully obvious that you are not communicating with casuals, nor are you one of the people who care about helping less experienced players getting things done, or you would know how off putting the current difficulty is to these players.
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  • Modifié par Kouz_MC : 3/26/2023 5:35:17 PM
    To summarize, scaling for legendary Avalon is too aggressive for a fireteam of 3. The mission is also bugged and needs fixing. 1) Chickens shouldn’t be farming players in the pool at the hydra, the pool should be a safe zone, as written on the screen. Chickens shouldn’t be able to spam attacks inside the pool despite being blinded. 2) Motes don’t register appropriately. Depositing does not reflect the number of motes picked up. 3) Boss in final stand shouldn’t be on full-auto mode. Everything else is fine now that threshers got a little candy. I disagree with the general extrapolation. The real issue is lack of actual content. This DLC has very little to offer in general. People are stopping to play bc there is nothing to play beyond the short campaign, and obtaining catalysts or guardian ranks which are childish, not relevant content to many, and only reflect how much content customers bought, instead of any level of skill.

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    1 commentaire
    • Tassi Forbes article out today on Legend / Legendary difficulty changes sums up what is going on very well. Many may not have known that there is a difference between these two and why that difference matters and how it is affecting the game. Hopefully bungie will listen

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      • 24
        It's tedious. It's tiring. It's mundane. The loot is trash. Battlegrounds are miserable, nightfalls are miserable, PvP is beyond broken, gambit is pointless. I've lived in this game for 8 years & now I'm tired even thinking about playing again. Worst £80 I ever spent.

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        5 commentaires
        • My main gripe has got to be Bungie’s encounter design philosophy. Which can only be described as “cheap” or borderline trolling. For most encounters adds respawn in faster than they can be dealt with. Therefore, no point in killing adds - just focus on the boss and strategise your map rotation. Other examples include the hydra boss in Avalon. Jump into the pit but then suddenly wyvern spawn in 10 seconds before a wipe mechanic and spam the pit that has no cover yet you must remain in. Duality. Bellkeepers are adds that can blast you for miles, oh and the arena is literally a floating platform. Pit of heresy. Start a damage phase on the last boss and cursed thrall suddenly spawn en masse and sneak behind you whilst you’re focused on dps. New arms dealer strike. Top of the lift and you’re flanked by turrets from all sides that cut you down instantly. Annoyances like that. I’m a fan of the idea of increased add density from vanilla D2, to compliment the updated sandbox and power creep. But it’s another thing for there to be so many adds which are also to spongy to be dealt with efficiently, whilst also having to deal with sometimes frankly unfair encounter design. Hardcore players can overcome and adapt to such encounters, but for the majority of players, they will just accept that “x encounter” can’t be beaten simply because there’s no way to do it. As for the difficulty scaling across the game as a whole, well Bungie have clearly lost the plot if a bog standard patrol is harder than a raid (arguably even contest mode).

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        • You’re a gem amongst the endless pile of “git gud scrub” elitist a-holes that think that the content is only for them. I used to Sherpa in D1 and Year one of D2. Then my raid clan imploded due to the increase in difficulty and some amongst them being a “carry”. I went back to the game at the end of season 18 and I was enjoying the difficulty of WQ Legendary and the GM’s. Now it seems like the game has been overturned for those on PC and those that have much quicker twitch than that of my 50 year old self. I’m not a casual. But I’m not a professional gamer, in my 20’s or 30’s, on PC making a living off this game and complaining it’s too easy either. The numbers are falling, we are seeing people in our clans stop playing. Bungie really need to rethink the difficulty spike at the lower to mid tier of the game. If the casuals leave then the game will die, as others in the clans that play with them will also stop playing. These people are our friends after all. The whales and the 1% aren’t enough to support the game. It seems like Bungie has forgotten the lessons of Year 1 of D2. Looks like the casuals will have to teach it to them again. 😞

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          17 commentaires
          • Exactly games should cater more to casuals.

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          • Keep up or get left behind

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          • I keep reading how this is the streamers fault… so why aren’t ppl going after them ? We made them we can break them. The Destiny community is why they get to sit at a home all day playing games for money. What do you think happens to their sponsorships when all their videos and streams start getting down voted into the ground ? If Bungie won’t listen to us maybe they’ll pay attention when their golden boys have to start looking for work ?

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            8 commentaires
            • Thank you for this. I appreciate the higher-skilled players speaking for us scrub a dubs.

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            • I consider myself a “casual core” player. I don’t have the hours to devote myself as a hardcore player, but I enjoy a good challenge. I haven’t Raided in several years, not for lack of want, but for lack of time. I’m a dad, I’m busy as hell, but when I jump on to play, I don’t want to pass over activities because I don’t have the time. I feel like you hit the nail on the head. The difficulty ramp up has made the game tedious. Things that used to take 15-20 minutes take longer and it just equates to me doing fewer things. Operation Seraph Shield on Legendary Solo felt like the perfect balance of challenge. It took me about a dozen tries to flawless that thing and I put myself through it because I felt like I could get it done. Every time I died I knew I made a mistake. I would tweak my load out to counter what got me last time and eventually I cleared it solo. I never felt overwhelmed but I never felt like I could let my guard down. Now, I can’t run around Neomuna without getting slaughtered by a swarm of adds that infinitely spawn or a stupid Thresher. That’s another thing I’m not a fan of, Destiny has never really be a game where adds spawn infinitely during a boss fight, but it seems like a new “feature” in the game that, again, makes the game tedious. Tried doing a Legendary Lost Sector the other day, kept getting 2 tapped by the stupid adds that now continuously spawn… and by the time they get cleared, you’ve got a few seconds to damage the boss before they’re right back in. I know I was a tad under level at the time, but it didn’t used to be that way.

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            • Well written. A friend just started playing and he kept getting stuck because the content is too hard... especially if you don't have a vault full of personally curated gear to choose from. It used to be you could complete most game content with random gear drops, and then you needed your personally currated gear for challenging endgame (raids, gms, etc.) Bungie needs to revert to WitchQueen difficulty. Then they need to add in "Elite" difficulty levels so that the hardcore players have a place for challenge. The catch is, they need to avoid tying complition of elite level into triumphs etc. Instead, completing elite level activities should give you more focusing power (i.e., you complete an elite lost sector, you choose which piece of gear drops. Replayability comes from farming for your god role).

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            • Nothing like working all day to come home and work even more to play a game. I totally get it. It kept creeping down this dirt road at 10 mph for years just to get on the freeway with lightfall doing 75.

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            • We've been long overdue a tip of the scales. What we're going through now feels like testing the waters of how far those scales need to be tipped. Fixed difficulty does look like the way they're going. So all in all overlevelling will mean very little for a majority of the content. Which is fine it means builds and weapons come into play more.

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              1 commentaire
              • Just get used to it, the rest of us have.

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                9 commentaires
                • My question is, what is the point of power in this game if most activities are scaling the enemies at +5 your level and Strikes have a fixed power level?

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                  3 commentaires
                  • Modifié par Mistress Ani 99 : 3/25/2023 1:05:53 AM
                    Well said, completely on point. Players are leaving in droves because of Bungie’s poorly thought out design choices and yet there are very vocal “ groups” crying for more difficulties to be added. They only run in stacked teams, with optimal loadouts and end level gear… not your average Destiny player by any means. Players want many things from a game but listening to the very vocal minority and only implementing those options is a major mistake.

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                  • The grind to run ratio in this game, especially in very difficult content is not nearly balanced enough towards fun to make it overall fun to play, which has always been true, but is highlighted now because of the change in difficulty

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                    2 commentaires
                    • Thank you sir/madam for such a balanced, well thought-out and carefully crafted discussion on this subject matter. This is one of the most accurate descriptions of what has happened to Destiny and its player base (on both sides of the spectrum) since the launch of Lightfall I have read to date.

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                    • I agree completely. After playing D2 for about 2 years I'm starting to regret that I pre-ordered this DLC and the annual pass. What have I gotten myself into? Sadly, few realize that sometimes no matter how much you practice you'll never be an expert. Not everyone is gifted in the same way. Practice has it's limits. A person can only get so good before they reach a plateau. Practice can make a person "better" than they were, but it can't guarantee how good you will or can become. I could practice basketball every day but that doesn't mean I'll be able to play in the NBA. I realize that there will always be this dynamic of player difficulty when you merge everyone of various skill levels together in game play, but I feel it has become more unbalanced than it was before. Even though I am not a total newbie, I now feel a level of frustration that makes me feel less and less likely to play.

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                    • Completely agree, this nails all the issues I have. I’ve played since D1 beta and will never be a high skill player. I don’t care, I have a blast. The 1-2 times I managed a GM felt amazing. Not even going to try until this is addressed. I can barely make it through a Neomuna patrol without feeling miserable.

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                    • I used to be one of those D1 vets who believed in "git gud" to do stuff. 8 years ago, I would have objected to your post with arguments like "skill issues," "git gud," and "make your lfg to suit your skill" rubbish. I did my best back then to go from someone who was .1 kd to 1KD and all the way to the lighthouse. I started from being carried in NF and ended up doing raids with all the exotic quests and often carrying others. Not too much, but I did my part. Now, I don't because 8 years is a long time to keep "getting good" at a game franchise, which has an expiry date. Also, like me and many others, your life would/should have changed over (almost) a decade. For context, this is how long 8 years are: [spoiler]I've helped GCSE and A-level students back in D1 days with their school projects in computing. We got in casual chat during raids and found out that someone was making a Raspberry Pi based remote control car for school. Me and my friend helped him as we were both IT nerds back then. Today they guy has passed his uni and working on a full-time role at Samsung. [/spoiler] Some D1 players would have had to ask their parent for 10$ for kings fall dlc (or whatever the price was), but today, 100$ for them is probably spare cash for drinks out with friends. These are the players who love destiny but are leaving the game because they can't be bothered to sped 15 mins in a legend lost sector with a bullet sponge for 2 tokens and a blue (pun here but you know what I mean)! [spoiler]In my real life, I lead projects spanning teams across continents for companies much bigger than Bungie and budgets that dwarf their season pass development (based on their dev/product quality). I don't know how to make games, but if you asked me to transform your billion dollar business to make it future proof, I'll do it in a heartbeat (of course for a hefty fee 😉)[/spoiler] When I go to the cinema to de-stress and watch John Wick 4 (awesome movie, btw), I don't expect to "git gud" to enjoy the show. I expect Keanue Reeves to do it for me, at least in the 4th movie. Similarly, in an entertainment game like D2, I expect my guardian to be good enough to entertain me without getting good anymore. Imagine if every John Wick movie started from the same old story of him being born and growing up as a mercenary and repeating the same story to build his rep for the first 2 hours. This is what D2 is in every DLC, and every season passes. It's no longer fun after 8 years. Bungie has not progressed the game model and lore model since the season pass system started. It has stagnated to a point where boredom settles in quicker than a B grade movie. Difficulty inflation is a bi-product of the lack of creativity creeping in every season and every DLC. This model works for ESport games, not for a story/lore gaming model. It is an add-on model for other top PvP ESport franchises. It is not a core model to stop people from progressing. It is only applicable where you have to invest real cash to improve, but that is borderline gambling in some cases (FIFA EA mess). If I have to grind up and make a build once more just to beat the EDZ lost sector that I've already done 50+ times for a new helmet that may not suit my playstyle then I'll pass. Sorry, I've been there and done that. If I've got to grind again and level up for the Glassway GM to get another adept weapon which I already have (yes I've conqueror from its 2nd iteration) sorry, hard pass as I've already done it. Now, if I have to grind and level up to do patrols in Neptune, 🤬 off! It is simply stupid to level up for grinding. The model is stale for a game ending in 2 years. There is no incentive with new loot to grind this stuff. People dropping off your friends list who played with you for so long are doing it because of a genuine reason. The new lights buying this game will see this very soon as they are probably less patient than us on the forums.

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                      2 commentaires
                      • Modifié par Aztec218 : 3/27/2023 6:54:43 AM
                        This season is ruing our clan as no one wants to help out clanmates due to the scaling in fireteams and the revive token/ fast revive timers in some activities ( Node Avalon) To start, I am an experienced, but not a top player. I have completed the legendary campaign solo but only by cheesing the last two bosses. ( as i suspect many have) I would be unable to help anyone else get through it for the reasons above. In past seasons that was not the case, our top players and players like me would help clanmates get through content for exotics and catalysts. Now the top players go off and do the legendary stuff solo because it is easier for them than to help another through it. I have also done the flawless legendary lost sector and Master lost sectors this season. I found them to be almost identical in difficulty. I have taken to LFG to try to complete my rank up only to find Legendary Avalon to be my last task to Rank 8. Last night i was in a good fireteam. We ran Master arms dealer with no problem. Tried Legendary Avalon and got completely wrecked. My two teammates were astonished at the difficulty spike. Multiple attempts at that mission with that fireteam and other fireteams have ended the same. I am sad that I likely will never get to 8, especially after Bungie just gave away the upgrade to 7 by moving the lost sector requirement up to 8. I fully agree flawless solo legendary should have been moved. but legendary was OK where it was. Especially since level 1 to 6 meant that you have Destiny and can equip a shader. My frustrations with the rank up system aside, These changes have resulted in our clan not playing with each other except for raids and i fear in the long run will cause many other clans to split into the elite and everyone else groups, if they stay together at all. Part of the clan experience should be for the top players to sherpa the others through the tougher content. Addendum: I am now looking for a new clan. I had a chat with the founder of my current / soon to be ex clan Sunday morning regarding clanmates no longer playing together. Within an hour I was removed from the friends list of another clan admin, someone I have played extensively with for over 3 years up till lightfall. He was one of the players who said solo is easier than a group and when i asked for help it was ignored. Message received. I was the second highest light in that clan at 1825 ( if i move all my gear around.). The highest light player is new to the clan and I have never met him or played with him. He is rank 9 and a very accomplished player. He is, to the best if my knowledge, the only clan member to clear Node on Legendary. As i do not know him I messaged him to ask for advice. I actually asked if the next time he was on and had a minute if he would invite me to a party to discuss. He responded in discord by message “ my team used 3 wells and thunderlord and created orbs to chain supers”. Likely good advice, but frankly not helpful

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                        6 commentaires
                        • This was my number one fear when they announced the difficulty changes. I absolutely knew it was going to push NEWER players away. It has pushed casuals away, and this is far worse than I expected. I've been playing this game for years, but now it feels like a chore. I feel better once I log off. If it's not fixed before Diablo 4 comes out, they have huge problems.

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                        • Good post. Something I'll add just as an observation to supplement this. The number of carry service, d2 jobs ads, and direct messages for carries via throwaway accounts has increased a lot since the DLC dropped. A lot of their reviews are also going up in numbers. The last time this happened was when the crucible HC meta broke the game. Now, pve is doing it to a point that it's blatantly shameless.

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                        • My problem with the difficulty is I like playing fast, goofy, and trying out weird builds. But now I have to play slow and patiently in every activity. It's not hard, it's just boring. Shooting an enemy for 5 minutes isn't fun. Giant health bars on every enemy isn't hard,it's boring . Lightfall is basically tickle your enemies to death, and it's boring.

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                          • Modifié par ImOnlyBleeding : 3/24/2023 7:19:38 PM
                            This was a long post, but a good one. I spot-read a few paragraphs and it was clear that your thoughts were well-thought out and well-presented, so I read the whole thing. I couldn't agree more. I am fine with some difficulty bumps, but the changes this season were upside down and lopsided. The biggest increases in difficulty were at the low end, and if anything, the high end saw a drop in difficulty. For GMs, the power delta stayed the same and lost match game, which may make them easier. The increases in difficulty in patrol and legend lost sectors are definitely puzzling. Patrol is supposed to be low-tier content that you can do as a fresh new light, not over-leveled tedium. Legend lost sectors are supposed to be the more-acceessible place to grind exotics comapred to master. But, the outlier is Legend Avalon. That is among the toughest PvE challenges I've seen in this game, and I still haven't made it to the boss. Every card in the deck is stacked against you. You are 15 power under. Fireteam-based difficulty. Timed encounters. Limited revies and a wipe timer. No checkpoints. Also, Wyverns that spawn just as you are meant o go into a hidey hole with 10 seconds before a wipe mechanic. As I've said in another thread, this feels like it was designed before they made the decision to up difficulties across the board. Way back when, Bungie acknowledged designing Reckoning around Phoenix Prootocol infinite wells and Orpheus Rigs infinite tethers. When they nerfed the exotics, Reckoning jumped in difficulty, and they had to adjust it accordingly. Legend Avalon feels like the same problem - desgined for at-level OP guardians, not -15 guardians with fireteam-scaled enemies.

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