Mr. Wilson, firstly, I would like to point out that the article you use as referendum, is in fact, opinion. Nothing in it is based in fact, save what quotes were taken (used to further state that the definition of cheating on a video game is varied and no actualized consensus of what it constitutes even exists). It was well thought out and written. It even makes a compelling argument that cheating is necessary and helpful to the growth and development of the future of video games, however, since it is self-definitive and has no factual basis, had I assigned this, I fear it would receive poor marks, unless I asked for opinionated prose. Secondly, having read a number of the posts and replies, I've noticed inconsistencies in your argument and the source materials provided, of personal note, I would like to draw attention to your comments on the three types of gamers, as defined by the source materials referenced. You imply that you agree with the 3 classifications, as far as identifying as a purist. According to the poorly worded definition you choose to accept, the fact that you are on the forums at all means you are cheating (no outside help, message boards, walkthroughs, hacks, guides, ect.), which is counterintuitive, at best. If so, the correlation is that you are a hypocrite, or, actually, fall into one of the other 2 categories. Seeing as the second classification wouldn't see this as cheating since it is a part of the code working as intended (not as desired by the devs possibly, but still an enemy walking out of DOT areas is how they intended mob ai to react, and there are opportunities and many enemies that can be knocked into pits for precedence on mob death by falling into pits). The third class of gamer also would not complain, either, since the aethon bounce out has literally no effect on another player whatsoever, save those directly involved in the boss fight, and I'm assuming they provided consent. Having deduced that you don't fall into any of the three categories you provided, I'm going to assume that the reference material has a major lack of accurate and factual information leaving your biased argument as blatant opinion. Tldr? Make sure you use references based on fact with legitimate information agreed on by the greater consensus. Stating opinion as fact and then backing it with more opinion makes your arguments weak, and easily undermines your effort. P.S. please notice I made no attempt to argue for or against the use of atheon's push as a tactic. I'm just getting frustrated over the sheer amount of misinformation and opinion spread as fact on these boards.

Did Bungie specifically say before the raid was released to do the raid a specific way? No. They said there's no waypoints or anything to guide your group. You'll have to figure it out for yourself. Well, people figured it out. Was it the way Bungie anticipated? Probably not, but nonetheless it's still in the game. So who are you to tell people the correct way to play the game? If I want to run around with a titan that has all agility are you going to attack me for playing it differently than the general heavy armor/health spec that Bungie describes them as? Are you going to say I'm cheating if I want to run a group of all sunsingers for self-revives? If so you're 1. a complete asshole, and 2. flat out wrong. I'll play the game how I want, and you'll play the game how you want. If you think the original way is better, then fine, do it that way, but don't try and tell everyone else not to play the game the way they want. So all in all: Shut the hell up, Kthx.

Pushing or encouraging an enemy to fall off a ledge is not a "non-standard method for creating an advantage beyond normal gameplay [...]" If I can be killed by falling off a ledge, then why can't my enemies? If this is cheating, then I call cheating on the enemies that slam me into the environment or off ledges.

But what if I don't care?

I witnessed Atheon push one of my teammates off the map, so does that mean Atheon cheated? The room has no walls, so the hazard of falling off is there for both players, and the Atheon. I said once, in another forum, that this is a sound tactic. Any military personnel will tell you that the best strategy involves tactics that exploit an enemies weaknesses, whether it be their own flaws, the weather, the terrain, etc... in order to make the mission as quick and safe as possible. In this regard those that force Atheon to his death by pushing him back are the smart players, as they are choosing the quickest and safest way to take down the enemy. Sure, some people have perfected this method to a point that it seems like cheating, but really, they have done little more than learn to flawlessly execute the strategy.

There is no logical way to defend pushing him off. You can come up with excuses and say "if he can push me off then I can push him off", but it's all bullshit and every single person that pushes him off knows deep down they are cheating. Whether you want to admit it or not, but you know it's true. I couldn't agree more with OP...

Bungie said we would need to figure out how to do vault ourselves, with no waypoints. And we did. Not our fault they left more then one way to kill him. Hell, for all we know, Bungie may have left him on a floating platform, with no guard rails, and made him back up from AOE damage for this very purpose.

Non standard methods? Enemies walking off the edge is pretty standard. It happens so often that i look for it every chance i get. Hallowed knight on a narrow bridge? Flashbang. Psion flayer on a catwalk? Rocket at his feet. Aetheon anywhere near the edge? Aoe dot him. If its cheating then why can i fall off as well? It happens more often than i would like to admit. Lol.

Creative solutions for a better tomorrow

> EARNING GEAR DID YOU SEE WHAT THIS F U CKER WROTE? YOU MEAN PRAYING TO RN GEEZUS THAT I GET SOME RAID GEAR? I've done vault 3 times, once using the platforms and push off. Why the hell should I grind something the "hard" way multiple times when I don't get shit even though I've earned it

Exploits and cheating are different Exploits Use the game mechanics against its' self to obtain a goal Cheating is using an outside source to get what is desired. Example of an exploit: In WoW there was a boss called Hegian the Unclean, every couple of seconds he would do an AoE that filled up 1/3 of the room, players found a spot to where if they were standing at would not die from this ability thus making the fight much easier. Example of cheating: Someone not taking any damage from any source. Cheating leads to banning, character deletions, and other things that effect the users account. Should Bungie fix this in a later patch? Most certainly, but someone finding this out helps Bungie to make better encounters and learn from players can do. Not sure how a monster falling off effects you, but just by complaining about other people doing it means you can't and shows how immature you are. I honestly have not tried it and probably never will but I do not care for the people that find a better way to kill one monster.

Why should atheon be treated any different than a dreg, vex or a hunter? Yes you heard right I said a hunter. Back in halo, There was a achievement to knock a hunter off a ledge. The achievement for beating the raid did not say anything close to "please do not push Atheon off." The fuuuuuuuuh. Watch the hunter video above. Gezzz

A history lesson. In World War II the Allied forces sent their B17 Bombers on long range bombing missions into the heart of Europe. The German pilots realized that the bomber escorts had to cut back so far into the escort mission. So instead of taking on the enemy fighters, they waited till they had to turn back and then pounced the bombers. It wasn't cheating, it wasnt the way our airforce wanted it for sure, it was a tactic. Same here

So by that same logic, I can report people for cheating that are in a frieteam communicating in crucible/ Iron banner? Cause that is CLEARLY creating an advantage beyond normal gameplay at least until game chat is added

[quote]Correctly? In which way, your version of correctly or mine? I have done it both ways, each obviously gets the same results. The shorter "Not Pushing Atheon but instead utilizing his faulty AI mechanics as an exploit to make him commit suicide" is the developers fault not mine, they have not addressed this exploit as quickly as they did the Loot Cave and Queens Wrath Shard suppose exploits... You addressing it just adds to the momentum it gains as a growing problem with the community side that sees it as a problem. I will play the game I purchased with my own money the way I want, thanks for your insight though...[/quote] I'm just going to put my old reply here because I can...