I'm very not good. I only play in my free time so I don't really have the hours in to have found the skill set needed to get past any of the leveled up stuff in crucible. Casual gamers have no voice because hard core gamers always think a difference of opinion is the weak or unskilled bitching about being weak or unskilled. But keep on keeping on.

You can't make a valid argument with insufficient data. To make an argument that something grants an advantage despite skill, an extra-ordinary claim, you must have peak skill or access to someone with peak skill to provide the extra-ordinary evidence. I see no evidence to support the notion that any weapon circumvents the skill of the opposition, and furthermore am being provided your own submitted data to indicate this is not the case. If you're a casual player, you're a casual player. You will get beaten by those with a higher skill level. Skill being a determining factor in victory is a clear indication of a properly designed game, be it football, basket ball, or Destiny. You're more than welcome to dislike that, everyone is entitled to their own opinion. You are not however entitled to presume that simply because you have an opinion that it is valid, correct, or even relevant. I think brussel sprouts are disgusting, but that doesn't mean brussel sprouts are disgusting, it just means I think they are. You'd be wise to find a divide between your subjective and objective reasoning...not to pick on you specifically. Humans in general are notorious for our inability to do so, and I know personally, I am one.

The point here was that this was and is opinion. Claiming my skill being bad devalues my argument that there should be a Playlist specific for those weapons has no support by fact either, which seems to be what everyone here has reduced to. The augments on the exotics have the potential to make them superior to all other non exotics of the same weapon kind. That's reality, as is that these modifiers increase the challenge of those around them to beat those weapons thus creating an unbalance that there is little compensation for. That's no about skill, it's about the opportunity for victory being weighed more heavily in one's hands versus another's. Unless that's the point they were going for with this...

[b]Hypothesis[/b]: [quote]losing every exchange because some less talented douche has a far too overpowered gun.[/quote] [b]Evidence Presented[/b]: [quote]I'm very not good. I only play in my free time so I don't really have the hours in to have found the skill set needed to get past any of the leveled up stuff in crucible.[/quote] [b]Conclusion[/b]: Evidence suggests that exotics do not circumvent player skill. Your opinion that exotic weapons should be excluded from the standard playlists does not have any supporting evidence to substantiate it. It is therefore invalid. You are more than welcome to have this opinion, you are however not welcome to set a precedent that anyone deem it valid.

Separate Playlists would give all players equal chance to evolve in not only skill but give ample opportunity to get rewards without being overpowered by further advanced weapons and supers. You can claim that's wrong but it is not. Every instance of matchmaking does not pit evenly matched players against those equal to them. I appreciate your opinion though. I think you may be one of few to actually look at what was said without inference to nerfing or weakening others. Thanks.

Now had you started a thread entitled: "[b]Destiny Needs an Effin' Ranking System[/b]" and cited the vast difference in player skill and progression creating an extremely difficult environment for newer and less skilled players, I would have agreed. I fully support segregation of players by skill and experience. This is however not how you approached this known disparity. A simple, more rational approach, is present in nearly every competitive game and is even showcased in Destiny by way of level restricted strikes and raid content. Ranking systems to keep things fun for lesser skilled players whilst keeping things challenging for higher skilled players is the basis of all good competitive game design. Pro-football players wouldn't find themselves going up against a high school junior varsity team on any occasion driven by competition (maybe a fund raiser or community outreach program, but never a league game). Suffice it to say simply because an argument is invalid doesn't invalidate the underlying principle of that argument. The principle argument is however often never made or lost in the context of an invalid argument. It's why I suggested dividing the subjective, [i]what you feel to be true[/i], from the objective, [i]what you can prove to be true.[/i]

Thanks for introducing us to College Crit Reasoning 101. Fact is, this game is so unbalanced, the only thing that makes "pro" players a pro, is realizing that very fact. Shotguns/invective exotics (and that autorifle everyone uses) are game winners. Dont have one? If one "pro" has one and one doesn't, the winner is obvious...

Skill at extremely high levels isn't exclusively a vertical concept. I'll stick to football as an analogy to maintain consistency, but keep in mind this applies to every skill based competitive team game. A pro quarterback will out perform lesser skilled quarterbacks. A pro receiver will out perform lesser skilled receivers. Neither the quarterback nor the receiver can out perform each other. Both are pro, and neither can be victorious without the others skill. In Destiny, if I'm backup sniping to cover my team mate capping a control point (like a quarterback sitting in the pocket) and I have a guy covering my blind spots, and you rush up to take out my team mate on the flag with a shotgun, it's a collaboration of skill involved to stop you. I might put you down with one to the head, the guy I'm covering might take you out, or even the guy covering me might get a good shot on you and decide to take it. If we were all pro in skill level, exotic weapons will only matter if you're doing the same job for your team as the enemy is doing for his (quarterback vs quarterback, receiver vs receiver, etc). Your shiny exotic shotgun will just be corpse decoration if you get in the open against the guy at long range with even just an uncommon sniper rifle. Now the concept of Rumble free-for-all can't be ignored, and in that regard I do see shotguns being used predominately over other weapons. Is this a problem stemming from the power of shotguns? I don't think I have sufficient evidence to support that. What I do have sufficient evidence to support is that every Rumble map is predominately close quarters. Additionally it's notable that shotguns are designed to be optimal weapons in close quarters. Combine those two factors and the evidence suggests the reason shotguns are used so heavily in Rumble is a circumstance of that environment. Using the right tool for the job as the saying goes. If you have nails to drive, you should probably use a hammer. The purpose of presenting the concept of proper reasoning is not to belittle anyone. If anything proper reasoning suggests I'm no less biased or steered by subjective opinion than the next person. Instead the purpose is to find the core concept, discuss it, and be able to come to an agreement on an shared understanding of an objective fact rather than our feelings for a subjective opinion.

like that response! I would love to write everything out as you did, but swype on a phone is laborous xD. Even good Teams can be taken out (like unwinding a string) once a weakpoint is found, but that's besides the point (i hate swyping everything out lol). However, now we are assuming we are playing as a coordinated team rather than solo, which is what the OP Implied he was playing. (at least that's what i assumed). From a team standpoint, yes i would agree that coordination trumps all. In that case, one could argue that it may not be the weapons/skill level that represent a problem the OP is experiencing, but rather is simply lack of coordination from/with his team. He may be good at the game skillwise, but cannot work with a team (or vice versa). From a solo standpoint, (when playing rumble as you stated earlier), if one does not have a exotic or heavily upgraded shotgun, they will then be at a disadvantage, regardless of skill level. In this case i would definitely agree with the OP that exotics, combined with multiple gap closer dash abilities, are the reasons why he may be losing. So solutions for the OP would be: 1) find a team in which to expand teamwork/communication skills to combat and counter weapons he doesn't possess 2) Avoid Rumble (or playing any solo lone wolf strategies) knowing that, as long as his weapons are underpowered, he will be trumped if he does