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12/5/2011 3:32:04 AM
257
And they call it a peaceful protest
[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hhPdH3wE0_Y&feature=player_embedded[/url]
Enjoy
[Edited on 12.04.2011 7:33 PM PST]
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Terrab [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Maxwell_Murder [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Pixi Chix Exactly. It's called prevention. On one hand the situation could escalate to the point where people can get hurt or killed. On the other hand, it may not. Now faced with those two outcome possibilities I'd err on the side of caution. I would take the steps necessary to prevent a dangerous situation over crossing my fingers and hoping for the best. [/quote] Where do you draw the line at prevention, though? Can a cop just pull you over and give you a ticket since he thought you were going to speed? or run a stoplight? No. Why is this any different? The protesters gave no indication of escalating the situation at the time of the pepper spraying.[/quote]Don't try to strawman the argument, a group of young adults in a mob mentality of 'f*** the police' is a lot different than speeding. That's the most retarded comparison I've ever heard. Especially in this case, where they were interfering in the administration of lawful action. Come on, man. Wow.[/quote] I think a straw man is totally acceptable here. If we allow the use of military-grade pepper spray on protesters in a preemptive fashion [even when they give no indication of escalation], why not give tickets for speeding? [Edited on 12.04.2011 11:18 PM PST]
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Terrab Don't try to strawman the argument, a group of young adults in a mob mentality of 'f*** the police' is a lot different than speeding. That's the most retarded comparison I've ever heard. Especially in this case, where they were interfering in the administration of lawful action. Come on, man. Wow.[/quote]You completely missed the point. He wasn't comparing anything to speeding.
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Maxwell_Murder [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Pixi Chix Exactly. It's called prevention. On one hand the situation could escalate to the point where people can get hurt or killed. On the other hand, it may not. Now faced with those two outcome possibilities I'd err on the side of caution. I would take the steps necessary to prevent a dangerous situation over crossing my fingers and hoping for the best. [/quote] Where do you draw the line at prevention, though? Can a cop just pull you over and give you a ticket since he thought you were going to speed? or run a stoplight? No. Why is this any different? The protesters gave no indication of escalating the situation at the time of the pepper spraying.[/quote]Don't try to strawman the argument, a group of young adults in a mob mentality of 'f*** the police' is a lot different than speeding. That's the most retarded comparison I've ever heard. Especially in this case, where they were interfering in the administration of lawful action. Come on, man. Wow.
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] komark [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Maxwell_Murder [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Pixi Chix Exactly. It's called prevention. On one hand the situation could escalate to the point where people can get hurt or killed. On the other hand, it may not. Now faced with those two outcome possibilities I'd err on the side of caution. I would take the steps necessary to prevent a dangerous situation over crossing my fingers and hoping for the best. [/quote] Where do you draw the line at prevention, though? Can a cop just pull you over and give you a ticket since he thought you were going to speed? or run a stoplight? No. Why is this any different? The protesters gave no indication of escalating the situation at the time of the pepper spraying.[/quote]Except for holding the cops hostage, shouting demands at the cops.... [/quote] If you read any of my other posts, you would see that I said that if there were a time to pepper spray them, it was at that time, not when they were sitting on the ground peacefully. I'm definitely a broken record now. [quote] hmmm, these protesters are sounding an awful lot like Al Quaeda [/quote] You're high. How is protesting anything like a terrorist organization responsible for thousands of deaths of innocent people?
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Maxwell_Murder [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Pixi Chix Exactly. It's called prevention. On one hand the situation could escalate to the point where people can get hurt or killed. On the other hand, it may not. Now faced with those two outcome possibilities I'd err on the side of caution. I would take the steps necessary to prevent a dangerous situation over crossing my fingers and hoping for the best. [/quote] Where do you draw the line at prevention, though? Can a cop just pull you over and give you a ticket since he thought you were going to speed? or run a stoplight? No. Why is this any different? The protesters gave no indication of escalating the situation at the time of the pepper spraying.[/quote]Except for holding the cops hostage, shouting demands at the cops.... hmmm, these protesters are sounding an awful lot like Al Quaeda
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Pixi Chix Exactly. It's called prevention. On one hand the situation could escalate to the point where people can get hurt or killed. On the other hand, it may not. Now faced with those two outcome possibilities I'd err on the side of caution. I would take the steps necessary to prevent a dangerous situation over crossing my fingers and hoping for the best. [/quote] Where do you draw the line at prevention, though? Can a cop just pull you over and give you a ticket since he thought you were going to speed? or run a stoplight? No. Why is this any different? The protesters gave no indication of escalating the situation at the time of the pepper spraying. [Edited on 12.04.2011 11:12 PM PST]
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Exactly. It's called prevention. On one hand the situation could escalate to the point where people can get hurt or killed. On the other hand, it may not. Now faced with those two outcome possibilities I'd err on the side of caution. I would take the steps necessary to prevent a dangerous situation over crossing my fingers and hoping for the best. [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] everywhere116 [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Maxwell_Murder [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Pixi Chix No real threat until someone inevitably gets kicked, bumped, tripped, grabbed, etc... When you have that many people trying to step over people something is bound to happen, even if it's a protester staging an accident for the publicity. This would then lead to further escalation of the problem to where someone could really get hurt. The protesters aren't all lovey-dovey, peace and harmony hippies, there are some potential dangerous ones in there. The leader himself possibly the most dangerous protester since he holds all of the control. Someone would trip, el leadero would cry wolf, and a riot could erupt. Pepper spray avoids the unknown. [/quote] Assaulting someone based on what MIGHT occur is not a good way to operate.[/quote]Uhh, yeah it is, it's called WEIGHING THE PROS AND CONS OF YOUR OPTIONS.[/quote]
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People are still trying to Occupy places?
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] everywhere116 [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Maxwell_Murder [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Pixi Chix No real threat until someone inevitably gets kicked, bumped, tripped, grabbed, etc... When you have that many people trying to step over people something is bound to happen, even if it's a protester staging an accident for the publicity. This would then lead to further escalation of the problem to where someone could really get hurt. The protesters aren't all lovey-dovey, peace and harmony hippies, there are some potential dangerous ones in there. The leader himself possibly the most dangerous protester since he holds all of the control. Someone would trip, el leadero would cry wolf, and a riot could erupt. Pepper spray avoids the unknown. [/quote] Assaulting someone based on what MIGHT occur is not a good way to operate.[/quote]Uhh, yeah it is, it's called WEIGHING THE PROS AND CONS OF YOUR OPTIONS.[/quote] I'm starting to feel like I'm bashing my head against the wall. At the time of the pepper spraying, the protesters were sitting on the ground peacefully. They were not posing a threat or doing anything to provoke the police or escalating the situation. The police pepper sprayed them solely on assumptions. If there ever was a time to pepper spray them, it would have been when they were standing, surrounding the cops, and chanting. [Edited on 12.04.2011 11:11 PM PST]
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Maxwell_Murder [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Pixi Chix No real threat until someone inevitably gets kicked, bumped, tripped, grabbed, etc... When you have that many people trying to step over people something is bound to happen, even if it's a protester staging an accident for the publicity. This would then lead to further escalation of the problem to where someone could really get hurt. The protesters aren't all lovey-dovey, peace and harmony hippies, there are some potential dangerous ones in there. The leader himself possibly the most dangerous protester since he holds all of the control. Someone would trip, el leadero would cry wolf, and a riot could erupt. Pepper spray avoids the unknown. [/quote] Assaulting someone based on what MIGHT occur is not a good way to operate.[/quote]Uhh, yeah it is, it's called WEIGHING THE PROS AND CONS OF YOUR OPTIONS.
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[quote]You're right, it wasn't life or death. Why use any force if their life was not in danger?[/quote] You really think force is only justified in life or death situations? [quote]The police were surrounded when the protesters were still standing - long before they were pepper sprayed. The cops were able to step over sitting protesters; they posed no threat. Why they were pepper sprayed while sitting and posing no threat does not make sense to me.[/quote]They were surrounded the entire time, and were only able to step over the protesters when they were more concerned about covering their orafices than what the cops were doing. Doing so in any other situation would have been a very, very stupid idea, which I detailed earlier and you conveniently ignored. They posed no threat? They repeated several times that they wouldn't let the cops leave. Either way, it's late and I need to get to bed. Last post from me.
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Pixi Chix No real threat until someone inevitably gets kicked, bumped, tripped, grabbed, etc... When you have that many people trying to step over people something is bound to happen, even if it's a protester staging an accident for the publicity. This would then lead to further escalation of the problem to where someone could really get hurt. The protesters aren't all lovey-dovey, peace and harmony hippies, there are some potential dangerous ones in there. The leader himself possibly the most dangerous protester since he holds all of the control. Someone would trip, el leadero would cry wolf, and a riot could erupt. Pepper spray avoids the unknown. [/quote] Assaulting someone based on what MIGHT occur is not a good way to operate.
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] tntbabin [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Maxwell_Murder [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] tntbabin [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Maxwell_Murder [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] tntbabin Yes it is speculation, but if I were a cop I'd rather spray them than take the chance, especially seeing as pepper spray has NO lasting effects. So their eyes will burn for a little while, at least nobody is really injured.[/quote] They had direct orders NOT to use pepper spray. The students at that time were not posing any sort of threat. No LASTING effects? Perhaps. That doesn't mean it doesn't suck when you get hit with it. I can slap someone in the face and say there's no lasting effects, but that doesn't make it ok to do. Let me remind you this isn't the mace that college girls carry with them so they don't get raped. This is one step down from wild bear grade pepper spray being used on peaceful humans...[/quote] My point is that if the officers had tried to move through or physically moved them out of the way someone on either side MIGHT have gotten seriously hurt. [/quote] I don't think it's justified to preemptively use high-potency pepper spray. Just because something MIGHT have happened didn't mean it was certainly going to happen.[/quote] Yeah it might or might not have happened, why take the chance when you can basically guarantee no one will be injured. yeah it'll sting for a little while but it's better than a possible escalation in violence. It seems we may have to agree to disagree. Mainly cause we both seem to be saying the same things over and over again and not changing the others opinion XD.[/quote] Where do you draw the line with who can pepper spray who, and when? If I pepper spray someone who said something mean to me in the grocery store, is that okay since it doesn't have any long-lasting effects? No, I'll get charged with assault and battery. Why is it okay for cops to do it to peaceful protesters?
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Pixi Chix No real threat until someone inevitably gets kicked, bumped, tripped, grabbed, etc... When you have that many people trying to step over people something is bound to happen, even if it's a protester staging an accident for the publicity. This would then lead to further escalation of the problem to where someone could really get hurt. The protesters aren't all lovey-dovey, peace and harmony hippies, there are some potential dangerous ones in there. The leader himself possibly the most dangerous protester since he holds all of the control. Someone would trip, el leadero would cry wolf, and a riot could erupt. Pepper spray avoids the unknown. [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Maxwell_Murder [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] everywhere116 [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Maxwell_Murder But this isn't a war. That analogy does not compare. Nobody's holding a lethal weapon to anyone's head. [/quote]Comically missing the point. The main problem isn't that this isn't a life or death situation, it's that you're dismissing rather obvious facts as 'speculation', when it is completely asinine to do so.[/quote] You're right, it wasn't life or death. Why use any force if their life was not in danger? [quote] [quote]They could go around them if they desperately needed to use that walkway. There were plenty of other walkways to use to get by, anyway.[/quote] Except that the video clearly showed that they were surrounded.[/quote] The police were surrounded when the protesters were still standing - long before they were pepper sprayed. The cops were able to step over sitting protesters; they posed no threat.[/quote][/quote] Well said.
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No real threat until someone inevitably gets kicked, bumped, tripped, grabbed, etc... When you have that many people trying to step over people something is bound to happen, even if it's a protester staging an accident for the publicity. This would then lead to further escalation of the problem to where someone could really get hurt. The protesters aren't all lovey-dovey, peace and harmony hippies, there are some potential dangerous ones in there. The leader himself possibly the most dangerous protester since he holds all of the control. Someone would trip, el leadero would cry wolf, and a riot could erupt. Pepper spray avoids the unknown. [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Maxwell_Murder [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] everywhere116 [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Maxwell_Murder But this isn't a war. That analogy does not compare. Nobody's holding a lethal weapon to anyone's head. [/quote]Comically missing the point. The main problem isn't that this isn't a life or death situation, it's that you're dismissing rather obvious facts as 'speculation', when it is completely asinine to do so.[/quote] You're right, it wasn't life or death. Why use any force if their life was not in danger? [quote] [quote]They could go around them if they desperately needed to use that walkway. There were plenty of other walkways to use to get by, anyway.[/quote] Except that the video clearly showed that they were surrounded.[/quote] The police were surrounded when the protesters were still standing - long before they were pepper sprayed. The cops were able to step over sitting protesters; they posed no threat.[/quote]
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Maxwell_Murder [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] tntbabin [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Maxwell_Murder [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] tntbabin Yes it is speculation, but if I were a cop I'd rather spray them than take the chance, especially seeing as pepper spray has NO lasting effects. So their eyes will burn for a little while, at least nobody is really injured.[/quote] They had direct orders NOT to use pepper spray. The students at that time were not posing any sort of threat. No LASTING effects? Perhaps. That doesn't mean it doesn't suck when you get hit with it. I can slap someone in the face and say there's no lasting effects, but that doesn't make it ok to do. Let me remind you this isn't the mace that college girls carry with them so they don't get raped. This is one step down from wild bear grade pepper spray being used on peaceful humans...[/quote] My point is that if the officers had tried to move through or physically moved them out of the way someone on either side MIGHT have gotten seriously hurt. [/quote] I don't think it's justified to preemptively use high-potency pepper spray. Just because something MIGHT have happened didn't mean it was certainly going to happen.[/quote] Yeah it might or might not have happened, why take the chance when you can basically guarantee no one will be injured. yeah it'll sting for a little while but it's better than a possible escalation in violence. It seems we may have to agree to disagree. Mainly cause we both seem to be saying the same things over and over again and not changing the others opinion XD.
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Maxwell_Murder [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Pixi Chix [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Maxwell_Murder [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Serious Suicide I'd say that justifies the use of pepper spray, a crowd can't trap police officers.[/quote] Then the police should have pepper sprayed them when they were being blocked in, not when the protesters were sitting on the ground.[/quote] Umm... The protesters were sitting on the ground blocking them in. [/quote] You can see cops stepping over them in most of the videos from that day. They were not being blocked in when they were sitting.[/quote] However, the fear was that once the officers tried to move en mass, the crowd could have moved in to properly block the path.
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Locke357 [url=http://cdn-www.i-am-bored.com/media/riotcopovertheyears.jpg]riot police getting far more violent[/url] [/quote] Wow. 2011 is very "citizen, pick up that can".
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] tntbabin [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Maxwell_Murder [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] tntbabin Yes it is speculation, but if I were a cop I'd rather spray them than take the chance, especially seeing as pepper spray has NO lasting effects. So their eyes will burn for a little while, at least nobody is really injured.[/quote] They had direct orders NOT to use pepper spray. The students at that time were not posing any sort of threat. No LASTING effects? Perhaps. That doesn't mean it doesn't suck when you get hit with it. I can slap someone in the face and say there's no lasting effects, but that doesn't make it ok to do. Let me remind you this isn't the mace that college girls carry with them so they don't get raped. This is one step down from wild bear grade pepper spray being used on peaceful humans...[/quote] My point is that if the officers had tried to move through or physically moved them out of the way someone on either side MIGHT have gotten seriously hurt. [/quote] I don't think it's justified to preemptively use high-potency pepper spray. Just because something MIGHT have happened didn't mean it was certainly going to happen.
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I don't know which is worse, [url=http://cdn-www.i-am-bored.com/media/riotcopovertheyears.jpg]riot police getting far more violent[/url] and the blatant disregard for the right to protest, or that so many Americans are okay with it. Ah well, I'll just sit back and be thankful I'm Canadian while the US becomes more of a police state with every passing day. [Edited on 12.04.2011 10:51 PM PST]
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] everywhere116 [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Maxwell_Murder But this isn't a war. That analogy does not compare. Nobody's holding a lethal weapon to anyone's head. [/quote]Comically missing the point. The main problem isn't that this isn't a life or death situation, it's that you're dismissing rather obvious facts as 'speculation', when it is completely asinine to do so.[/quote] You're right, it wasn't life or death. Why use any force if their life was not in danger? [quote] [quote]They could go around them if they desperately needed to use that walkway. There were plenty of other walkways to use to get by, anyway.[/quote] Except that the video clearly showed that they were surrounded.[/quote] The police were surrounded when the protesters were still standing - long before they were pepper sprayed. The cops were able to step over sitting protesters; they posed no threat. Why they were pepper sprayed while sitting and posing no threat does not make sense to me. [Edited on 12.04.2011 10:50 PM PST]
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Maxwell_Murder [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] tntbabin Oh and where did hear about the officers being told not to use mace, I didn't hear about that. If they didn't want them to use mace I wonder what they did want them to do.[/quote] [url=http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lanow/2011/11/uc-davis-pepper-spray-chancellor-police-defied-orders.html]Here[/url][/quote] It sounds like she's trying to save her own skin. However I can't say that for certain obviously. Still approve of the pepper spray though, even if she didn't. Up until the part where they got surrounded it looked like things could be handled without violence. Then they decided to encircle the police what were they supposed to do let the people they arrested go? That would only show that police authority means little to nothing.
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Pixi Chix [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Maxwell_Murder [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Serious Suicide I'd say that justifies the use of pepper spray, a crowd can't trap police officers.[/quote] Then the police should have pepper sprayed them when they were being blocked in, not when the protesters were sitting on the ground.[/quote] Umm... The protesters were sitting on the ground blocking them in. [/quote] You can see cops stepping over them in most of the videos from that day. They were not being blocked in when they were sitting.
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Maxwell_Murder [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Serious Suicide I'd say that justifies the use of pepper spray, a crowd can't trap police officers.[/quote] Then the police should have pepper sprayed them when they were being blocked in, not when the protesters were sitting on the ground.[/quote]One in the same. I like how you ignore responses to your posts that are the most damning for your position.
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Maxwell_Murder [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Serious Suicide I'd say that justifies the use of pepper spray, a crowd can't trap police officers.[/quote] Then the police should have pepper sprayed them when they were being blocked in, not when the protesters were sitting on the ground.[/quote] Umm... The protesters were sitting on the ground blocking them in.
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Serious Suicide I'd say that justifies the use of pepper spray, a crowd can't trap police officers.[/quote] Then the police should have pepper sprayed them when they were being blocked in, not when the protesters were sitting on the ground.
