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6/27/2024 10:58:37 AM
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[quote]He doesn't need to be privy to the mechanics of the Sundial beforehand- he knows that the guardian [b][i][u]is from a different timeline[/u][/i][/b]and is there to save him[/quote]
Except he doesn’t know it’s an alternate timeline from his original one. It’s specifically kept vague, even to us, how the mechanics of time travel using the Sundial work. And would he find out the specifics of how it worked after the fact?
For Saint he spent the past few centuries battling Vex in the Infinite Forest, I wouldn’t be surprised if it slipped his mind to ask Osiris whether it was traditional time travel VS alternate timeline shenanigans.
[quote]Completely immaterial - you're arguing the semantics of 'being dead and coming back' versus...'being dead and coming back'. The only difference is that one was meant to be a permanent condition HE ALREADY KNOWS HE WAS SAVED FROM.[/quote]
Except he hasn’t just been saved from it, he’s been dragged into a timeline that isn’t his own. He doesn’t belong. Everyone he knew and loved is gone while the him this Osiris loved has been dead for years. That’s a fairly important distinction.
There’s also the fact that the knowledge he’s from an alternate timeline means that other Saint-14s met this very same final death, it’s not just that he managed to escape his own specific fate. He’s the only one to have been saved.
[quote]So why make it the focus then? It's just an attempt to use their gender identity as a mask for a badly written, plot-hole ridden storyline with annoying characters, so that whenever you question those elements you simply get told 'you're a bigot', completely ignoring what the complaints are ACTUALLY about.[/quote]
Hey, you’re the one bringing up the relationship itself and the focus it has as a primary complaint. I wouldn’t blame people for drawing that conclusion.
But one primary function might be that the focus isn’t JUST on the relationship, but that dream they share. If Torobatl isn’t the next major focus, then this exploration the two have planned might end up being the basis for Frontiers next year.
English
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He DOES know it's a different timeline - the lore on the Helm of Saint-14 even specifically mentions his 'prediction' that a guardian would come back in time as his saviour. If he knows that, then he knows that he's destined to die, for real, otherwise he wouldn't need saving. [u]The very fact that he was saved by somebody travelling back in time automatically makes it an alternate timeline.[/u] It's part of the very foundation of causality - you can't save somebody from dying at any point after they died because it's already happened in your timeline and doing so creates a timeline separate from the one you began in. And if he exists in a different timeline, he's not the same Saint-14, because he won't have existed until the point after the timeline split and he was brought into existence. It's just like you couldn't go back in time to kill -blam!- before he came to power, because he then wouldn't come to power and you'd have no reason to go back in time and kill him in the first place because you'd have no idea who he was. The reason for action is either negated by the action itself or it creates a timeline separate from the original. And this is why I'm also saying that the 'relationship' (and go ahead and ask the opinion of a few of the gay guardians on here and they'll tell you they don't buy it either) is simply to mask the fact that it's just not very well thought out and to divert criticism away from it. As a matter of fact, making the characters gay to try and divert from the fact that they're both really badly written and annoying is kind of a hate statement in itself toward that community...
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[quote]He DOES know it's a different timeline - the lore on the Helm of Saint-14 even specifically mentions his 'prediction' that a guardian would come back in time as his saviour. If he knows that, then he knows that he's destined to die, for real, otherwise he wouldn't need saving.[/quote] Time travel, not timeline. The assumption is easily an alteration to a singular timeline, not that he and is are from separate timelines. [quote]It's part of the very foundation of causality - you can't save somebody from dying at any point after they died because it's already happened in your timeline and doing so creates a timeline separate from the one you began in.[/quote] The Sundial’s core was paracausal in nature. [quote]And if he exists in a different timeline, he's not the same Saint-14, because he won't have existed until the point after the timeline split and he was brought into existence.[/quote] Osiris confirms the Saint we see is from a practically identical timeline, meaning at least two met the same end. If you’re wondering why there’s a focus on THIS timeline, it likely has to do with the Conductor. If they are Maya, then they know well the alternate timelines and simulations of the Vex and are likely only focused on our as she hails from it and we have defeated the Witness. In her invasion of Saint’s mind she has projected that sense of inferiority.
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You're missing the key point here - whether it's a 'practically identical' timeline or a completely different one, it's still a different timeline and still a different Saint-14. If the guardian had travelled back and NOT interacted with anything, it would be just straight time travel. The fact that they DID interact, means that they've changed events which have already happened which means they've had a causal effect. The paracausal nature of the Sundial only governs the point of the observer (being able to see various branches created by causal effects). Straight observation changes nothing but interaction changes everything. Another way to look at it is the causal effect you can have upon the Schrödinger's cat experiment. When you observe the box, it's paracausal in nature (the cat can be either alive or dead and the two possibilities exist). Once you interact with the box and open it, only one possibility can exist, but that possibility is now set for your reality and timeline. Unfortunately, the cat is dead in this instance Now go back in time and open the box again a millisecond earlier and there could be an entirely different outcome from the one in your timeline and the cat lives, in which case a whole new branch now exists. There are now two different cats, one dead, one alive and each exists within their own timeline. Your observation of this is now paracausal again (because you have memory and knowledge of both outcomes even though it's only possible for one of those to exist within your reality). If this sounds vaguely familiar, this is pretty much the essence of why the Vex run their simulations, which is what makes the entire plotline ridiculous because they could just as easily jump back and prevent the 'new' Saint-14 from existing or jump to a different timeline where he didn't rather than getting him to paint his bedroom black and refusing to open the curtains.
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[quote]You're missing the key point here - whether it's a 'practically identical' timeline or a completely different one, it's still a different timeline and still a different Saint-14.[/quote] Actually no, you’re the one missing the key point. Though it’s easy to understand given not every is familiar with the varying interpretations of time travel. It’s rather easy to interpret that we altered our current timeline, after all the past Saint-14 was visited by our Guardian from the future. Either multiple identical versions of our Guardian made the same trip to multiple versions of Saint or, from the perspective of this Saint, he’s been interacting with a singular timeline. Timelines in something like Steins Gate for example are more of a swappable outcome. A change doesn’t create a new timeline, it crosses you over to that new timeline with a new future, with small variations existing but major variations causing said shift. Then there’s implementations like Tenet, where time travel cannot actually alter anything and results in closed loops. For your point to work Saint would have had to be familiar with how the time travel of the Sundial worked, which isn’t necessarily the case. Time travel isn’t a science, there’s a reason Osiris had to invent the Sundial to save Saint-14. Now, if you can cite lore that proves Saint-14 was already aware he was from an alternate timeline or that he knew the Sundial was peering into alternate timelines and not just traditional time travel then you’ll have a point. Otherwise, there’s nothing to say that this wouldn’t be a revelation for him.
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[quote]It’s rather easy to interpret that we altered our current timeline[/quote] Yes, because we did - Saint was dead in our timeline, now he isn't. [quote]A change doesn’t create a new timeline, it crosses you over to that new timeline with a new future, with small variations existing but major variations causing said shift.[/quote] A change doesn't create a new timeline but instead places you in a new timeline? Therefore changing a timeline whether it be this one or the other, right? And it still involves a new timeline in which Saint would most definitely not be the 'real' Saint> [quote]For your point to work Saint would have had to be familiar with how the time travel of the Sundial worked,[/quote] No, in fact he wouldn't - all he'd need to know is the reason for the guardian's intervention, and as you don't exactly travel from the future to save somebody who doesn't need saving, that's a pretty obvious conclusion to come to. He'd know damned well that he wasn't meant to survive, because he didn't, hence the reason for the guardian showing up. Whether he's been transplanted from one timeline to another or saved in his, he knows that he's not meant to be there (and has known all along, or at least since the Battle of Zephyr Station where he was also given Perfect Paradox which would kind of indicate that this was part of a closed loop from within the same timeline considering that it contains an encoded message from himself as his farewell note). Saint's own words when emerging from the Infinite Forest were "My name is Saint-14. They call me the greatest Titan who ever lived. But I would be dead if not for you. Since the day I met you, I swore I would make it my duty to follow your example. I'm still trying." He knows that he should be dead, and that has been changed through whatever means, so his 'struggle' that he's not meant to be here and that his existence is a sham is something that he'd have considered and dealt with a LONG time ago, if he even considered it at all
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Editado por Shockwave 989: 6/28/2024 12:27:40 PMIt’s precisely because the Conductor has revealed to him that he’s from another timeline that Saint is having his existential crisis. [quote]”The [b]Real[/b] Saint-14 was not meant to live. You love a forgery.”[/quote] [quote]”My existence is an error. You chose me because [b]your Saint is dead.[/b]”[/quote] [quote]”Almost like a [b]simulation[/b]”[/quote] The Conductor very clearly only considers our current timeline as real, as the true timeline. No doubt because the Conductor is Maya Sundaresh, the very same Maya who gave herself to the Veil in our timeline. Saint-14 has not only been told he’s not from our original timeline, something he didn’t know, but he’s also been ‘infected’, for a lack of a better term, with this way of thinking. Hence the existential crisis we see. His struggle isn’t “I should’ve died”, it’s that the Saint-14 everyone around him knew DID die and he was pulled in to fill his place.
