And I'm not because its not about me and what I want matchmaking to magically do for me while also giving people a substandard experience. And at this point I'm going to apologize for being so terse throughout this conversation. Its just that the changes that have taken place since beyond light in terms of matchmaking truly are that good. It was above and beyond anything I could have expected and its just a shame that no one really notices. Or it could be possible that I'm just randomly having a far higher quality experience. I do doubt that's the case though. The numbers literally do not matter other than to see if everyone is being treated as similarly as possible and allowed to rise and fall of their own accord. There are still protections in place. But this is something were people are competing and to take from someone else to give to another person in a competitive setting more than what is necessary to enhance the game rather than detract from it should be seen as morally wrong. It literally has nothing to do with any numbers that we have access to. Like I said what you want involves the game heavily manipulating matches in real time. And to pretend like the game can fairly do that is a mistake imo. And its definitely a mistake to do that in a game that is supposed to have an indefinite lifetime. In order for you to get what you want the game has to literally profile people and turn them into what it wants them to be. Then, after a certain point, that's all they can be forever. Even if the game has to constantly rob them of kills so that someone else can have a tailormade experience that they as an individual approve of. This game doing that is what has contributed some of the more absurd standings of top tier players. And it not doing that and giving people more shot registration is why you see those players complaining about stasis. This game literally had it so those people were getting double digit K/Ds every other match playing solo, which should not be statistically possible. It just so happened to conveniently work out so that this tiny minority of players got treated like kings and never really had to prove anything because it was all so fake. And at the same time the people who think PvP is supposed to work like an RPG game were getting catered to at the expense of other players' game quality. The old way was just so unfair and dishonorable that its indefensible imo. And I have no problem with admitting that's just my opinion. Its one that I'm going to stand up for at this point though because too many people think that the old way was doing something that it was never doing. And too many think Destiny should work in a way that removes a lot of what makes it Destiny.

[quote]And I'm not because its not about me and what I want matchmaking to magically do for me while also giving people a substandard experience. And at this point I'm going to apologize for being so terse throughout this conversation. Its just that the changes that have taken place since beyond light in terms of matchmaking truly are that good. It was above and beyond anything I could have expected and its just a shame that no one really notices. Or it could be possible that I'm just randomly having a far higher quality experience. I do doubt that's the case though. The numbers literally do not matter other than to see if everyone is being treated as similarly as possible and allowed to rise and fall of their own accord. There are still protections in place. But this is something were people are competing and to take from someone else to give to another person in a competitive setting more than what is necessary to enhance the game rather than detract from it should be seen as morally wrong. It literally has nothing to do with any numbers that we have access to. Like I said what you want involves the game heavily manipulating matches in real time. And to pretend like the game can fairly do that is a mistake imo. And its definitely a mistake to do that in a game that is supposed to have an indefinite lifetime. In order for you to get what you want the game has to literally profile people and turn them into what it wants them to be. Then, after a certain point, that's all they can be forever. Even if the game has to constantly rob them of kills so that someone else can have a tailormade experience that they as an individual approve of. This game doing that is what has contributed some of the more absurd standings of top tier players. And it not doing that and giving people more shot registration is why you see those players complaining about stasis. This game literally had it so those people were getting double digit K/Ds every other match playing solo, which should not be statistically possible. It just so happened to conveniently work out so that this tiny minority of players got treated like kings and never really had to prove anything because it was all so fake. And at the same time the people who think PvP is supposed to work like an RPG game were getting catered to at the expense of other players' game quality. The old way was just so unfair and dishonorable that its indefensible imo. And I have no problem with admitting that's just my opinion. Its one that I'm going to stand up for at this point though because too many people think that the old way was doing something that it was never doing. And too many think Destiny should work in a way that removes a lot of what makes it Destiny.[/quote] I agree that the QOL in terms of hit registration is good. And these top tier plays are still consistently get double digit KDs. The game is already heavily manipulating games in real time. It’s manipulating it to ensure the strongest connection. At least that is what bungie says. (Lag is still common but not as bad). The only thing I’m suggesting is in the pool of 12 strong connections have a better algorithm to balance out the teams so one team doesn’t have 6 2.0s and the other has 6 0.8s. When possible of course. Of course they can’t split of an already made fireteam. The players the game is pulling won’t change just the distribution of those exact same 12 players. Resulting in those 2.0 players having some challenges and those 0.8 players not getting completely stomped on. Better matchmaking doesn’t mean overhauling the whole system. And it doesn’t mean sbmm where everyone is the exact same skill set. Minor tweaks could fix a significant number of complaints. Balanced teams is something the game is capable of doing with out changing out any of the 12 players.

It is not manipulating it to give the strongest connection. Strongest connection and shaving points over time so that people get their K/Ds essentially fed back to them are two different things. The game is simply too bombastic for us as players to individually get to say "in this scenario this should work like this and in this scenario it should work like that." Everyone has an opinion, all the game should be concerned with at this point is quality first and making the matches as fair as possible over time second. That's another thing. You simply can't focus on one match or a handful of matches or even really 50 matches and make grand assumptions about the way the game works. Over time it has to rob people of their hard work in order to cater to peoples' individual ideas of what kind of matchmaking they find acceptable. This is a game where people literally get upset because they lose control even though they don't play the objective. That and many of the other things that people do should not be catered to in any way shape or form because it breaks the game for other people when its set up like that. Literally breaks the game. When you see those unbalanced teams you have to understand that the game has to worry about more than just that specific match. There are going to be unbalanced teams because over a long enough span of time the game has to account for all kinds of other things in terms of fairness. Its why everyone actually gets a variation of match types. Everyone has actually always gotten a variation of match types no matter what the BMM was. This way, in my opinion is just much higher quality. And I seriously cannot believe the quality level when it comes to some of the players I've seen in my lobbies. I can't remember a time when you could have players like this in the same lobby and the game would work like this. This could all just be random, maybe its only my experience, and you can't really judge how matchmaking went for the season until the season is over, but it definitely feels worlds different to me. People just can't get so hung up on single match outcomes or team balancing. Team balancing itself isn't what most of the people who complain about it think it is and its something that works out a whole lot worse when its done along with trying to cater to individual tastes that have nothing to do with competition.

[quote]It is not manipulating it to give the strongest connection. Strongest connection and shaving points over time so that people get their K/Ds essentially fed back to them are two different things. The game is simply too bombastic for us as players to individually get to say "in this scenario this should work like this and in this scenario it should work like that." Everyone has an opinion, all the game should be concerned with at this point is quality first and making the matches as fair as possible over time second. That's another thing. You simply can't focus on one match or a handful of matches or even really 50 matches and make grand assumptions about the way the game works. Over time it has to rob people of their hard work in order to cater to peoples' individual ideas of what kind of matchmaking they find acceptable. This is a game where people literally get upset because they lose control even though they don't play the objective. That and many of the other things that people do should not be catered to in any way shape or form because it breaks the game for other people when its set up like that. Literally breaks the game. When you see those unbalanced teams you have to understand that the game has to worry about more than just that specific match. There are going to be unbalanced teams because over a long enough span of time the game has to account for all kinds of other things in terms of fairness. Its why everyone actually gets a variation of match types. Everyone has actually always gotten a variation of match types no matter what the BMM was. This way, in my opinion is just much higher quality. And I seriously cannot believe the quality level when it comes to some of the players I've seen in my lobbies. I can't remember a time when you could have players like this in the same lobby and the game would work like this. This could all just be random, maybe its only my experience, and you can't really judge how matchmaking went for the season until the season is over, but it definitely feels worlds different to me. People just can't get so hung up on single match outcomes or team balancing. Team balancing itself isn't what most of the people who complain about it think it is and its something that works out a whole lot worse when its done along with trying to cater to individual tastes that have nothing to do with competition.[/quote] It is manipulating. Just not the way u wanna use it. Bungie is manipulating matches for best connections and someone is still gonna be at a disadvantage from that. I’m starting to realize your a fan boy and nothing will convince you the game isn’t perfect. There have always been duds in crucible. The level of bad players hasn’t changed just the amount one side seems to have. Also rather bold of u to say that we can’t tell if matchmaking is a problem until the end of the season when they nerfed mercy requirements 2 weeks into beyond light. It actually became harder to get a mercy and the number of mercies in the game is still astronomically high. Look I’m open to anything but no game is perfect or perfectly fair and optimal. Never has been never will be. And the idea you cannot fathom the idea crucible can and should be improved upon not only shows a shortsighted side but a naïve side as well. There is a reason destiny and every game looses players in pvp. Pvp will never be perfect but we should always strive for improvements. And the idea that and one system is “perfect” is just mind blowing. I said it once I’ll say it again. Your love for destiny has made you blind. There is no denying that crucible has gotten better but that doesn’t make it perfect. Ur inability to acknowledge flaws means this conversation is pointless. To you crucible will always be amazing. Good for you. But nothing in this universe is perfect especially destiny and nothing u ever say will convince me it cannot be improved upon.

I'm sorry but if you are going to argue that someone should be given trash connections according to what someone else's opinion of matchmaking should be and that's the same as manipulating damage and other stuff during the match then that's just ridiculous. Actually it is kind of the same thing because doing one leads to the other. No one individual player should get to say its okay for someone to receive less videogame in terms of quality just so they can have their individual opinion of what is acceptable in terms of matchmaking catered to, period. Crucible was not amazing before and as a "fanboy" I'm going to give credit where credit is due. Like I said, I did not think it was possible for matchmaking to have this level of skill players in the same lobby and work this well. In my experience it has never even come close to being able to do this and its a testament to someone's hard work and determination. Or maybe its all just random, but again, it sure doesn't seem like it. [quote] And the idea you cannot fathom the idea crucible can and should be improved upon not only shows a shortsighted side but a naïve side as well.[/quote] You're entitled to that opinion and I respect it. My opinion is that its naive to not be able to notice just how much of an improvement PvP has made in terms of people in the aggregate instead of focusing on the opinions of people at the individual level. You said it yourself, its impossible for it to be perfect. But the recent improvements are not something to just poo poo away. Imo there are just some people who will never be satisfied unless they feel as though they are the best player in the world every time they play. They can't handle losing and they have the nerve to play PvP like its a single player game when there are 11 other people in the lobby and expect the game to be able to do things that it can't. I never said there's no room for improvement and out of everyone on here I've probably complained about the way PvP works the most consistently over time. But I'm not going to sit here and act like the improvements they've made aren't remarkable. There really are too many to list from the shot registration to getting maps to work for 6v6 like dead cliffs that I thought were impossible to make work. I will never stop giving credit where its due because what they've done deserves to be acknowledged. There are enough posts by people who are determined to tear the game and the people who like it down as it is. I just choose to not follow the crowd. I'm old enough that I can see that its just a bunch of kids trying to fit in. Not only that but at a certain point a good portion of these types of posts might as well just be written off as the words of bitter people who can never be satisfied and only think of themselves. I would happily play nothing but six stacks and lose for the rest of the time I play this game if that's what it takes for it to work like a real PvP where people can actually get a return on their time investment through practice. Some people are determined to talk their way to success though. Which is fine, it just doesn't make yall any better at the game. EDIT: I'm actually playing now and as soon as I typed that I got put into a join in progress against a 6 stack... Bring it on.

[quote]I'm sorry but if you are going to argue that someone should be given trash connections according to what someone else's opinion of matchmaking should be and that's the same as manipulating damage and other stuff during the match then that's just ridiculous. No one individual player should get to say its okay for someone to receive less videogame in terms of quality just so they can have their individual opinion of what is acceptable in terms of matchmaking catered to, period. Crucible was not amazing before and as a "fanboy" I'm going to give credit where credit is due. Like I said, I did not think it was possible for matchmaking to have this level of skill players in the same lobby and work this well. In my experience it has never even come close to being able to do this and its a testament to someone's hard work and determination. Or maybe its all just random, but again, it sure doesn't seem like it. [quote] And the idea you cannot fathom the idea crucible can and should be improved upon not only shows a shortsighted side but a naïve side as well.[/quote] You're entitled to that opinion and I respect it. My opinion is that its naive to not be able to notice just how much of an improvement PvP has made in terms of people in the aggregate instead of focusing on the opinions of people at the individual level. You said it yourself, its impossible for it to be perfect. But the recent improvements are not something to just poo poo away. Imo there are just some people who will never be satisfied unless they feel as though they are the best player in the world every time they play. They can't handle losing and they have the nerve to play PvP like its a single player game when there are 11 other people in the lobby and expect the game to be able to do things that it can't. I never said there's no room for improvement and out of everyone on here I've probably complained about the way PvP works the most consistently over time. But I'm not going to sit here and act like the improvements they've made aren't remarkable. There really are too many to list from the shot registration to getting maps to work for 6v6 like dead cliffs that I thought were impossible to make work. I will never stop giving credit where its due because what they've done deserves to be acknowledged. There are enough posts by people who are determined to tear the game and the people who like it down as it is. I just choose to not follow the crowd. I'm old enough that I can see that its just a bunch of kids trying to fit in. Not only that but at a certain point a good portion of these types of posts might as well just be written off as the words of bitter people who can never be satisfied and only think of themselves. I would happily play nothing but six stacks and lose for the rest of the time I play this game if that's what it takes for it to work like a real PvP where people can actually get a return on their time investment through practice. Some people are determined to talk their way to success though. Which fine, it just doesn't make yall any better at the game.[/quote] Manipulating damage? That has never even been on the table. What are you talking about. Yes I have said it’s improved. I’m not gonna ignore flaws tho. Ur argument is it’s improved so shut up about the high mercy rates? Nobody is saying anyone should feel like they are the best. U have this idea that players only ever expect to win. That’s ridiculous. Players want a fair chance at success or failure. Not a guarantee loss or a guarantee win. It’s like u are consistently missing the point. It doesn’t matter if players “improve” if the games themselves end in a blow out. Again I am constantly successful and never end a session below a 1.2. Except I understand that out of the 20 or so games I won, 30-50% were given to me not earned. Literal taking candy from a baby. And if you okay with then great. I understand some players get validation from free wins. I don’t I wanna earn them. I have some pride and don’t want hand outs. At this point either u don’t realize a lot of your wins are handouts or u get validation from it and don’t wanna admit it.

Look up SBMM. If you have no idea what I'm talking about when I say manipulating damage then you need to do some reading. I didn't tell you to shut up. This is actually probably the best conversation that I've had about PvP on here this season. Its just that you are unfortunately very wrong. EDIT: God that sounded arrogant. Its not meant to its just at this point I'm defending the current direction of the game against all comers. You are playing solo and talking about how games were handed to you. Did you ever think that maybe one of the people on your team who might not be as good as you was due for a win? Its not all about any one person and the experience they have as an individual, especially not with the way this game is set up networking-wise. If you are solo the best thing to do is to somewhat look at it like Destiny is just one long neverending match that people enter and exit at times of their choosing. Then maybe you'll start to see what's really happening and that one person's opinion of what they are experiencing cannot be what the game is balanced around.

[quote]Look up SBMM. If you have no idea what I'm talking about when I say manipulating damage then you need to do some reading. I didn't tell you to shut up. This is actually probably the best conversation that I've had about PvP on here this season. Its just that you are unfortunately very wrong. You are playing solo and talking about how games were handed to you. Did you ever think that maybe one of the people on your team who might not be as good as you was due for a win? Its not all about any one person and the experience they have as an individual, especially not with the way this game is set up networking-wise. If you are solo the best thing to do is to somewhat look at it like Destiny is just one long neverending match that people enter and exit at times of their choosing. Then maybe you'll start to see what's really happening and that one person's opinion of what they are experiencing cannot be what the game is balanced around.[/quote] If they are due for a win and that’s why they won, thats manipulating. That’s ensuring a 50% win loss ratio or close to it. Meaning that if they were due for a win and that’s why they won. It was given to them and by transit of property, given to me. U can’t have both arguments. U can’t say winning games aren’t given then state someone on ur team was due for a win. Even still, if I am constantly getting easy mercy wins, those games are still a hand out. A free what’s 2+2 question on a calculus test. Close down to the wire games are earned. Beating a team of .8 with a team of 1.3+ isn’t an achievement. It’s a hand out. A sorry for the last loss here is a free win. This isnt new. Something that gaming companies are known to do. Long win streaks and long losing streaks promote less play time. While short streaks of both incentives players to keep playing. There are whole articles written about this. Maximum profit for the gaming company. Also u can claim all day that I’m wrong but unless u are a dev on the crucible team at bungie u don’t have that authority. Ur argument has been this entire time “your wrong because I said I are”. I can claim all night that your wrong. But like you I have no real authority. I’m not gonna pretend that I do.

Actually yes I can because that's precisely what the game does. Just like when I said everyone gets a variety of matches, that's for a reason. The game is not going to just let someone lose forever, and for most people, it won't let them win forever either. This game gives matches where it keeps the score close through background stuff and it gives matches where it doesn't do that. It gives all kinds of matches really, but there has to be a rhyme and reason to it. I also have to say, you aren't "constantly getting easy mercy wins" why would you say that when you know I can tell? Come on, you know I can tell. I'm not going to throw it in your face but you know what you are saying right now just isn't true. Part of the problem with the number thing is that you can't possibly make sense out of much of what you see as far as Destiny stats simply because first off, the game has been out for almost 3 1/2 years and second over that time matchmaking has changed and the sandbox has changed and so many things have changed that it doesn't even help to really look at peoples' lifetime K/D's to make a point. I have seen plenty of God tier quality players with some really terrible K/Ds who not be able to do that if matchmaking still worked the way it used to. I don't really know what to say about the whole authority thing at the end after you just got finished arguing for the supremacy of some numbers that have nothing to do with anything. I never said I had any authority, all I said was I think they've done a good job with matchmaking. And for that matter, with a lot of other things in the game that its not cool to think they did a good job on. Game really is headed in a great direction. I'm allowed to think that just like you are allowed to think the opposite. Only time will tell which one of us is right.

[quote]Actually yes I can because that's precisely what the game does. Just like when I said everyone gets a variety of matches, that's for a reason. The game is not going to just let someone lose forever, and for most people, it won't let them win forever either. This game gives matches where it keeps the score close through background stuff and it gives matches where it doesn't do that. It gives all kinds of matches really, but there has to be a rhyme and reason to it. I also have to say, you aren't "constantly getting easy mercy wins" why would you say that when you know I can tell? Come on, you know I can tell. I'm not going to throw it in your face but you know what you are saying right now just isn't true. Part of the problem with the number thing is that you can't possibly make sense out of much of what you see as far as Destiny stats simply because first off, the game has been out for almost 3 1/2 years and second over that time matchmaking has changed and the sandbox has changed and so many things have changed that it doesn't even help to really look at peoples' lifetime K/D's to make a point. I don't really know what to say about the whole authority thing at the end after you just got finished arguing for the supremacy of some numbers that have nothing to do with anything. You are about due for a losing streak, it will probably take place between tommorrow and monday at the latest. Probably the next time you play you are about to lose more than you win. That's the way the game works because its not about any one person. I never said I had any authority, all I said was I think they've done a good job with matchmaking. And for that matter, with a lot of other things in the game that its not cool to think they did a good job on. Game really is headed in a great direction. I'm allowed to think that just like you are allowed to think the opposite. Only time will tell which one of us is right.[/quote] There it is again. Wins are not given while also saying I’m due for a losing streak and admitting there is nothing I can do. Meaning the game is going to give the enemy team a win because I have to lose. And they will get that win and another and the game will then say “it’s time to lose.” U keep making my point. The games are not fixed and matchmaking is fine as well as mercies. Also ur gonna get a guarantee lose because u have had to many wins and after a few wins more guaranteed losses. Literally contradicting urself over and over. If the game is ensuring u win or lose that a guarantee win or loss for the enemy. Either it has guarantee wins and losses or it doesn’t. If it does then it’s not an earned win but a given one. Which is a problem. By the nature of CBMM nobody should ever have endless wins or losses. There is no need for the game to interfere. It makes no sense to argue matchmaking is the best it’s ever been if the matches ur entering are won because the game wants you to. That’s not match making that fixing games. Also I do get easy mercy wins. And easy mercy losses, in fact the idea it’s a mercy means it’s easy. If it was hard it wouldn’t be a mercy. My 17 game session yesterday I had 5 mercy games. 29% mercy. Still a 1 in 3 odds. 4 of which I won and 1 I lost. That’s the nature of mercy. I don’t care about the losses personally, I’d rather get mercy loss than win but I highly doubt my teammates feel that way after 2-3 of them. And u can still track important KD stats. Go to seasonal and u can see a more accurate KD for the current and each individual season vs. lifetime KD. Season shows progression vs. KD just shows median. Edit: I think the game is going in a good direction. It’s amazing. However better matchmaking means better experience. Just cause a game is going in a good direction doesn’t mean I’m gonna pretend certain areas don’t need help. Matchmaking got better? I disagree. It’s only stayed on different levels of bad. Better than before sure. But 150 degrees is hot. And just because 120 is colder than 150 I’m not gonna say that 120 is in fact cold. Same with matchmaking. Just because it’s gotten better doesn’t inherently mean it’s good.

Its literally does all those different types of matches at different times and for different reasons. One of the most important of which is because it has to. It literally does both, or all of them, or whatever you're talking about. Does everyone just not pay attention to what's going on when they play this game? This should not have to be this complicated. You can't take what happened one day and say hey look there's too many mercies. Whatever day that was last week or whatever you lost almost every match you played. And I have had days like that too, as has almost everyone who plays the game. I know what to look at on Destiny Tracker for K/Ds. Even the seasonal ones can be somewhat misleading if you are trying to compare two different accounts or apply what's going on with them to the entire player pop. The point is that the game never was, never will be, and never should be trying to find you 11 other you's to play the game whenever you happen to get on and play it. It should also most definitely not create for you 11 other you's out of whatever players are available. Also, the future of PvP is so bright all I wish is that others felt the same. This entire game is going in such a great direction that I need to repeat that's really the only point that I'm trying to make.

[quote]Its literally does all those different types of matches at different times and for different reasons. One of the most important of which is because it has to. It literally does both, or all of them, or whatever you're talking about. Does everyone just not pay attention to what's going on when they play this game? This should not have to be this complicated. You can't take what happened one day and say hey look there's too many mercies. Whatever day that was last week or whatever you lost almost every match you played. And I have had days like that too, as has almost everyone who plays the game. I know what to look at on Destiny Tracker for K/Ds. Even the seasonal ones can be somewhat misleading if you are trying to compare two different accounts or apply what's going on with them to the entire player pop. The point is that the game never was, never will be, and never should be trying to find you 11 other you's to play the game whenever you happen to get on and play it. It should also most definitely not create for you 11 other you's out of whatever players are available. Also, the future of PvP is so bright all I wish is that others felt the same. This entire game is going in such a great direction that I need to repeat that's really the only point that I'm trying to make.[/quote] I have almost 200 games this season so far. I’m not basing it off of 1 day. The only thing I play is crucible and normally I disagree with a lot of pvp posts. Such as stasis. Is it strong? Yea. over powered? No. I would change only 1 thing and that’s it. I can live with a lot of changes ppl want but only 1 thing stands out for me. I pay close attention to crucible. Believe it or not just because someone has a different opinion than u that doesn’t automatically make them inexperienced, ignorant or lacking the ability to pay attention. It very well just be they are paying closer attention to something that u either don’t, don’t care about. Or happens to favor you so there is a bias u don’t even realize. Much like everything in life. As for the last part I’m guessing you didn’t see my edit. I agree the game is going in a good direction.

6v6 just can't go back to how it was. That's the only other point I was trying to make. Everyone is entitled to their opinion. I never said they weren't. I actually like to hear other peoples' opinions because no one person can say for sure that the way the game works for them is the way its working for other people. Other than that, its been 3 1/2 years and for me over 20k matches. I just feel like its time PvP worked like a PvP and stays on the path of being more about substance than appearance. The stuff it was doing before should be unacceptable to everyone who wants fairness. Its not about being right or wrong or who wins or loses its about quality and competitive fairness given the various circumstances surrounding the game for me. Anywho, its been nice talking but I need to go to bed. You have a good one.