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8/16/2020 8:36:10 PM
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1. Sunsetting isn’t stupid. It’s what every successful loot game has ever done to manage player power and preserve loot drive. What was stupid was Bungie thinking they could ignore this and let us level stuff up forever.
2. I believe they did this because it helped to cover up their inability to keep the game supplied in content and the games inability to generate worthwhile loot in sufficient amounts.
3. Pinnacle weapons and the chaos they created shows what happens when you put powerful items into the game and that power is a permanent addition to the game. The Reckoning was boring and one-dimensional content because it had to be made with the assumption that people were going to show up and use all that gear.
4. What does have to change is that Bungie needs to stop doing what it did during Reckoning. Using very low drop rates to artificially extend play.
The game needs to be more generous BECAUSE stuff now will be retired AND the weapon system needs to be overhauled so that there are more than just five guns in the game worth chasing so you have to hide them behind obnoxious drop rates.
TLDR: In a good loot game there is such a steady flow of cool stuff to chase and use, you don’t care that you don’t get to use the old stuff forever. In fact you don’t even want to.
The fact that sunsetting is even an issue is evidence of how badly the first five years of this franchise were managed.
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Also, an Overhaul to the Progression system because that is wasting everyone's time.
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Agree 150%. But that’s a seperate issue in my mind.
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I know it's separate I just wanted to mention it.
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What games have sunset before? I’m just curious.
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Editado por OdinsKnight101: 8/16/2020 9:31:23 PMLoot games. For example, Borderlands. - Weapons are [b]static[/b] to all their stats when you acquire them - As you move from place to place, shooting and looting bad guys, they begin to get tougher and tougher. - So, your weapon you started out with becomes worthless because it cannot keep up dealing damage - So, because the game is designed well ''you'' the player of your own accord and free will decide to [b]sunset[/b] the weapon you are using, just to keep with things going on. - All because there is no infusion.
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The problem is that the stats in Destiny are not affected by level. Which is why traditional sun-setting won't work. In Borderlands, you obtain a higher power item, with higher level stats. Doing so is a CORE part of the game. Going after a "better" version of the gear you like. So that you have both choice AND incentive to continuously replace gear. But you never lose the ability to use ANY of the gear you have acquired. So while it is not an infusion system, it is a direct replacement system. AND what becomes part of the game is to not complete certain quests or farm certain items until you are at a high enough level to maximize their usefulness. You CAN farm Doc Mercy early game. But the drop rate is so low, this would generally be a waste of time. But you can also go back at OP lvl 8 and farm the SAME boss to get the perfect gear. That is not how Destiny works. Stats are not tied to level. And THAT is why we have infusion. To maintain the same level of choice that other loot games give, while normalizing the stats across archetypes/types. The problem is that there has never been enough gear to support this type of hybrid system. There are endless random no name guns in BL. Any of which can be good. There are also high end unique guns, that do special things. So there is literally NO end to the gear you can find. Again. Not in Destiny. Very small loot pool, with a small set of perks/traits. The only true means by which they can address this would be to make stats that are affected by the ITEMS level. Which would then promote the same natural sunsetting that occurs in other loot games. Otherwise? they are just curating player choice to force people to regrind the same level of power they already have.
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I will be honest I only played Borderlands 2 up until I finished the story. I heared from a friend that the game had a raid but all it amounted to be a target with a big HP bar or something. The definite quality to Borderlands is easy to see, in that the RPG aspects outshines what Destiny and Destiny 2 have by comparison (In a massive way) I'm just unsure if what bothers you the most is going into content where foes are systematically say 500 levels below you and yet the HP damage you deal/intake is the same to if they were 20 powers below you. Like: - You go into patrol and it's listed at 300 power - You are 1020 - by that alone nothing should even scratch you as you walk by them. Or if you want to see some big Overhaul to how the stats that do not govern our (Awful) progression system change.
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Editado por LetterZero: 8/17/2020 8:07:39 AMThat’s not sun setting. I have played all four Borderlands games excessively and I can say that not a single one sunsets. What you are mistaking sun setting with is simply having no infusion. Sunsetting in Destiny is different. In Borderlands, those old guns that are too weak to work can always drop a higher level copy. The game is designed for exactly that purpose, in fact, as you return to all of the old zones to re-obtain the old quest and boss drops on Ultimate/True Vault Hunter Mode/second play through and at the max level/OP level/mayhem level. In effect, that makes it possible to get a max level beginners legendary and bring it to the end game raid bosses. Destiny, however, is different. In Destiny 1, when they first did this, I recall being unable to obtain a max level Pocket Infinity, or Black Hammer, even if they could still drop. Other guns drop sources were straight up removed, like the vendor weapons and Trials/Iron Banner weapons. If a gun was old enough, it couldn’t be infused, and with no other way to obtain a higher level version of that gun later, it was effectively “sunset”. I feel like the term sunsetting is a little strange and undefined, but when it comes to these two series, the situations are vastly different.
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No other loot game has infusion: - The reason why is found in your reply. (Ty for that) - To make you re-grind that same item at a higher level - To en-sure you have the same ferocity as you did last time, to get that perfect roll again. The Dark Below as shallow as that raid (Strike lol) was: - In the moment they did do that, they raised the Light cap to 32 - For items to reach level 32 you had to re-grind the very same exotics you already had. - You had to Grind the newest High-Level content (Raid cough cough strike) for gear to reach level 32 - You also had to grind new materials to reach that cap. You could not bring anything you had before the DLC to the new Light cap. The House of wolfs is when they broke that cycle by adding infusion. Suddenly the best loot from the VOG could used in anything they added after the base game. It singlehandedly destroyed the point of grinding any of the new weapons. They thought the counter to that would be to be able to Re-Roll any item as much as you want Via the Gun Smith (As long the weapon came with that DLC change IIRC). But the VOG weapons just toppled everything anyways. That is what lead to the Taken King and the reason why an Infusion Cap was put into place and we would not be Sun-Set again until D2, in which they destroyed our vaults. No other loot game has ever had to call attention to Its sun-setting because they never had infusion and they never promised you could keep that item forever. The loot game ends for the player when there is no new content and thus, no new tools to chase for that chase.
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I agree with you for the most part. The slight difference between the two series still being that if Destiny was Borderlands, instead of infusing gear you’d have to go back and do VoG again to get the gear once more at a higher level, similar to Rise of Iron. Also the transition between the two games wasn’t sunsetting either I think. I don’t know why anybody expected to keep everything? It’s not like that happens in other looter shooters. I think the first time we are seeing sunsetting in D2 is next expansion, as that is just putting a level cap on items like Taken King. It’s just way more thought out now. Not saying I agree or disagree, just pointing out the small points. But your post is correct anyways. Nice discussion mate. :)
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Everything that is happening and will happen, you don't have to like it. The consumers biggest power is putting the money where their mouth is.
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Destiny without loot is just a boring si-fi game, sunset destroys the core reason people play this game. The fact you are even trying to defend it shows me you have no idea how lazy of a move sunsetting in D2 is. D1 is not a good example because people begged for infusion and rejoiced when they got it. Vanilla D1 was boring to people and worse off then vanilla D2.
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Editado por OdinsKnight101: 8/17/2020 2:14:10 PMWho said the game wouldn't be w/o loot to chase? Bungie have already confirmed 3 years worth of content for D2. The point of Sun-Setting is to ultimately re-tire the but not Auto-Delete the items consisting of your gear and to replace it with new forms of power. That new power is the chase going forward. Bungie chose Shadowkeep and the season that came with and the seasons after that, to supply us with new tools, so that when retiring Pinnacle gear, would not be as a crap feeling that the Taken king did with its own infusion cap. Case and point: - Armour 2.0 - Charged with Light mods - Warmind cells. - Artefact mods. (Which defo need to effect Exotics but they have shown some hope with the pulse rifle armour mod this season)
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Lol charged with light mods are retiring soon, warmind cells nobody uses, because the customization on armor is garbage, and yeah no look at the Prophecy Dungeon: 0 new weapons. The only new weapons we got are the ones the gambit trascan gave us, and those aren’t that great either. People want to use their favorite gun, it is thee appeal to this game. If you think this game is fun for it’s story than you have shallow taste. Gnawing hunger is a smack in the face to people who grinded for it and yet they have to get a new one for no other reason than an icon? Bro how can you even defend this stuff, you are the reason they keep making bad choices. They take planets away to save space, but we have a whole collections tab that’s as useless as a bag of bricks we could delete.
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Editado por OdinsKnight101: 8/17/2020 2:57:34 PMThe original farm experience for: - Gnawing Hunger - The other gambit weapons Was tied to abysmal content that was not popular in the slightest. At also, abysmal rates of even acquiring said items. The new weapons this season are strong, and some are homages to weapons back within the Taken King but now their classification of what Frames they take, is what is important. It is not like I don't blame you or most people for not seeing the potential PvE power Warmind cell can create. The mods tied Season of the Warmind where only acquirable by an awfully designed public event and so acquisition of the mods are scarce. Armour and subsequently the mods tied to the season will eventually be retired but that does not = them not being replaced by something else and then coming back as something new to try, going forward.
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That's not sunsetting that's just moving in to higher power. Just like Destiny
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Yeah sure, but you can also grind the same gun to keep it up to your level, because it’s your favorite gun. Bungie just deleted half of our inventory, with NO way of getting it back. Borderlands doesn’t “sunset” they just have static power caps.
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[quote]Borderlands doesn’t “sunset” they just have static power caps.[/quote] And so will Bungie. You'll just be able to infuse that item up to a certain number....then you can't infuse it any more. So if you want to play end-game ("aspirational") content you'll have to go equip yourself with the new gear. Sunsetting---through it can take different forms---is how ALL loot game control power creep, while preserving your drive to go out and acquire new stuff. Because there are always GAP that form in your loadouts as you progress, and you have to go get new stuff to fill them. Becuase of infusion, in Destiny, those gaps NEVER appear. Bungie has to manufacture them by aribitrarily NERFING things at regular intervals to get you to stop using them. But at least with sunsetting, you know how long you have to use that item. You never really know when Bungie is going to swing the nerf bat and break your favorite toy.
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But nerfing your favorite toy still allows you to use it forever, the whole dang appeal to D2 is the weapons and gameplay. The only thing that broke powercreep for weapons was pinnacles and rituals, and they saw there mistake and stopped making them. You just don’t get it because you have already accepted the fact you have to regrind the EXACT same guns that have a different icon on them. This sunset move, is bs.
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So does sunsetting. It allows you to still use it—un-nerfed—in 80% of the game. While nerfing it means it’s nerfed in 100% of the game, and people stop using in the end game anyway. How quickly people forget all the bitter complaints about all those nerfs. Half of my favorite exotics sit gathering dust in my vault because nerfs made them frustrating and unenjoyable to use in every part of the game.
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Right... and they will still sit in the vault gathering dust because sunsetting won’t fix it. “80%” huh, you mean patrols and crucible (and people hate crucible)? Because strikes get raised in powercap every so often, and raids are getting revamped to higher light levels. So I call bs and all our old guns will eventually become obsolete except on dregs. If that sounds like fun to you, then you honestly would eat a trashcan if bungie sold it as a food.
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Speak for yourself. I’d still be happily using Sleeper Simulant and Thunderlord in strikes and open world play. Because the weapons were simply FUN to use. But the nerfs to those weapons CRIPPLED them. So they not only suck in high level content. They suck everywhere because any whisper of a power-fantasy has been drained from them. When was the last time you used an LMG or a linear fusion rifle for any other reason than to fill a bounty? And how much fun did you have doing it?
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Xeno is an LMG, so yeah it’s the top rated endgame gun. I also used komodo when I soloed PoH. You can stop now.
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Xenophage isn’t an LMG...even though Bungie calls it one. LMGs dont fire explosive rounds. Just like Trace rifles aren’t really ARs though the game treats them like they are. Xenophage is actually a belt-fed (auto)cannon. The kind that fires super high caliber (e.g 30 mm) explosive rounds that you find on ships and certain aircraft. Designed to attract armored (and other) vehicles. Which is the reason why Xenophage is an exotic and doesn’t do crit damage like every other LMG in the game.
