[quote]Vanilla D1 and Vanilla D2. Vanilla D1 had almost nothing to do as far as end game (one raid, Nightfall strikes, PVP)....and the progression system was simply awful (Forever 29). Vanilla D2 was a horrible mistake in the other direction. It was gutted to the point where it basically was a campaign shooter. Armor was basically cosmetic. Fixed weapon rolls. Dual primary weapon system ("Two suck ass weapons and a grenade launcher). Our Guardians nerfed to the point were we were slow, weak, and we basically got to use our super once every 15 minutes of game play....and the ammo economy was so bad we were frequently running out of ammo. In short the Devs completely broke the game. They stripped the power-fantasy from the game. The game was designed to limit player power. There was no end-game loot to chase (because the game was designed from the ground up for PVP balance). The end-game PVE was tedious because the weapon system imposed a DPS ceiling on players.....and the PVP was a sad, boring copy of Halo. This game right now is a 1000% better than it was 2 years ago....and in many ways most of the problems that people complain about to this day are the result of the BAD design choices that got baked into the development of the vanilla game (cough....weapon perk tree...cough). If you thing Guardian Games was disappointing, thank God you missed Faction Rally. And as far as Antaeus Wards....that's just Bungie. Bungie just keep STUBBORNLY given Titans overshields, and REFUSES to learn that doing so BREAKS PVP because it gives them an unfair advantage. So we just get stuck in this stupid cycle where Bungie gives Titans these overshields...and then has to nerf them once they (predictably) start making a mess of the Crucible.[/quote] How good was season 10?

This is season 10.

[quote]This is season 10.[/quote] How good IS season 10?

In the grand scheme of seasonal content? Very mediocre. Its better than last year's Season of the Drifter....but is otherwise weaker than any other season IMO. It this season's defense it was forced to carry the burden of Trials....and I believed from day one that bringing Trials back was a mistake. Bandwidth that could have been used to make PVE content, and weapons that could have gone to bolstering the PVE loot pool got siphoned off by Trials. So PVE players got a Season based around a unpopular (and poorly designed) public event....and a loot pool with only 6 weapons in it. OTOH, PVP players got a Trials brought back that never solved the problems of the original trials....and then ushered in a whole new set of problems because of a rushed, poorly designed, and under-resourced loot system. So the view of the Season is getting tarnished by a Trials that was arguably set-up to fail, and I believe isn't salvageable at this point. The play list is just going to implode by the time Season 12 rolls around and Bungie starts fixing **some** of what's broken. But the PVE side was hobbled by the fact that needed resources got diverted in a failed effort to resuscitate Trials.

[quote]In the grand scheme of seasonal content? Very mediocre. Its better than last year's Season of the Drifter....but is otherwise weaker than any other season IMO. It this season's defense it was forced to carry the burden of Trials....and I believed from day one that bringing Trials back was a mistake. Bandwidth that could have been used to make PVE content, and weapons that could have gone to bolstering the PVE loot pool got siphoned off by Trials. So PVE players got a Season based around a unpopular (and poorly designed) public event....and a loot pool with only 6 weapons in it. OTOH, PVP players got a Trials brought back that never solved the problems of the original trials....and then ushered in a whole new set of problems because of a rushed, poorly designed, and under-resourced loot system. So the view of the Season is getting tarnished by a Trials that was arguably set-up to fail, and I believe isn't salvageable at this point. The play list is just going to implode by the time Season 12 rolls around and Bungie starts fixing **some** of what's broken. But the PVE side was hobbled by the fact that needed resources got diverted in a failed effort to resuscitate Trials.[/quote] Why defend a bad season at all? If it’s bad it’s bad. You don’t need to compare it to anything else or defend it. It stands on its own merit, and calling it mediocre doesn’t seem like it would be a controversial opinion. Supposedly Trials has been in development for a year and a half, and came with 5 new weapons so it’s not like it drained much from PVE. The game is both sides, so arguably any content released one side is taking resources from the other. I have been tracking the trials population in weekly threads. It started low 380K, and last week with a new map in the mix it it’s all time low of 171k (-55% of launch) it’s already imploded it just remains to be seen if Bungie can salvage what should be a pinnacle aspirational pvp activity. Outside of Trials the PVE side is also almost universally criticized, and not just for lack of content. The content itself is criticized.

[quote]Why defend a bad season at all?[/quote] Because nothing happens in a vacuum....and its unfair to evaluate this season without taking into account the manpower constraints it was operating under. Bungie can't control losing 1/3 of its workforce in the split with Activision. But it COULD have controlled the problems created by Bringing back Trials....and building this season around a type of content that we let them know we didn't like two years ago. Then---to make matters worse---doubling down on it (heroic ST), and then TRIPLING down on it by forcing us to have to grind it for a weapon quest. Bungie gets consideration for the manpower loss. But they have to take the Big Fat L...and a WTF WERE YOU THINKING.....for the rest. [quote]Supposedly Trials has been in development for a year and a half, and came with 5 new weapons so it’s not like it drained much from PVE.[/quote] Disagree. Don't confuse and conflate the time and energy necessary to sort out the mechanics and tuning of Trials as a PLAYLIST EVENT.....from the resources needed to secure that event from cheaters....and those needed to design the loot system and investment pathways around it. By and large, Bungie nailed the first part. The event PLAYS well...and with the exception of Anomaly...the maps were good choices. Its the security and the loot system that got fumbled....and if you think Bungie spent two years working on those, I've got a bridge to sell you. Shit, Cozmo (IIRC) basically admitted in an interview that designing loot for Trials took away bandwidth that they could have---and would have---used for other things (like Ritual weapons) if they had been able. [quote]Outside of Trials the PVE side is also almost universally criticized, and not just for lack of content. The content itself is criticized.[/quote] Everything this game does gets criticized by someone. That's nothing new. The issue is that the complaints are misplaced. Players are feeling burned out, and that hte game is unrewarding....adn they want to blame the content and bounties for that.... ....when the real source of the problem is a broken progression system....bad player choices....and a broken loot system. People are burned out on bounties because bounties are the most efficient way to level up the Season pass, and the Season artifact (both of which are new mechanics to the game). But the problem is compounded by the fact that players grab bounties...and then farm the same Lost sector over and over and over again to get the bounties done as fast as possible. Rather than simply playing...making a few loadout changes...and letting the bounties take care of themselves. So when they feel burned out and bored...these players dont' look at how they've chosen to play...they just lash out at bungie and blame the game. The progression system is a problem because bounties are also the most efficient way to level up the Seasonal Artifact. So to get to the highest level content you have to deal with a broken, gear-based "Pinnacle" system and its RNG levelling and THEN grind 15-20 levels through the Artifact. NEITHER of which are pleasant or functional grinds. Because all you get is seeing a number go up. A number that only serves to gate content at that point. But the REAL root of all of this is that teh game's LOOT system is broken....and its been broken for the entire life of the game. https://www.light.gg/db/items/3569802112/the-old-fashioned/ Scroll down and look at the list of available perks....which are actually pretty robust by Destiny 2 standards. Look at how many of them in the last 2 overlap. Essentially either doign the same things, or variations of the same things. Three damage perks (Surrounded, Kill Clip, and Explosive rounds) and Three handling perks (Snap shot, Hip-fire grip, and Moving target) in the last column. Three handling perks (Slideshot, Quickdraw, Firmly Planted), one reload perk (Feeding Frenzy) and one Ability Synergy perk (Demotionist) in the colum prior to that. TLDR: THIS IS A LOOT SYSTEM THAT IS INCAPABLE (BY DESIGN) OF GENERATING ANY VERSION OF THIS HAND CANNON THAT PERFORMS SIGNIFICANTLY DIFFERENTLY THAN ANY OTHER. This is because this is a system that was designed for PVP BALANCE, to LIMIT player power in PVE (admitted to in an interview by former Weapons design lead Jon Weisznewski), and keep PVP TTKs within a narrow range. But the fallout is that we've been grinding for what are reskinned versions of the same weapons with the same perks now for THREE YEARS.... ...and that has NOTHING to do with the Seasonal format. ...and the fact that we're here shows it has nothing to do with the type of content. Because Bungie has been throwing an endless parade of things TO DO at us to distract us from the fact that there is VERY LITTLE to chase..... ..and that effort is failing. The game feels unrewarding...because, as a loot based game...IT IS UNREWARDING BECAUSE THERE IS[i] [u]NO LOOT!!. [/u][/i]

[quote][quote]Why defend a bad season at all?[/quote] Because nothing happens in a vacuum....and its unfair to evaluate this season without taking into account the manpower constraints it was operating under. Bungie can't control losing 1/3 of its workforce in the split with Activision. But it COULD have controlled the problems created by Bringing back Trials....and building this season around a type of content that we let them know we didn't like two years ago. Then---to make matters worse---doubling down on it (heroic ST), and then TRIPLING down on it by forcing us to have to grind it for a weapon quest. Bungie gets consideration for the manpower loss. But they have to take the Big Fat L...and a WTF WERE YOU THINKING.....for the rest. [quote]Supposedly Trials has been in development for a year and a half, and came with 5 new weapons so it’s not like it drained much from PVE.[/quote] Disagree. Don't confuse and conflate the time and energy necessary to sort out the mechanics and tuning of Trials as a PLAYLIST EVENT.....from the resources needed to secure that event from cheaters....and those needed to design the loot system and investment pathways around it. By and large, Bungie nailed the first part. The event PLAYS well...and with the exception of Anomaly...the maps were good choices. Its the security and the loot system that got fumbled....and if you think Bungie spent two years working on those, I've got a bridge to sell you. Shit, Cozmo (IIRC) basically admitted in an interview that designing loot for Trials took away bandwidth that they could have---and would have---used for other things (like Ritual weapons) if they had been able. [quote]Outside of Trials the PVE side is also almost universally criticized, and not just for lack of content. The content itself is criticized.[/quote] Everything this game does gets criticized by someone. That's nothing new. The issue is that the complaints are misplaced. Players are feeling burned out, and that hte game is unrewarding....adn they want to blame the content and bounties for that.... ....when the real source of the problem is a broken progression system....bad player choices....and a broken loot system. People are burned out on bounties because bounties are the most efficient way to level up the Season pass, and the Season artifact (both of which are new mechanics to the game). But the problem is compounded by the fact that players grab bounties...and then farm the same Lost sector over and over and over again to get the bounties done as fast as possible. Rather than simply playing...making a few loadout changes...and letting the bounties take care of themselves. So when they feel burned out and bored...these players dont' look at how they've chosen to play...they just lash out at bungie and blame the game. The progression system is a problem because bounties are also the most efficient way to level up the Seasonal Artifact. So to get to the highest level content you have to deal with a broken, gear-based "Pinnacle" system and its RNG levelling and THEN grind 15-20 levels through the Artifact. NEITHER of which are pleasant or functional grinds. Because all you get is seeing a number go up. A number that only serves to gate content at that point. But the REAL root of all of this is that teh game's LOOT system is broken....and its been broken for the entire life of the game. https://www.light.gg/db/items/3569802112/the-old-fashioned/ Scroll down and look at the list of available perks....which are actually pretty robust by Destiny 2 standards. Look at how many of them in the last 2 overlap. Essentially either doign the same things, or variations of the same things. Three damage perks (Surrounded, Kill Clip, and Explosive rounds) and Three handling perks (Snap shot, Hip-fire grip, and Moving target) in the last column. Three handling perks (Slideshot, Quickdraw, Firmly Planted), one reload perk (Feeding Frenzy) and one Ability Synergy perk (Demotionist) in the colum prior to that. TLDR: THIS IS A LOOT SYSTEM THAT IS INCAPABLE (BY DESIGN) OF GENERATING ANY VERSION OF THIS HAND CANNON THAT PERFORMS SIGNIFICANTLY DIFFERENTLY THAN ANY OTHER. This is because this is a system that was designed for PVP BALANCE, to LIMIT player power in PVE (admitted to in an interview by former Weapons design lead Jon Weisznewski), and keep PVP TTKs within a narrow range. But the fallout is that we've been grinding for what are reskinned versions of the same weapons with the same perks now for THREE YEARS.... ...and that has NOTHING to do with the Seasonal format. ...and the fact that we're here shows it has nothing to do with the type of content. Because Bungie has been throwing an endless parade of things TO DO at us to distract us from the fact that there is VERY LITTLE to chase..... ..and that effort is failing. The game feels unrewarding...because, as a loot based game...IT IS UNREWARDING BECAUSE THERE IS[i] [u]NO LOOT!!. [/u][/i][/quote] You (royal) don’t defend bad content because it’s bad. You (royal) criticize bad content because it’s bad. That’s not misplaced. They managed to turn out two decent seasons (not great) with the same less workforce, but the very mediocre one suddenly it’s time to act like that’s a reasonable excuse for a major studio with massive resources. You’re telling me 5 cookie cutter weapons and armor reskins drained the studio to the point where they couldn’t manage better than very mediocre for a season? I’ll trade you bridges. There is plenty of loot in Eververse.

But context defines what is bad....otherwise it just becomes a contest of who can shout their personal preferences the loudest. Yes. This same workfore we (royal...sorry couldn't resist...) think produced two season that were better this year. But that same workforce wasn't trying to return ToO to the game, produce loot for it, and try to police cheaters. [quote]You’re telling me 5 cookie cutter weapons and armor reskins drained the studio to the point where they couldn’t manage better than very mediocre for a season? I’ll trade you bridges.[/quote] Doesn't have to drain the entire studio. Just the studios ability to make LOOT....in a loot game. And since at least two of the most senior people who make weapons LEFT Bungie a year ago after decades (between the two of them) at the company? You bet your ass it did. Because I guarentee you it wasn't just Josh Hamrick and Jon Weisznewski who left. Because people in positions of leadership, tend to hire-and-promote people who THINK like they do. So Bungie (Smith) probably had to get into the Sandbox and Weapons Teams and really clean house. Otherwise, all having those two leaving would accomplish is replacing them with people who thought like they did....and would do the same things to the game. [quote]There is plenty of loot in Eververse.[/quote] There is nothing in the Eververse that I consider loot. Because there is not a damn thing that makes you powerful, or alters how the game plays. I find it fascinating how this community (royal....sorry....lol) always treas cosmetics like their loot whenever they are in Eververse....but the second they're in the game and earnable we (royal.....man I'm better than this....lol) turn up our noses at it. "I have no interest in play Dresstiny......" [b]...and how quickly we forget and take for granted MAJOR quality of life upgrades and new game play mechanics like Armor 2.0 and Seasonal mods system. [/b]

Hey vanilla D1 =>> Loot cave. Need I say more? Plus VoG, still the best Raid (in my opinion). The grind for the Gjally (got that one almost immediately) and Mytho (took me a couple years of weekly running on all 3 chars to get it) at least the grind was fun! Plus Icebreaker with infinite rounds. Did you really need another gun?

I remember in the beta they had to nerf that spinning thing in the first mission because we were so slow.

For the first time in a long time a post of yours I can upvote. The 1 thing I would add as a caveat is that although the game is 1000% better than Vanilla D2, it is by no means in a good place.