Didn't most of the forsaken changes like the new gun loadouts come directly from the summit though?

IMO no, the loadout changes no one asked for. In fact before D2 live stream there was feedback and a hell of a lot of it on how gamers didn't want the loadout changes. Bungie knew this way before the idea of having the summit came about.

What do you mean no one asked for it? I thought everybody was advocating to go back to D1s system instead of the double primary system. In addition I thought it was universally accepted that the current loadout added in forsaken was a significant improvement over the double primary system.

No no, I was referring to that no one asked D1 loadouts to be changed in the first place, and Bungie didn't even bother to get any legit feedback about it. They just did it and it took them a year that in no way it should have ever taken that long for any company to get the loadouts you have now.

Ah ok. I see your point. But I would like to say in a general sense game dev's should not be purely shackled by community feedback and they should try out new ideas and flex their creativity. This specific instance with loadouts just failed unfortunately. It had some good reasons for it but they ended up being outweighed by "fun".

I agree, but I believe it should work both ways. IMO it seems this game is being built more so for Bungie and the streamers they cater to and that to me is just wrong.

Can you define how the game is being catered toward streamers? Is it the Easter eggs and puzzles that allow them to make guides on? Also does streamer vs youtuber make a difference to you? I consider them to be the same. IMO streamers echo the thoughts and wants of the masses and/or their opinions about what they game should be generally line up with the community at large. If people didn't agree with the streamers then they wouldn't subscribe or watch the videos. And I want to specify that the 2 youtubers I am mainly familiar with are datto and mtashed and I consider those 2 to be the experts in PvE and PvP respectively. When those 2 put out videos about their thoughts on the state of the game and their ideas to fix them I typically agree and would venture to say the majority of their subscriber base agrees thereby giving them a voice worth a good 200,000 people or more (I haven't checked their sub counts recently)

Do you know how Halo trilogy did so well? IMO it had nothing to do with any streamer, Youtuber, Content creator. It had to do with the company putting the effort into creating what they did. IMO they did an excellent job with just about everything in Halo considering the time and what they had to work with. This means the company was actually working together to make something the player base would enjoy. Yes, they had their issues back then, but it didn't stop them from creating a great game. Reason being there was passion put in the game that Destiny doesn't have. Anyone that has ever really paid any attention to the detail work that was put into Halo's sounds, visual effects, movements, gameplay, can see the passion that was put into in just about every aspect of it. Now, look at D2 versus D1 when it comes to that last paragraph. Anyone that has been paying attention can see a huge difference. Example and this is just one of the sounds, not that big of a deal to some but annoying as hell to me. The hunters jump literally sounds like a broken whoopee cushion. Then there things that made D1 fun, like the Guardian's movement. Example, it's a small thing but it annoys me especially when something like the Cabal knocking you off a bridge lets say, and you can't glide back on to it because the glide was cut short. In D1 I had that option to try to make it back. Paying attention to Detail when creating a game is a (huge thing) when it comes to making a game and the smallest things that are enjoyable being removed from a game has its effects on the experience of the game. You might be thinking to yourself what does this have to do with streamers etc... Well, Bungie scrapped D2 among many other things that went wrong that they didn't want us to know but we found out anyway's, they thought as long as we get this out the door and they pay for it we're good in spite how bad the game was released. It's just simply them saying we got our money and that is all that matters. Bungie leaving themselves no time at all to create D2 properly caused this. They came up with all kinds of excuses or saying this nonsense that this is a "friends game", then they went on trying to say this is a "collectors game". It's neither and we all know this. So, knowing they got themselves in a jam because of their deliberate poor actions they pushed out a half backed base game so they could meet their contracts deadline. Well, here comes the summit. Bungie lost 74% of the player base in the first 2 months D2 released. Now they are worried so what was the best way to try to get gamers back? Streamers. Funny thing about it? a hell of a lot of streamers were literally talking trash about the company and game and when they came back they acted as if nothing really happened, saying nonsense on how good Warmind was and blah blah blah. Warmind was weak at best. All Bungie did was pull a D1 Y1, half backed expansions and used the streamers to sell Warmind just like they did with forsaken. Yes, Forsaken is a little better, but not much at all when there is no loot to chase. Activision showering them with "gifts" must have done wonders because there is no way in hell if them streamers cared about the player base as they claim they do that this progression system would have been suggested at the community summit for forsaken. Longer story short? yes, there might be a couple that care, but most are in it to make a living and the way most streamers go about it shows they only care about themselves and what Activision will offer them to keep making a living.

Forsaken really appears to be tweaked toward giving streamer a ton of little secrets and intricacies to steadily produce content. Obviously a ton of douchey streamers just want the money any way they can get it. For even the decent ones, whether they are aware of it or not, the streamers' opinion of the game is heavily influenced by how much money the game makes them. So the streamers are happy because their revenue is stabilized or increased and they rave about the game because they have so much to talk about. Players see the streamers raving and see their youtube feed flooded with Forsaken videos and think, "look at how much there is to do!" Many players don't have the time, patience or exploratory or puzzle solving skills to find well hidden cat statues or do an ascendent challenge. They end up having to watch a content creator to make their experience less of a hassle, so now the triangle of developer/influencer/player is cemented. I think it's just a simple fact that most players can't put in a quarter of the time that content creators can. When it appears that the developer listens to a person that plays 12/7 about time investment and reward distribution rather than the average player, a lot of resentment builds. There is a reason only content creators were invited to the summit. Bungle is well aware of this relatively new, triangular relationship and they deliberately manipulated it and made it stronger and more necessary. This has caused a lot of resentment to build. Bungle knew that these drop rates would be seen as "the grind is back" by streamers because they play 40-80 hours a week. They would happily make videos about the weapons and exotics they got, players would see them and want to try them themselves, but also, a lot of players ended up getting frustrated because they can't put in that kind of time. Resentment for the developer and the influencer grows. I think this is what the OP is trying to say, with the elegance of a reindeer on rollerskates. I too feel like Forsaken was made for the streamers to be sold again to us in a form intended to create a symbiotic relationship. I don't like it. To be fair, Forsaken has a lot to offer, and I like secrets and challenges. However, the loot pool is, what, 60% of that of vanilla D1? Exotics are back to D1 drop rates or worse, and there are fewer exotic quests and Xur no longer sells current exotics. Duplicates are rampant in exotics AND legendaries, and power progression just seems to refuse to go back to RoI, when most people agreed it was at its best. These are pretty much empirical facts, and those that want to say "It's like oldschool Destiny and I like it," you're just wrong. You may like it, but it's mostly worse than even vanilla D1. We've got arguably the best content this game has seen, both in quality and quantity. As usual, any step forward must be accompanied by one or more steps back and just as many sideways. This triangular relationship of developer/influencer/player is here to stay. I don't agree with boycotting streamers en masse. You can look at them as parasites. Many of them are, or they're at least unscrupulous opportunists. You can also look at them as people that make a decent/good/great living spending insane hours doing what many of you would love to do for a living. Some of them, some of the ones that BUNGLE cares about, are. Datto and Byf are great, passionate guys, and I crack up just at the sound of Aztecross's Louisiana drawl soaked rants. There has to be a way to cater to the players first while still keeping content creators happy. Except for Rick "English is my second English language" Khakis. Ugh. Subject/verb agreement is a thing. Look into it. It should be in your elementary school textbooks. "There is tons of..." aaagh! Shut the -blam!- up, you kill two of your brain cells and one of mine every time you...never again, Khakis! Get out of my youtube! If half of your job is talking, git gud at it. That goes for all of you streamers. '"Ann-tie-oh-pee." Seriously, none of you saw Wonder Woman? You're on the internet already, if you don't know how to pronounce a word, have the intellectual curiosity to look it up. Quit making me feel dumber for listening to you when you say things like, "grenader" instead of, "gren-uh-deer." You might enrich your life by learning about mythology, science, and history if you look up the names Bungle uses. <Side rant> Anyway, for now, maybe instead of boycotting streamers, use them. It seems like they're the ones Bungle is listening to, so let them know your concerns. POLITELY. Sure, it's their job, but the ones like Datto, Byf, MessaSean, Ms5000Watts, care deeply about this game. They also are smart enough to know that for every one of them there are a quarter million of you. They all expressed deep, extreme grievances throughout the entirety of D2 Y1. It wasn't just because their golden goose was anemic, they were saddened and depressed because of what had been done to something they love a lot. They're not all shills, and until Bungle figures out how to balance this weird relationship (if they ever choose to. I'm certainly not hopeful.), it might be one of our best advantages to sway Bungle's action and direction. PS- Odin, obviously this isn't really a response directed toward your comment. We're frequently of a similar mindset, and occasionally a coment be you gets me thinking and occasionally gets me rambling.

Man I wish I'd read this before trying desperately (and failing) to say similar. Well -blam!-ing done!

It was a lot to read :) A lot of what you said I do agree with but, one thing you said stuck out the most to me. [quote]There has to be a way to cater to the players first while still keeping content creators happy.[/quote] As far as being a business I understand to an extent, but there is a fine line between the 2. Back in the day companies sold a lot of the games well. So how did they do it back then knowing streamers weren't a thing? It was because the game was being created for quality and quantity, making a game for their player base. Meaning, they actually had to put the effort in. With Streamers, it's saying we don't, they will sell the game for use in spite of the lack of quality and quantity and that is bad business. Look at what happen to the base game. Bungie lost a huge portion of the player base when D2 released in the first 2 months. So, I have to disagree with the part "has" to be a way to keep content creators happy. If they want their money, then they need to put the effort into it, not the company trying to please them to make a buck.

[quote]All the brainwashed kids that listen to streamers are a problem with gaming today. It's really no different than how is it is to get people to pre-order a game because if it looks good, it must be good right?[/quote] I would say they are a factor, but the small amount of people listening to streamers is not why gaming is in a "bad" place. It's in a bad place because most of gaming is played by casuals and casuals don't give a shit about poor tactics like extra money for dlc's or preordering half-assed games. The video game industry generated $36 billion in 2017. Obviously studios aren't going to change any of their shitty tactics when people are spending more on video games than ever before. This is a consumer problem, not a 'streamers suck problem'.

No, it's not all because of streamers. I was just referring to how they have their part in it and companies play off of them. Think about this for a moment. Bungie said streamers are our community leaders. That right there told me that this company has lost their mind thinking streamers know what's best for us.

Why was it just streamers there is what gets me, and it would of been nice for bungie to invite some of the posters on the forums too, some of them would have good ideas fir the game

Yep kids are brainwashed. On bf4 I was doing some pub stomping in a jet before and some guy messaged on the receiving end saying korpus is better than you I'm thinking to myself how is that relevant in any way to what's going on here and he said I'll get korpus to 1v1 you so he did and korpus starts messaging me saying i was talking shit about him so I blocked them both and was just left confused 😂

Now I'm confused. What the hell are you talking about? And what's a korpus?