[quote]All the kids with no skill hide behind this weapon[/quote] Really? Tell that to the Titan I shot out of the air with it last nigh from auto rifle range. He saw me coming....jumped up....tried to juke me while it was charging....and I still shot him out of the air. Tell that to Hunters I've killed with it at shotgun range. Or the one's I've shot out of the air, as they fell from the apex of their jump. Tell that to the Warlock who I banked a shot aournd a corner to kill. Tell that to the Hunter with a bow that I out-dueled. He got in the first shot....I dove for cover....pre-charged...and then popped out and burned him down before he got of his second shot.

😲 you a [b]big[/b] girl! 😂👏

Actually I’m a guy who is probably old enough to be your dad. Want to try again? So yes, I am a Grown Damn Man. Thanks. Word of advice. Being a misogynist is bad enough in terms of making look like an ass. Being one to someone who’s a guy, because you were to lazy to figure out if the person your going to disrespect is actually a woman first.... ...makes you look like a stupid ass. Bad plan.

Are you saying any of that is remotely difficult? Lmao

Is throwing a football forty yards down the field and hitting a receiver in full stride in the chest with a football "remotely difficult"? Is catching a feeder toss at second-base barehanded and then turning a double-play while avowing getting taken out by the sliding runner "remotely" difficult? Because the examples that I gave use the same timing and target tracking skills. Which is why----as a former football and baseball player---[b]I'm very good at them. [/b] Different weapons test different skills. Just like different sports test different skills. Fusion rifles---because of their long charge up times and lack of hit-scanning---test your ability to time your shots, and lead/track targets in motion. Anyone who is an experienced fusion rilfe player in this game will tell you that those are not easy shots with ANY fusion rifle....and the long charge up time for Sleeper makes them even more challenging. Which is why Sleeper was a NON-FACTOR in Destiny PVP until Gambit showed up. Its a factor now because the design of Gambit arenas, and the ability to ambush unsuspecting enemies from long-range, leverages what Sleeper does well......and reduces the significance of the weapons weakenesses (slow handling, long charge up time.) But engaging targets in motion requires you to overcome those weaknesses with skill. So the closer you get to a target in motion, the harder the weapon becomes to use and use well.

You can do this with any gun, the fact that you can one shot a guardian by hitting their big toe with the sleeper makes it really no skill. Do you have skill to lead your shots? Sure. Can you outplay your opponent? Sure, but the hit box and kill potential of the sleeper makes it too easy for people. Gambit is a sleeper requirement game type, most of the time you're up against 4 sleepers and most of the time you lose.

You can do that with any gun. But those gun are hit scanned, and they fire the moment you pull the trigger. So you don’t have to allow for projectile travel time. You don’t have to allow for charge up time, and the delay between when you pull the trigger, and when the weapon actually fires. So making those shots with an auto-rifle or a hand cannon are vastly easier than making them with a fusion rifle. Just because a weapon doesn’t require you to get a headshot doesn’t mean there is “no skill” required in its use. If Sleeper were that easy to use it would have dominated the meta in the Crucible from the moment it entered the game. But it didn’t. There is a very clear reason why you never saw it in pvp until Gambit came into the game. And nerfing it won’t solve the problem your having with it. Bungie could BREAK Sleeper, and the people complaining would just find themselves dying to Whisper of the Worm and Two-Tailed Fox. And they’d be back here whining about them and demanding that they be nerfed to. Rather than they simply learn how to use cover properly.

It's not in Crucible because heavy ammo does not drop as often as it does in Gambit. One person from both teams is allotted heavy ammo and it spawns every few minutes. If you have PVE perks that drop Heavy Ammo or re spawn heavy ammo then the option to abuse Sleeper is Viable. I use cover all the time vs a player with sleeper, sometimes I win sometimes I lose. More often than not I will lose. The beam from the sleeper has a big hit box and travels at the speed of light, as opposed to having to hit a head shot with a sniper to counter (which is more impressive and a smaller hitbox). I honestly have no idea how Bungie can adjust to this, or if it even is able to be fixed. This is a PVEVP game type so its going to be used a lot. Thankfully, I don't work at Bungie so it's not my problem to solve, I just play my 3 games and get out of laser tag.

[quote]It's not in Crucible because heavy ammo does not drop as often as it does in Gambit. [/quote] ROLFMAO. Now you just revealed that you have no idea what you're talking about. Main Ingredient was one of the most popular power weapons in the Crucible until the team shot meta made it too risky to try to close to its optimum range. Then shotguns took over because----if you were going to get that close----Legend of Acrius was easier to use. Sleeper wasn't used for the same reason that Sleeper was NEVER used in Destiny 1. Its the slowest-handling, slowest firing weapon in the game. Its long charge up time leaves you exposed....and that slow-handling and long charge up make it very difficult to engage fast, unpredictably moving targets. So the only way to use it is as a long range sniper weapon....and sniper rifles are easier to use since you don't have to allow for a charge up time [quote]I use cover all the time vs a player with sleeper, sometimes I win sometimes I lose. More often than not I will lose. .[/quote] You're losing because you're getting outplayed. 1. Unless you're engaging that player with YOUR OWN heavy weapon, you're at a disadvantage that has nothing to with Sleeper itself. 2. Unless you are engaging that player in the OPTIMUM RANGE of your heavy weapon, you are at a disadvantage that has nothing to do with Sleeper. [quote]as opposed to having to hit a head shot with a sniper to counter (which is more impressive and a smaller hitbox). [/quote] ...and there's your problem. When I invade, I have no interest in "impressing you" or anyone else with my "skill". I have 30 seconds to create as much death-and-chaos as I can....in a situation where I'm at a 4-to-1 disadvantage. My goal is to kill you QUICKLY. So that I minimize the chances of one of your team mates intervening and taking away my advantage. As well as put you down fast, so that I can move on to taking out the next target. When I am invaded, I have no interest in impressing you or anyone else with my skill. I have 30 seconds to locate and engage a target that is not showing up on my radar...and (if he's smart) is using cover and the chaos created by AI enemies to shield his movements. So I may only get a quick glimpse of him, or only have a short time that I'm aware of where he is, while he's distratcted or trying to close to the range of his weapon....to take him out. So once again, I'm looking to kill QUICKLY so that I can get back to the business of banking motes or taking down my Primeval. Take Sleeper out of my hands, and I will simply move to the NEXT-fastest, NEXT-most efficient way of killing you. IF the fights at close range, I'm going to be shoving a shotgun in your face. Because my goal is to WIN....not impress. So I am not going to be fighting you with a primary weapon or a precision weapon unless I LITERALLY have no other choice.....and if that happens I'm hauling out Ace of Spades and using its bonus damage bullets. As we used to say in baseball, "[i]There are no pictures on the scorecard. Just numbers. " [/i] This game isn't Rainbow Six.....its a BATTLE ARENA.

I stopped reading at: "Its the slowest-handling, slowest firing weapon in the game. Its long charge up time leaves you exposed....and that slow-handling and long charge up make it very difficult to engage fast, unpredictably moving targets" For someone who is a sleeper "Pro" you sound like you're comparing it to a "Special Weapon" rather than a "POWER Weapon". I also read this while writing my comment, and it almost contradicts your slowest weapon in the game comment: "Take Sleeper out of my hands, and I will simply move to the NEXT-fastest, NEXT-most efficient way of killing you. IF the fights at close range, I'm going to be shoving a shotgun in your face." You're still defending a weapon in gambit that really takes 0 skill to use, perch up where you spawn and pick people off across the map. When the opposing team finds out where you are by tracking the laser you have already charged up another blast to kill someone else.

There are no power weapons in the game. Regardless of what term Bungie wants to use, we are back to the D1 paradigm of special weapons and HEAVY weapons. With the exception a few outliers put in the Heavy slot because of their ability to do MASSIVE PVE damage ( e.g. Whisper of The Worm....and Bungie having to regulate their ammo economy harshly) all Heavy weapons are OHK-to-the-body in PVP: Sleeper. Rockets. Grenade Launchers. Swords Special weapons have the ability to OHK with limitations. Shotguns require to be at very close range. Slug shotguns will do it at close range, but require a head shot. Fusion rifles will let you kill out to short mid-range but require you to time your shots/track your shots well to allow for weapon charge up, and beam travel. Sniper rifles require you to get a head shot. Sleeper is an EXOTIC HEAVY WEAPON. Someone who is using it is having to commit two major choices to its use. He gives up his heavy slot....and he gives up his exotic weapon slot for it. So a host of other great weapons that he could use are no longer available to him. I don't have to hit you in the head with a grenade to kill you....and if I have an Edge transit with Proximity detonation....I don't even have to HIT YOU with it to kill you. I don't have to hit you in the head with a tracking rocket to kill. I don't even have to aim it precisely. I just have to let it lock on....and the tracking will do the rest. You'll never see it or hear it coming unless I'm at close range, AND you're looking at me when I fire it. I sure as hell don't have to hit you in the head to kill you with a sword. [quote]You're still defending a weapon in gambit that really takes 0 skill to use, perch up where you spawn and pick people off across the map. When the opposing team finds out where you are by tracking the laser you have already charged up another blast to kill someone else.[/quote] No. YOU"RE fighting the design of the game. You want this game to be an extension of the Crucible where everyone fighting it out with primaries, and other precision weapons. That's NOT what this game is. If you want to play the Crucible....go play the Crucible. PvP in Gambit is OPEN-WORLD PVP. Its fast, unbalanced, and brutal. Its not a test of "skill". It is a test of BUILD STRENGTH (which is why level advantage is left on for pvp) and TACTICS. This is a game----by the nature of the design of the arenas----rewards long-range ambush tactics, and engaging in PVP with fast-killing weapons and abilities. This is not some little comp shooter. Its a BATTLE ARENA....and the win goes to whoever makes BEST USE of the tools the game gives us. ...and in the case of PVP. IF I'M INVOLVED IN A 'FAIR' FIGHT? I've made a MISTAKE. With your attitude, you have to break HALF the weapons in the ARMORY, and NERF all the player abilities into the ground before you'd stop having problems..... ...and then we'd be right back in the same HOLE this game was in last year.

You're missing everything, you're focusing on so many different things you're falling off topic. This is about invading, and creating a PVP environment. You invade, you have an over shield, you essentially have an NPC army assisting you. You take out your Sleeper that takes up an exotic slot and a heavy weapon slot (which has no bearing with a gun like that). You stand still you take aim at the guy who has the most motes, you charge up your weapon and he's dead. You essentially entered a portal, and pressed one button while standing still. With this tactic you can get close to 3-4 kills if the other team doesn't have their own sleeper. This is Overpowered and deters Gambit game play, that is all I am saying. I am not saying to change or nerf or buff the weapon. I am saying that I get my three games in and then get out, and I am sure others do as well. Bungie will handle this the way they see fit, and if they don't gambit will die faster than curse of Osiris.

I'm not missing anything. I'm pointing out that you are trying to fight the REALITY of the game's design....and when you go to war with Reality, Reality ALWAYS wins. You want this game to be the Crucible....and its NOT...and its never GOING to be. 1. This is OPEN-WORLD PVP. Which means it is not shooter-gamer PVP...it is MMO-and-RPG gamer PVP. Step into it with an underlevelled character or an "inefficient" build....and you will get wrecked. ...and no one will care or feel sorry for you. 2. This game is NOT tuned to make your 1v1 with an Invader "balanced", "fair" , or a "test of skill. IT IS TUNED TO GIVE THAT ONE INVADER A WAY TO PRIORITIZE TARGETS AND A FIGHTING CHANCE AGAINST **FOUR** OPPONENTS WHO MAY MOUNT A COORDINATED DEFENSE AGAINST HIM. 3. That Invader is on a 30 second timer....after whch he gets YANKED backed to his arena. Expecting him to wander around an arena and "hope" to run into an opposing player is unreasonable. To expect him to NOT resort to the fastest-and-most-efficient means of killing in the game because of that timer AND the 4-to-1 disadvantages is also unreasonable. If you want PVP that is about 1v1s and tests of shooting accuracy....go play The Crucible. That's what that is for. You are going to break half the armory and the ENTIRE game trying to turn this game into something you want....and what it was NEVER intended to be.

I do not want this to be crucible, I never said that. I do not even want them to fix it because I could care less. What you seem to be missing and wasting time and energy on is the point I am trying to make. Sleeper use in Gambit takes 0 skill to use, if this game type is built around the use of sleeper(like you're saying), then just give us a sleeper spawn like a scorch cannon spawn. Your use of capital letters and ellipses don't prove anything, you're basically telling me that the sleeper is meant for this game type and if it is then so be it. It doesn't change the fact that it makes gambit unplayable/non enjoyable. You are the minority in this aspect, and Bungie will most likely do something about it. Enjoy it while it lasts.

[i]Reality isn't whatever you say it is, kid.[/i] I'm not "missing" anything. I'm not "wasting time and energy". YOU just keep pounding your shoe on the table and insisting that Sleeper takes "no skill to use"....and acting as if the goal of the game is to be "fair" where the PVP is concerned. ...and I keep telling you that you are WRONG. I am telling you that you are wrong, because my PVP experience is much broader than what this game offers..... ....and if you think Gambit's PVP is nasty, unfair, and "lacks skill". For the Love of God, stay out of The Dark Zone in the Dvision.....or most PVP that's in MMOs while you're at it. [quote] It doesn't change the fact that it makes gambit unplayable/non enjoyable. [/quote] That is not a "fact". That is your personal **opinion** Which has more to do with your stubborn refusal to accept the nature of the game for what it is. Yes, if you show up to a football game, and want to play baseball.....you are going to struggle, and probably not have very much fun. ...and no one is going to want hear you complain about how it doesn't take skill to play football because the game doesn't require you to have to hit a curveball. Gambit was created to provide a particular type of experience....and you simply don't LIKE that experience. That's unfortunate.

Not sure where in my post implies that I am a kid? You fail to accept the "Reality" that the sleeper takes 0 skill to use. It also creates the environment that I described that is shared by a Majority of players. Gambit is a great game when it is played without laser tag. You put a weapon in the game that acts like a cross map super, without having to use your super is at best broken. Unfortunately, your broad PVP experience applies no merit here, as you said so yourself this is not a PVP game type. P.S. I do really enjoy smashing people like you in Gambit who use and abuse the Sleeper Simulant.

[quote]Not sure where in my post implies that I am a kid? [/quote] 1. The fact that you keep arguing that the World is defined by your opinions of it. I [b]It isn't[/b] . 2. The fact that you keep arguing that I should accept your (biased) opinion as if it carried the force and reliability of fact. [b]It doesn't. [/b] 3. The fact that you keep arguing that a game that is designed to provide ONE type of experience should HAVE TO obey the conventions and Rules of games that are designed to provide a entirely different kind of experience. [b]It doesn't. [/b] 4. The fact that you keep insisting that I'm wrong because I disagree with you [b]I'm not. [/b] Those are the things that YOUNG people tend to do. Because they can't put their own subjective viewpoint and feelings about something aside....and look at the situation from other points of view. Something that comes easier when you're older....and you have more life experience. The bottom line is that Gambit's PVP is designed to replicate the open-world PVP that you get in MMOs and other RPGs. So it is not going to obey the FPS game tropes you want it to. Because it is not---by design---supposed to create that experience. TLDR: Break Sleeper? I'll be back with Two-Tailed Fox. Break Two-Tailed Fox. I'll be back with Whisper of The Worm. Break that I'll be back with my tracking Bad Omen. Break that, and I'll be back with my tracking Haake Rockets. Break those, and I'll be back with a fast firing sniper rifle and Lunafaction boots. Break those, and I'll be back with legendary linear fusion rifles and Lunafaction boots. There are a DOZEN different builds I can come up with that will do exactly what Sleeper does...and make the same players just as miserable. ...and as long as the game rewards long-range ambush tactics...and killing opponents as quickly as possible. You're not going to take that reality out of Gambit without either breaking Gambit....or breaking Destiny's sandbox.

This debate is about sleeper. Since you want facts I will give you facts. 1. It takes 1 Shot to Kill someone. 2. It has no fall off damage. 3. The projection of the laser moves faster than you can adjust. Like you could with a tracking rocket. 4. It is the most used heavy gun in gambit. 5. It can pierce through and kill multiple guardians. 6. It has a magazine of 4 so reloading is not necessary. (unlike 2 tailed fox) 7. The hit box is so large it is forgiving, if you graze someone's shoulder. Those are not opinions those are facts, the opinion that I share about sleeper and it being in gambit is shared by a majority of people. If it wasn't Bungie wouldn't have nerfed it already. As for your facts, let me educate you little man. 1. The fact that you keep arguing that the World is defined by your opinions of it. I It isn't. Not once did I mention about the world being defined by my opinions, were talking about sleeper and gambit and you seem to want to create a fact out of thin air? Hilarious. 2. The fact that you keep arguing that I should accept your (biased) opinion as if it carried the force and reliability of fact. It doesn't. I never once stated that you need to accept my biased opinion, I was simply debating and defending my opinion just as you were yours. You assuming that everyone's opinion is the gold standard and needs to be accepted tells me you grew up without the ability to voice your own opinion and were forced to accept someone else's. 3. The fact that you keep arguing that a game that is designed to provide ONE type of experience should HAVE TO obey the conventions and Rules of games that are designed to provide a entirely different kind of experience. It doesn't. This made up fact makes no sense, people can play the game how they want. I simply state (and I feel like I am talking to a wall here with how much I repeat myself to a "grown man") that the sleeper is a 0 skill use gun in a game type that should require some skill. Now if you want to tell me that gambit is not intended to incorporate any type of pvp skill into its archetype then I will agree that the sleeper is fine just the way it is. 4. The fact that you keep insisting that I'm wrong because I disagree with you I'm not. I never said you were wrong, again I defend my own opinion based on what I have seen, and heard from other people. And your number 4 contradicts yourself.

Reality isn't whatever you say it is kid. ...and I'm not required to work within how you want to frame (limit) this discussion. Within the scope of the experience that Bungie set out to create when they made Gambit, what you are asking for is unreasonable....and it cannot be achieved without breaking half the sandbox. Because what is frustrating you about Sleeper....will frustrate you about the NEXT-MOST-EFFICIENT heavy weapon that will step up to replace it. Rinse and Repeat. So you will eventually be forced to either 1. Accept that Sleeper isn't the problem, and change your approach to play. 2. Accept that Sleeper isn't the problem, and quit playing Gambit. 3. Continue to complain about each of its successors as "OP"....and nerf/break them as well....and by the time this community is done theory-crafting you'll have to break half the ARMORY. Which is how we got the disaster that was vanilla Destiny 2. As Bungie tried to accommodate all the nerf requests....and we wound up with a game no one wanted to play.

Reality isn't whatever you say it is kid. This is where you have a problem. Sleeper is not like the next most efficient heavy weapon, it has no equal or counter. No other heavy weapon has all the facts that I laid out for it. Like I continuously keep stating and it keeps going in one ear and out the other. I play Gambit only for the powerful reward and then I don't play it. Gambit is a PVE motes fest until Laser Tag ensues, then its whoever can hit their laser first. I think its time for you to accept that the gun your using and abusing requires no effort to use, and will eventually destroy gambit in the future. So congrats!