"Oh its for PvP weeehhh" shaddup it has damn wallhacks how is it not for PvP! -Aztecross gaming

It's entire perk set-up barring the bonus Taken damage is very PvP oriented. Wallhacks + Overpenetration Arrows are straight up PvP material. EDIT: Also it being a 'PvE weapon' doesn't excuse it having detrimental bugs.

False. Hardlight has a similar perk that lets it overpenetrate targets with its shots. Perks like that are pointless in crucible. Unless you actually think that little video Bungie showed with the Wish-Ender getting a double kill is something players will be doing consistently. If so you're the only one that's delusional.

Just because something CAN be used in PvP doesn't make it PvP-"oriented." This is why Thorn got nerfed - it was a Raid-tier HC that could shred ads (multi-overpenetration) and counter the hide-and-seek mechanic many enemies have (DoT), worthy of the quest required to get it, but scrubs with bad aim used it in the Crucible to shoot opponents in the foot and let the poison do all the work, and it became so abused the weapon itself was watered down to the point of being unusable in PvE. Destiny is a PvE game with a PvP add-on component, but Crucible isn't what the game's about - D1Y1 did this right, where Raid gear gave [u]PvE-only[/u] bonuses (extra damage to Oracles/Hive, armor perks during Oversoul) and left PvP to player skill rather than rare weapons with cheesy perks. The very fact that players need to rely on poison/DoT, wallhacks, Invis, etc. in the first place rather than just learning to shoot straight is proof that Crucible is more about gear advantage and cheap tricks than skill, and making a few PvE guns that don't cater to that nonsense is fine...not every piece of gear or ability was built for the Crucible. The fact that players get Raid/PvE guns and immediately say "This isn't good enough in the Crucible" is utter nonsense - that's not what the gun was designed for, and just once I'd like to see Bungie hold their ground and say "This gun wasn't meant for that, use a different one."

I mean Bungie has stated several times the two go hand in hand but whatever you say....

Words and actions say different things - "hand in hand" is Destiny code for "build it for PvE, nerf it for PvP." They're constantly trying to separate the two, very specifically by adding new weapons that COULD be PvE-oriented masterpieces, but then the PvP crowd get ahold of them and figure out some way to abuse them, so they get toned down to be "fair" in Crucible and "sub-par" for the activities they were intended for. The whole cycle could be stopped/fixed if they'd just admit some things are for PvE, some things are for PvP, and figure out some way to keep them separate. So far, the cycle has only ever gone one way - Crucible changes always make PvE experience worse and weapons weaker. All I'm saying is I think it's fine for some things to stay where they belong - a really cool Exotic bow that has some neat perks in PvE doesn't NEED to be good in PvP, there are tons of other guns a player could use instead. If they try to make it "better" for PvP, something will go wrong, they'll have to "adjust" it, and the entire point of having a really cool Exotic bow with some neat PvE perks gets lost in the process...or they could leave it alone, players could equip something else, and the "problem" becomes "not actually a problem."

This is very true, just look at what they did to scouts recently. They need to completely seperate balanced between PvE and PvP, its depressing to see a PvP intended nerf affect the weapon in PvE, its completely -blam!-.

As a Scout main who doesn't follow Bungie news (their "intentions" and what they actually do are often different things, I'm more interested in in-game results than promises), I didn't know they made another change to Scouts, but I'm not surprised - they've always been the weakest Primary (thanks MIDA) simply due to being the only ranged single-fire precision weapon...their entire strength is in timed, steady, long shots, and Crucible already affords few opportunities to use them on the new CQ-oriented maps, but their incoming flinch, low RoF, and comparatively low DPS and TTK (plus low stability/high recoil) put them at a disadvantage in PvP. On the PvE side, even the high-impact variants still can't kill a Vandal, Acolyte, or Goblin/Hobgoblin in one shot, which was my D1 baseline - they're not even effective crowd control guns anymore, needing to double-tap infantry with a precision weapon is lunacy. The D2 Scouts just feel sloppy, and part of that's the amount of incoming flinch (scope bouncing) they receive, but there's nothing in D2 that feels as crisp and clean as my old Badger, Hung Jury, Another NITC, or Cryptic Dragon (with the sole exception of the blue Armillary PSu Scout with the old Red Dot OAS sight, which is basically a port of the D1-style build and is surprisingly stout in PvP - a lot of Blues are D1 classics that everyone ignores), and they sure as hell won't mow through a room full of Goblins the way they used to or the way any generic Pulse or HC will. They could probably fix a lot of Crucible problems by just applying a scaling factor to weapons - since Crucible maps are smaller than PvE environments, scale the Range to 0.5x to keep Autos from being long-range weapons (but allowing them to be viable in PvE) and scale Impact to a normalized DPS so all weapons are on a roughly-level playing field. Here's where the problem with Scouts begins (and these aren't in-game numbers, just using them to illustrate the issue): Let's say we're shooting for a 1.0s TTK, so each weapon needs to do ~200 crit damage in 1.0s inside its effective range (before dropoff begins) - a 150 Scout falls at 2.5 rounds/second (or 0.4s/shot), which comes out to 80 damage/shot assuming crits. That comes out to 160 damage/second, so requires a third shot to break 200 (comes to 240) and brings TTK up to 1.2s, which is kinda where the early Y1 TTK was at. (If Scouts were 2-shot to stay under 1.0s, they'd be at 0.8s). Now, let's look at 450 Autos, firing 7.5 rounds/second (or 0.133s/shot), which comes to 26.67 damage/shot for crits or 186.67 damage/second, which requires an 8th shot to break 200 (comes to 213.33) and brings TTK up to 1.0667s - 0.1333s faster than a Scout (12% faster), simply due to RoF. In a 1v1, Scouts lose based on numbers alone, but the scope flinch is where "reality" and "hypothetical numbers" deviate wildly - a solid Scout hit may stagger an Auto for one or two shots (body instead of crit), but they can make that up in 0.13s and still keep TTK under 1.2s; assuming a 3x crit multiplier (0.33 body-shot damage reduction), a Scout can technically still reach 206.67 damage with one body shot and 2 crits at 1.2s, but 2 missed crits push TTK to 2.0s, nearly double an Auto's TTK. (In Y1, this is why Uriel's was such a dominating weapon - it served the dual purpose of killing quickly AND effectively suppressing incoming fire.) Now, let's look at a quicker 0.8s TTK across the board - Scouts are now hitting for 100/shot at 0.4s/crit, or 33.33/shot for body shots, and an even 0.8s TTK with 2 crits; Autos are now hitting for 33.33/shot at 0.133s/crit, or 11.11/shot for body shots and an even 0.8s TTK for 6 crits. One missed Scout shot brings TTK back to the original 1.2s, and one missed Auto shot brings TTK to 0.933s, still faster than the original 1.0s and 0.2667s faster than a Scout (22% faster). Assuming perfect shots from all weapons, an 0.8s TTK could be REALLY fun (and chaotic as hell, in a good way), but would be a bit intense for most players and would significantly reduce counter-plays since most players would be dead before they could turn and shoot back (especially with precision weapons of their own); anything above that automatically disadvantages Scouts, by the very nature of the weapon. Hypothetical math aside, I agree that PvP and PvE need to stay separate - there's a way to make every gun viable and "good" in PvE without making PvP TOO soft or TOO brutal...and the guns themselves aren't what need to be adjusted, it's the way they're used and perform in different activities that needs to be adjusted on the back end. (As someone mentioned in another thread yesterday, Bungie seem to only deal in extremes - we either get ALL the Exotics, or none; we either get SUPER OP guns, or pea-shooters; it's like the concept of balance and a consistent gameplay experience completely evades them sometimes.)

Amen brotha, solid post all around. But to be honest i would rather see a comparison between pulse rifles and scouts. At the moment the only redeeming factor scouts have is range, and still thry get demolished by pulse rifles. Everything scouts do pluses do better. This weapon class completely overshadow scouts

Pulses are tricky, because the three-round burst and things like Headseeker introduce a lot of irregularity into getting "optimal" numbers. On a Crucible map, "range" rarely comes into play, and my old Machina Dei or Three Graves rarely found a situation where a Scout had any actual advantage due to damage drop-off - plus the three-round burst is staggering the Scout 3 times as often, so it's easy to throw off a Scout's shots even if not landing perfect crit bursts. (I'd be interested to see Bungie's internal collected stats, but I imagine Scouts have the lowest Optimal vs. Actual TTK in the game.) I don't play much Crucible these days, but in Y1 the only two Scouts with much leverage were MIDA (which I think was a psychosomatic effect left over from D1 more than actual weapon performance) and Nameless Midnight back when Explosive Payload was broken. Considering we're in Year 5 of Destiny, and Scouts have been the lowest tier of PvP weapon the entire time (with the possible exception of one or two maps with decent sightlines and halls that could be locked down, but a rusher with Doctrine of Passing could still take a couple Scouts out), I don't imagine we'll get much love any time soon - I wouldn't even mind if it was just a PvP thing, but the complete squishifying of Scouts in PvE makes the game less fun. I was a DMR main in Halo, to the point I'd drop Rockets or a Sword to pick up a DMR for the end-of-chapter battles, and a solid Scout main in D1 (and I prefer a Hunting Rifle to anything else in Fallout) - I've always been an aim-for-the-head ranged player, and there just isn't much place for that in D2. Hell, jump into Gambit with a Scout sometime - my solar Distant Relation (or even Polaris Lance) takes an absurd number of shots to drop infantry-level ads, half a mag to break a normal red-bar Wizard's shield, and if a Scorpius turret so much as looks at me my scope starts jittering so much my shots spray a 30-degree cone on the back wall. It's gotten so bad my Hunter runs HCs most of the time (been having some fun with Sturm and Drang, or Ace and Calamity/Arsenic depending on the singe/enemies) and my Titan stole a couple of Pulses from my Warlock for when he's not running my Outlaw+Rampage Duke - most of the Scouts I've gotten (apart from Distant Relation and Polaris) just aren't very good, and don't do enough damage to be worth running outside Solar Strikes. As you said, everything a Scout can do a Pulse can do better, and about 30% faster with a higher margin for error (i.e. less skill required) - R.I.P. precision shooting. :/

You're delusional if you think weapons are made with PvE in the forefront of Bungie's mind.

Players? Probably not. But Bungie? Absolutely. Why else would almost every weapon within a single class have different Damage stats, different range, different perks, and perform dramatically differently? If this game was geared to PvP, every weapon would perform similarly to give some illusion of competitive balance (similar to HoW and the Trials/PvP era during the second half of D1Y1, before King's Fall went back to the PvE-centered diversity and a lot of guns simply weren't PvP material); on the contrary, most guns are balanced to feel good in PvE/Strikes/Raids and adjusted to make the numbers work in that environment (long shots and plentiful ammo), and PvP is what ALWAYS leads to unintended consequences and a cycle of nerfs (e.g. Uriel's Gift's range, or Truth's ammo capacity, or Thorn's DoT)...the guns weren't built for Crucible, and they almost always break when they're used there. PvP players forget there's an entire other side to this game, and all those abused perks have their place in PvE too - Invis is good for rezzing a downed teammate surrounded by ads; Truesight is good for tracking enemies in rooms full of pillars or when they teleport; Headseeker makes a 2-shot Pulse a 1-shot against Vandals/Acolytes/Legionaries etc.; DoT effects are good for ads that duck into cover or peek-shooting Ultras; overpenetration is awesome for lining up Thrall (Thorn + Crota's maze FTW); yet almost all those end up being used more in Crucible by try-hards and scrubs alike than in PvE the way they were intended. The problem isn't that Bungie don't know how to make good weapons; the problem is that uncreative Crucible players need a crutch and look up Meta builds on Reddit/Youtube to get kills 1 shot quicker instead of learning how to use "normal" weapons, pace their shots, and selectively engage opponents. Crucible has become the lowest common denominator of cheap tactics...and now people are upset that a Dreaming City drop isn't a 1-shot kill AND lets players see through walls? That's just sad.

I hope you know all this post is asking for is bugs to be fixed on an already niche weapon. But... rant on, I guess.

Didn't even notice you were the OP, but I did catch that cheeky edit to recontextualize your reply - I was only responding to your comment to the comment I originally commented on that some guns are PvE-oriented and there's nothing wrong with that, in fact it's a welcome change. Bug fixes are fine, carry on. Needing every "niche" weapon to also include "niche AND OP in PvP" got old three releases ago.

Yeah, I don't think it needs to be buffed substantially. It needs bug fixes and it'll be fine. I edited just to clarify that I am solely talking about fixing bugs, and I was only responding to the poster because while it is a PvE obtained weapon, it's perks are more fit in PvP due to the nature of them.

I've answered why it isn't. There are no bugs. The weapon is preforming as intended. Not every weapon needs to be viable in crucible which is the only place the OP tested it

What? A PvE-only weapon gained from a PvE activity? How dare they! (About damn time.) Now they just need to tweak the Tractor Cannon to work properly OUT of the Crucible - I want nothing more than to give Taken Phalanxes a taste of their own medicine, shield or not. If they're going to leave it as a Power Weapon, give the thing some power!

I'm sure someone will come along and say how they slayed in pvp with it. But with the long draw time and a Taken specific perk evidence suggests you use Arsenic Bite instead. My only gripe is the arrows not piercing phalanx shields. It would be interesting pushing phalanxes away with the Cannon while they're blocking!