The killing power from his sisters wasn't diminished, though. It gave him a metric ton of killing strength. I doubt Akka planned for it. Yul probably planned for it, but not Akka. Why would a servant of the Deep, someone who believes in becoming the strongest, allow his body to be destroyed? This would also lessen the narrative impact of Oryx mantling the Taken King. While it may be possible, I choose to not believe that interpretation.

We only know for sure that the power Oryx gained was enough to do physical damage to Akka, not overcome him in a battle to the death. Its left ambiguous whether or not the two actually fought one another. As for why Akka would let himself be killed, its obviously that Hive and Worms are okay with surviving in unconventional means, such as through being mantled as weapons or as a Ship, if it means they will be apart of the Final Shape. Its rather fitting for Oryx, seeing as his power was never truly his own, that his title and power was more or less given to him, he was simply a puppet for the Worms to control. If it means sacrificing one's own body to a foolish host to secure your position as apart of the Final Shape, then so be it.

1. It's left ambiguous? Did you read the same card I did? haha! [quote]Auryx the First Navigator set upon his god with his sword and his words, and cut Akka to pieces, and took from those pieces the secret of calling upon the Deep. - XXVIII: King of Shapes[/quote] [quote]To make his ship, Oryx scrimshawed one piece of Akka, who was dead but far from gone. - XLI: Dreadnought[/quote] If you mean it is ambiguous whether Akka fought back, yes, I agree. But again, I choose to disregard that interpretation. While it is definitely possible, I dislike it because of my obvious bias towards Oryx. (Hands down my favorite character in Destiny) 2. While the Hive are ok with the prospect of living on as a weapon or ship, they aren't willing to when other options are available. Let me put it this way: becoming inanimate objects is a last resort, not something to seek out. All examples so far prove this. Oryx and his Touch of Malice plan? This was obviously a contingency. Xol and his Whisper plan? Nope. The Whisper lore-tab clearly states that Xol needed a worthy opponent to kill him. This means he needs someone more powerful than him. Xol tried his best against us and we won, therefore proving the Sword Logic... therefore completing his contingency plan. Because yes, Xol had to die to someone more powerful than he, meaning it technically was not done on purpose. He had to try to survive. He had to fight tooth and nail. Those are the only two instances I can find of intentional "weapon-ization". Both of them require someone more worthy in the Sword Logic to provide the killing stroke. So, even if Akka attempted this on purpose for some reason, for the plan to actually work, Oryx would have to be more powerful. That's kind of the opposite of what you're arguing, right?

Yes, its left ambiguous if they fought. Something getting slaughtered isn't a fight, something fighting back is a fight. And it doesn't matter what you disregard, we don't have enough evidence to say for sure if one interpretation is what happened or not. As for becoming weapons, Xol and Oryx didn't need something more powerful than them(not saying the Guardians weren't more powerful. They aren't, but that's another discussion) because they didn't have intentions of dying, like Akka (potentially) did. They just happened to die and just had a safety net. And Guardians aren't worthy by Sword Logic standards. Guardians actively spit on the Sword Logic, and both Oryx and Xol dying to them is an embarrassment to their beliefs. The Guardian was supposedly too weak to kill Xol on their own and needed aid from the Warmind, that should be enough of an example that the Sword Logic is debunked in regards to power and might. But there's still the question as to why Akka would make the small sacrifice of his physicality. To what end? Its rather simple. So that Oryx could gain the power to take, which would increase all the Worms tithe exponentially and securing their food source for the next couple thousand millennia or so. The Hive are the Worm's Hosts, meaning the Worms need them to thrive for their own survival. What good is a host that's withering away from starvation? If Akka allowed Oryx to kill him, Oryx would've only needed to be strong enough to physically inflict fatal wounds, not strong enough to overcome Akka in a fight. So no, that's not the opposite of what I'm arguing.

I think we're misunderstanding something. I'm under the belief that in order to become an inanimate object through death, you must "prove" the Sword Logic with your death. So, you can't die just any old way. You have to have proven the Sword Logic by dying. If Akka wanted to prove the Sword Logic, he would have needed to die to someone more powerful than he, as that is what the Sword Logic dictates. Sure, Akka could have let Oryx kill him without fighting back, but assuming Oryx wasn't as powerful as him, that would not prove the Sword Logic and Akka would not live on. Alternatively, Akka "living" after his body is destroyed could be a completely separate concept than Oryx and Xol's plans. When I first read the Books of Sorrow, I assumed this to be a reference to the Ahamkara. (both live on through their bones, or whatever.) So, if that is true, this entire argument would lose all its relevancy. Something else: While yes, we spit on the Sword Logic philosophy, we have used the raw power of the Sword Logic before. We do not know Hive sorcery and so we cannot use the Sword Logic outside a Throne World like the Hive do, but inside a Throne World our Sword Logic power surfaces. That is one of the many reasons why we were "the key" to killing Oryx, as Eris puts it.

You do know that the Sword Logic isn't actually a real thing, right? Its just a philosophy that the Hive follow dictating that if something can be killed, then it should be. The only reason the Ascendant Realm reflects this philosophy is because it was shaped to, by either the Hive or the Worms. And the Sword Logic's only real application beyond reaching the Final Shape is in the increasing of power. Akka didn't have to prove anything in order to die, especially since he continued to exist afterwards. Regardless, Akka's plan would have been to allow Oryx to take the power to call upon the Deep and gain the Taken power, not to become a ship, that was probobly just a side bonus. Also, the Worms persisting after death thing isn't a reference to the Ahamkara, its just something the do. [spoiler]In regards to "Sword Logic Power" (which is really just Ascendant power) we only used it twice. One was at the bridge in Crota's end and one was at the Warpriest in King's Fall. At the bridge, the power was housed in a Sword, and not ourselves. At the Warpriest, the power we took from the runes was fleeting and had to be upkept with death every few seconds. In both cases, it wasn't our "Sword Logic", it was the Warpriest's or the Swordbearer's. And Hive don't use their magic to access their "Sword Logic" power outside the Ascendant Realm, they're empowered through their Worms.[/spoiler]

I really, [i]really[/i] do not want to have a debate about Sword Logic. That shit is confusing as hell. However, I'd like to point out that your concept of Sword Logic being only philosophy is debatable. The community had such debates a long time ago. The Books of Sorrow make references to the Sword Logic being an actual power multiple times. So do other Hive Grimoire. The Sword Logic, by our best understandings, is both figurative and literal. It is both philosophy and power. [quote]Overwhelm the Kaharn bastion. Slaughter everyone there. From your acts we shall obtain the logic we require to cut space open and migrate to orbit. - XII: Out of the Deep[/quote] [quote]You are no longer bound by causal closure. Your will defeats law. Kill a hundred of your children with a long blade, Auryx, and observe the change in the blade. Observe how the universe shrinks from you in terror. - XVI: The Sword Logic[/quote] Both of these quotes describe killing something and transferring that killing into power. And while yes, this power could be attributed to their larvae, I do not think that is the case. Hell, the second quote comes from a card literally titled "Sword Logic". The first quote quite literally says they will "obtain the logic" to use space magic. We also get an example of the Sword Logic as a power in Grimoire Card Ascendant Sword. [quote]Let me tell you about the power in the logic of the sword: A Shredder or a Boomer is a powerful weapon, but it kills acyclically. You see? It sends out harm and it takes nothing back. The bolt passes away into nothing. A sword, though, a sword is like a bridge, a crossing-point. The sword binds wielder to victim. It binds life to death. And when the binding is done—the sword remembers. When the Boomer's fire has burnt away into axion and neutrino scatter, the sword goes on, hungrier and sharper. - Ascendant Sword[/quote] This card describes a sword gaining power through killing. A sword does not have a larva. It cannot innately gain power from Worms. Even if the Sword Logic has no real power in our world, which I disagree with, it does in the Throne Worlds of the Hive. This is blatantly true. This rule of the Sword Logic applies to [i]everything[/i] within a Throne World. This includes us. We know this to be true because of several Grimoire Cards. [quote]they didn't understand the sword logic, which defined all rules in Oryx’s throne world. The geometry perplexed them. - XXXIX: open your eye : go into it[/quote] [quote]the Vex ritual-of-better-thoughts manifested a Mind called Quria, Blade Transform. Quria deduced the sword logic. I have to kill everything, Quria resolved. Then I will be powerful. - XXXIX: open your eye : go into it[/quote] Inside a Hive Throne World, every time we kill, we increase in power using Sword Logic, willing or not. So technically, we use the Sword Logic [i]much[/i] more than twice. We use it the entire time when in both Hive raids.

Sword Logic is only literal in the Ascended Realm, there's no cases of it having sway in the real world. Oryx's sword became more powerful because he was the one using it and he had become ontological. Guardians have wielded Hive swords before and they're no powerful than normal swords in the real world. Also that card talking about the Sword becoming stronger, its referring to an Ascended Sword, something only empowered in the Ascended Realm. It says [quote]Understand that this nightmare logic underpins His nightmare world, and you will see why the ascendant blade has so much power there[/quote] directly after the quote you provided. Nowhere does it say the Guardians used the "Sword Logic" power. Its an observable fact that you don't garner more power from killing things in either Crota's or Oryx's Throne. In fact Guardians have to take the Sword and the Aura from powerful entities in the Throne to be powerful enough to complete a task, and then they just leave it behind. Sword Logic power seems to just roll off a Guardian's back, it didn't stick to them the way it does for non-paracausal entities oriented towards the Darkness. Almost like paracausal powers resist the laws or reality, regardless of what reality the power happens to be existing in at the. Toland seems to think the Guardians who killed Oryx were obeying the Sword Logic philosophy because they challenged Oryx's power and Oryx's power was not enough, but Toland is an insane fool. Just killing something isn't Sword Logic, its killing something because if it can be killed, it should be. The Guardians didn't kill Oryx because he could be killed, the Guardians killed him because he was threatening her home. It wasn't even Killing Logic, because the Guardian's aim wasn't to increase their standing in the Universe, they abandoned the Throne as soon as Oryx was dead when they could've easily taken it for themselves. Guardian's just don't use Sword Logic, philosophy or power.

You got me on the sword quote. I remembered the Grimoire Card, found it, and cited it without really doing anything other than skimming it. You got me there. I was being pretty lazy. However, my point about Guardians utilizing Sword Logic still stands. Both of my previous quotes imply that the Sword Logic is intrinsic to Throne Worlds (Hive ones, at least) and all things within it. Quria, a Vex Mind who notably did not introduce larvae to it's mind-fluid, reasoned that killing things in Oryx's Throne World made it stronger. It also literally says, "the sword logic, which defined all rules in Oryx's Throne World". These quotes flat out say that things within Throne Worlds use Sword Logic. Now, you are correct, nowhere does it say that us Guardians use the Sword Logic. But nowhere does it say that we do not. (And game mechanics don't count. Why did we need an Aura? I don't know, maybe because the Daughters' songs are a higher form of Sword Logic that we cannot counter? Maybe we only use Sword Logic as a sort of damage buff, and not actual sorcery. Maybe we don't even realize we are using Sword Logic. Maybe the weavings and unravelings go beyond Sword Logic. I don't know. There's a lot of maybes. Game mechanics aren't explained well at all and because of that shouldn't be used as definitive proof. Game mechanics are made by the actual game designers, not the writers. Any lore that explains mechanics is always shoehorned in. That's the nature of raid design.) Therefore, concluding that we do based on multiple implications, seems the most reasonable to me. It also better explains [i]why[/i] we were able to kill Oryx so easily. Not only was he starving due to a lack of tribute, but we also had the killing power of Crota. Makes more sense that way. It also helps explain why "the Guardian" was the key, as Eris puts it. Notice it is singular, not plural. She isn't talking about Guardians in general, she's talking about us specifically. Us accidentally gaining killing logic from Crota fits nicely with all this. What I'm trying to say is this: You can interpret Destiny's lore in many different ways. Some interpretations have more evidence than others and some have less. Some are pure speculation. I can't definitively prove you wrong, but you can't prove me wrong either. I'm gonna go with the interpretation that better lines up with previous plotlines and lore. P.S. The leaked Forsaken armor set lore also really helps my case that Sword Logic exists in our world. Previously, many assumed that the ability to create Sword Worlds was tied to worm larvae. Nope. Mara has her own Throne World and she has no such ties. If Hive sorcery is tied to their larvae and not the Sword Logic, how would someone with no larva create their own Sword World? I'm sure you could come up with some sort of answer to that, but that's just one more wrench in your understanding of the Hive. P.P.S. I understood Hive sorcery to be direct uses of the Sword Logic. So, Oryx being ontological is [i]because[/i] of the Sword Logic. My understanding, therefore, is that Oryx's sword became more powerful through his ontological nature which he achieved through Sword Logic. The two concepts further my point instead of countering each other. Again, though, this is one interpretation. You could (and do) have another.

Yeah, the Sword Logic is intrinsic to the Hive’s Throne Worlds as well as the Ascended Realm in general. Its as ingrained into that reality as physics is in the real world, but Guardians are paracausal, they act outside the normal laws of reality, regardless of what reality they are in. Game mechanics are heavily rooted in the lore. Oracles sent signals to the Templar to rework reality and that why you have to destroy them in time, Crota’s immune to normal damage because those swords are the only thing powerful enough to damage him, the Warpriest can wipe a fire team because his Oversoul produced a paracausal death impulse. I’m sorry to tell you this but Destiny does, in fact, have an internal consistency. As for the aura, I was referring to the “Aura of the Initiate”, a mechanic in the Warpriest fight to initiate the DPS phase. This aura is clearly Sword Logic, seeing as it empowers the Guardians to the point of being able to damage the Warpriest. The only thing is that it doesn’t mesh with the Guardians, its constantly dissipating and requires something to be killed every few seconds to keep it going. Also the fact that the Guardians can’t damage the Warpriest without this aura should be testament enough that they don’t gain strength through the Sword Logic. They killed Crota, who was more powerful than the Warpriest, so killing him should’ve been as simple as walking in and putting him down with their own might, yet they need the aura. Why? Because while other entities have to abide by the rules of the Ascended Realm, Guardians resist the Logic with hot, dead spite. And we didn’t just starve Oryx, we took back the Light he stole and reincorporated it so it would burn away at the Darkness as well as agitated his already hungering worm so it would consume him. Also, creating a Throne World wasn’t tied to the Hive having worms, it was tied to being physically able to enter the Ascended Realm. Seeing as Mara Sov has been canonically confirmed to be able to go beyond the Veil, it’s not surprising that she’d have a Throne, and doesn’t strengthen your argument. Where exactly did you get the idea that the Hive use the Sword Logic to gain strength and not through feeding their worm? What would be the purpose of them taking the deal with the Worm Gods if they could simply kill things to gain power? Why would they sell their soul for what amounts to nothing in your mind? The Worm Gods even report that Hive sorcery is just an advanced technology, not a fundamental factor of reality, which it would need to be if it aligned with your interpretation of the Sword Logic. Your interpretation doesn’t line up with the lore, in fact I’d say your interpretation has quite a few potholes in some very crucial points.

Our posts are getting really lengthy, so I'm gonna divide your points into smaller sections. It'll be easier for me to digest. 1. Paracausality means you defy causality. Cause and effect get all jumbled. This defiance means we can't be simulated by Vex, we can "make our own fate", and we can use space magic. However, Bungie has never exactly defined what we can and cannot do with this paracausal power. Are we only paracausal when we use our abilities, or are we always constantly defying causality? We don't have an answer for that. Right now, my understanding of paracausality is that we become paracausal when we use space magic, but that's it. Maybe Warlocks can further break reality (I believe it's explicitly stated a few times) but I don't think my hunter can, at least besides summoning golden guns and whatnot. TLDR: We break physics when we toss a nova bomb, but there's nothing to say that we can pick and choose what we want to break when we want to break it. My Warlock might, but not my jock of a Titan or my wisecracking Hunter. 2. That may be true of VoG, but not of the other raids. Bungie has made it clear that game mechanics are developed separate from the lore. When a raid is designed, the raid team comes up with the mechanics and encounters, and only afterwards the writers fill in the gaps. When designing VoG, the raid team had zero idea what the hell the Oracles were or what they did. After the raid design was approved and began development, the writers came up with the lore. Have you noticed the lore on raid mechanics has gotten ever increasingly thin? VoG had a lot, Crota had enough, King's Fall was a little iffy, WoTM was self explanatory, and Leviathan's was pretty much nonexistent. Why did we use Sword Logic in Warpriest? Why was the test designed where Sword Logic power was given by stepping on plates, when Hive should be able to use it intrinsically? Why do Lighteater's exist? What is a Vessel of Oryx? Why does SIVA exposure empower us? What the hell is anything in Leviathan? What's Greed? While VoG was tightly written and explained thoroughly, other raids haven't gotten the same treatment. Raid mechanics should always come second in authenticity. It wasn't designed by the writers. The writers simply came up with an excuse. 3. I'll admit when I'm wrong, or at least when I'm confused. You're correct, if we attained Crota's killing power, we should have stomped Warpriest. I genuinely don't have a retort to that. Hmmm. I guess this does sort of unravel the whole theory of Guardians utilizing Sword Logic. That saddens me. I really liked that narrative. It muddied the morality waters and made Eris'/Mara's plan a lot more thought out. Damn. All I can say is I'm disappointed. This makes the Hive dlc's a lot less exciting for me... 4. I know the overall story of King's Fall. I know the reasons Bungie gave as to why we were able to kill him. I only meant that Oryx would be presented as an even more menacing villain if Crota's killing power were another thing stacked against him. 5. To my knowledge, most of the lore community had accepted that Throne World creation is tied to Worm Gods. I myself never accepted or agreed with that, but many did, including popular YouTubers such as Byf. Because of their influence, many others also believed it as well. I think they interpreted the "immortality" that Aurash bargained for as the Throne Worlds, not literal immortality. Again, I don't believe that, nor do you apparently. We agree on something! 6. Where does it state that making a Throne World is as simple as entering the Ascendant Realm? Is that what you're saying? I guess I'm confused as to what you mean. 7. The "Veil" has never been confirmed to be tied to Ascendant Realms. It hasn't even been implied. Many, including myself, attribute the Veil to the Void and/or Vex related time-stuff. Maybe they'll tie the Veil and Ascendant Realm together in Forsaken, but so far, they haven't. 8. The Hive, Sword Logic, and Worms; my understanding is thus: The larvae grant the Hive literal immortality as long as the Hive uphold their bargain. The larvae also grant the Hive the ability to use the Sword Logic. The Hive grow in strength directly from their worms, but they call this act of feeding their larvae Sword Logic, as they are using the philosophical definition. However, the "real" version of Sword Logic exists too, which the Worm Gods teach the Hive early on as sorcery. This literal Sword Logic, as opposed to figurative Sword Logic, can actually affect the world and is fed by killing. We see examples of this multiple times in the BoS. TLDR: Hive grow in strength by feeding their larvae. They call this "Sword Logic" because it upholds their philosophy. However, because their larvae enable them to do so, the Hive can also use literal Sword Logic power. This manifests itself as what we call magic. This non-figurative Sword Logic power doesn't grant them immortality and does not affect their strength, but it can be used to power spells. In the Ascendant Realm, however, Sword Logic is undeniably real and they are affected by it. 9. Where is it stated that Hive sorcery is just technology? Anna Bray says so, but she's talking about their rituals and weapons, not the more darkness-related stuff. The Worm Gods do say something along the lines of "feeble minds might call it magic", but they're only implying that Sword Logic is a sort of science. It has rules and limitations and can be understood. They aren't saying it's technology. All they're saying is that it isn't bippity boppity boo shit. Conclusion: You've really challenged a lot of my previous beliefs and understandings. In fact, this whole conversation has been a really great way for me to gather up all my Hive knowledge and fact check, if you will. It's sort of gathered and organized my thoughts. One thing still stands, though. I'm still adamant in believing that the Sword Logic exists in our world. It isn't integral to our world, but it exists. The Hive can use it because the Worm Gods granted them it. I'm sticking to that. Though I will agree, the Sword Logic is foreign to our world. Any paracausal Sword Logic powers that exist in our world were transported from the Ascendant Realm/Deep. One last thing. You say that the Sword Logic doesn't exist in the real world, yet how would you say the Worm Gods/larvae work? They grant power that seems pretty magical. Paracausality. If Hive immortality and strength is granted to them by the Worms, what gives the Worms this power? I'd say Sword Logic. Just an idea.

1. Guardian abilities aren't what causes their paracausality. The Light itself is paracausal (the Traveler's Light, anyway), which allows Warlocks to fall hundreds of feet and stop on a dime without any transfer of force, or allow Titans to shape their essence into a protective Ward, or Hunters to grab the void and morph it into a bow. All these abilities aren't the cause of the Guardian's paracausal nature, they're just symptoms of it. Its a switch that can't be flipped off, the constant defying of the laws of reality (any reality) is just in their nature. 2. Lore might be secondary with mechanics, but it's not like things will happen for no reason in context of the Raid. Things still have a rhyme and reason to them. Guardians gain the Sword Logic through a Hive glyph sequence, which takes a bit of the Warpriest's Sword Logic. The Warpriest allows this because he's an insane fanatic and the Hive as a whole are weirdos. Lighteaters exist to, simply enough, eat the Light. They were eliet Ogers and Knights tasked with getting rid of the Guardians. Vesstles of Oryx likely had some essence of Oryx within them or were just directly possessed by Oryx, making them hard to kill. SIVA exposure empowers the Guardian because its a nanotechnology designed to make things more powerful and efficient. I will say that Bungie has been getting lazy with explaining/displaying what the mechanics for the new raid are (Normal Leviathan and EoW are pretty easy to figure out, though) but if I had to take a guess, I'd say Val Ca'uor stole what he thought was a powerful weapon while on the Leviathan, but it actually turned out to be one of Calus's gameshow gadgets designed to make the Guardians run around in an entertaining manner. 3. I wouldn't say its disappointing. Guardians are weak compared to the enemies they fight. Sword Logic dictates that they shouldn't even be a threat to someone like Oryx. But they're tenacious, they're anti-entropy, counter attrition incarnate. Anything can put them down, but nothing can keep them down. I find it rather inspiring that they broke the Sword Logic, over the King's crown, no less. They simply defy the world around them, like a Spark in the Night and I find that rather nice. 4. I think that if the Guardian's possessed Crota's power, That would really take away from the "Weak overcoming the Strong" theme Destiny has been presenting to us. 5. Most of the lore community didn't believe me when I had theorized that Rezyl Azzir was Dredgen Yor back when his first Grimoire card came out. A lot of people still believes Dredgen Yor was a Hunter, so I don't put much stock into widely accepted beliefs in Destiny. 6. Hiraks figured out how to create a Throne just by studying the Hive, so I'd assume its not all that complicated. 7. Its implied here and there that the Ascendant Realm is referred to as "beyond the veil", but considering the Queen has Queen has the ability to go beyond the Veil, and she's currently in the Ascendant Realm, it seems like a simply 1+1=2, but who knows. Maybe its something else entirely. 8. The Hive's relationship to their worms is actually a lot simpler than you'd think. The Hive feed their worms and the Worms release spores that empower th a Hive. Also, what is BoS? 9. The quote is "We will not give you the Deep, King Auryx — that power is for us, your gods. But we will teach you to call upon that force with signs and rituals. Small minds might call it magic." This implied that the Hive magic is just them calling upon the Deep. Might not be technology, but its not Sword Logic. The Deep gives nothing, especially not Sword Logic. Yeah, conversation and debate tend to iron out a lot of things for the lore. And you can still believe that the physical Sword Logic holds a place in our reality. We don't know everything about the Hive, so there's still room for revelations to occur in the Lore. And Worms grant paracausality because their spawn of the Worm Gods, undeniably ontological brings that have made a deal with the Deep in exchange for their paracausality. Their larvae would be intrinsically paracausal by their very nature.

1. Yeah, I know our Light is the source of our paracausality, but again, it's never outright stated what we can break and what we can't break. If I can break reality by just existing, why can't I just erase the Leviathan from existence with pure will? Why can't I travel through time? It's obvious that we have some sort of limitations to our reality bending ways. Anyways, this point is mute, as we already kind of agreed that we rejected the Sword Logic. Oh well. 2. You get what I mean, though. I didn't say raid mechanics aren't canon. I just meant if there is a conflict between lore and mechanics, one should take the lore more seriously. And Warpriest gives us Sword Logic power? Why? His Grimoire basically says his job is to test Hive that wish to usurp Oryx. Since Hive value personal strength and the act of taking over all things, why would he [i]give[/i] his Sword Logic to an opponent? An opponent who he is testing. That'd be as if a professor gave his students all the answers to a test. Makes no sense. It directly contradicts Hive doctrine and philosophy. And Vessel of Oryx? Even your answer is a best guess, haha! I guess my point is that the raids have been really shallow in explaining mechanics lately. Compare the mechanics to VoG, and everything seems very barebones. 3. I find it disappointing because... well the best way I can put is simply: Lovecraft. The Hive and the entirety of the Books of Sorrows just screams Lovecraftian to me. I'm a fan of cosmic horror and that's one reason I love the Hive so much. If you know anything about cosmic horror, you'd understand why I dislike Guardians simply defying Oryx. Cosmic horror, at its roots, is the idea that there are forces beyond your control. There is always someone or something above you and there is always something or someone above it. Cthulhu is scary not because he's a squid monster, but because he [i]isn't[/i] evil. He is just so unknowable, so godlike and ascended that he must see us as we see insects. Tiny things with no purpose. And above Cthulhu are even greater gods that he fears. The basic principle is that nothing you do will ever matter. You cannot escape the system. The Sword Logic invoked that same feeling of dread that cosmic horror does, at least for me. It's a thing you can't defy, something you can't escape. Us killing Oryx only by abandoning our values and morals and using the Sword Logic was something I found so interesting and somewhat scary. It [i]proved the Deep claim[/i]. Think about that. Damn. Not anymore, I guess. That entire aspect is gone; thrown out the window. Ignorance is bliss, as they say. I think I'll remain ignorant on that front and just pretend we used the Sword Logic. That'll be my headcanon. 4. I don't think us taking Crota's killing power would detract from those themes. We still beat Crota. We still "overcame the strong". We just did it in a more technical way. 5. Anyone who believes Dredgen was a Hunter is an idiot. No one takes them seriously anymore. There are very few who believe that, as it is undeniable now. Though I will say, Bungie has confirmed that Dredgen Yor was technically a Hunter. I believe they have said that Rezzyl and Dredgen are two different "people". Not literally, mind you, but they are different personalities. Like Dissociative Identity Disorder. Rezzyl and Dredgen were two different people, but they were the same flesh and blood. Rezzyl was a Titan and Dredgen a Hunter. In concept. 6. Hiraks also spent years within the Hellmouth doing god knows what. I don't think we can use him as proof that Throne Worlds aren't complicated. He's like the Toland of the Fallen. 7. The leaked lore-tabs indicated that the Queen was captured by Oryx. Remember how the blast from the Dreadnought "killed" her? Do you also remember that the Dreadnought's weapon is the externalization of Oryx's Throne World and that it works by pushing it into our reality? This inclines me to believe that the Queen entered the Ascendant Realm the moment Oryx's super-weapon hit her; not by her own will, but because his weapon dragged her into Oryx's Throne, as the weapon is technically his literal Throne. The fact that her Techeuns that were with her when she "died" are alive and Taken, presumably by Oryx, also indicate this. They couldn't have escaped across the Veil, so the blast somehow preserved them. Like it preserved Mara. That's just my theory anyways. We'll probably know for certain come Forsaken. 8. I think it's a bit more complicated than that. Multiple scenes with the Worm Gods indicate that there's more to it. But it's all up to interpretation at the end of the day. BoS is shorthand for Books of Sorrow. 9. I wouldn't say that. The Deep literally says that he is Sword Logic. Give "Majestic Majestic" a read again. If the Deep is the literal concept of Sword Logic, then it makes sense that its power would be Sword Logic. What I'm trying to say is: What if the Deep and the Sword Logic are one and the same. If the Hive are granted the power of Sword Logic through their larvae, like I interpreted, then this explains away the giving aspect. The Worms gave the Hive the ability to utilize Sword Logic along with giving them the powers of the larvae. This giving was the reason why the Worm Gods decreased in power, as the Web-Lore states above. Going by this logic of Deep = Sword Logic, this perfectly fits with my idea that the Worm Gods utilize real Sword Logic. They made a deal with the Deep, and therefore they made a deal with the Sword Logic. Makes sense to me.

1. The new lore menu (seen in the new Bungie ViDoc- Forsaken Launch and Beyond) describes it best through Uldren's distaste for Guardians, being that they Walk thorough the world without having to care about how it works. He thinks there's an order to reality, and they don't have to care about it. Guardians don't break reality, they just disregard it's rules. 2. The Warpriest didn't give that power. That little production with the Runes likely enabled the Guardians to take it from him, which he probably didn't even realize was happening. The Rune activation sequence was the real test, killing him was either secondary or something he wasn't even expecting. 3. The reason I like how the Guardains killed Oryx is because that chain of command, that cosmic pecking order, does exist. Oryx and all the other Ascended Hive came to Sol so cocksure and confident with their place on top of the universe, that they looked to the Guardians and saw insects to feed their worms with. But the Guardians aren't insects, same as they aren't the thing that gives nightmares nightmares. They're outside that order, they're not mightier or lesser than anything, they operate outside that order. They didn't have to be above Oryx to kill him because "above" doesn't apply to them. That's the power of paracausal Light, its not a weapon that can slay gods, Light has never been a weapon. Its a tool that separates you from the cosmic order. Oryx even said that nothing you do matters unless you act outside the laws of the universe and become ontological. 4. Ehh, different strokes, I guess. 5. Class boundaries were a lot less defined in Rezyl's time. 6. He figured out a way to make his Throne through study and research, and that was just one dreg. I'd imagine the Queen's Witches could deduce the method rather quickly. 7. The weapon Oryx fired was an Ontological Death Impuls, so if by "dragged her into Oryx's Throne" you mean it killed her, and took her into the Ascendant Realm, then yeah, I'd agree. 8. That's the Ghost's analysis of the Hive. And while yes, He can be annoying, the Ghost sure knows how to interoperate the world around him. 9. The card "Majestic Majestic" is saying that the Deep is just the universe working itself out, trying to find what's best for to be the Final Shape. That the different "Ways" of the Universe will meet and exchange their laws and the more fit way will continue on. The Sword Logic is the belief that if something is unfit to exist, then it doesnt deserve to exist, and its up to the Worthy to dispose of the Unworthy. The Sword Logic is used by the Hive to reach the Final Shape, but the Deep itself isn't Sword Logic.

1. Okay. Haven't read that one yet. 2. I believe it would be a more "Hive" way of doing things if the test were to simply kill him. That makes the most sense to me. I don't know why the test would be to arbitrarily use runes. There's no confirmation for that, so it's up to personal preference I guess. 3. Again, we just have different tastes. The concept of hope and rising above evil just... bores me. I find it much more thought provoking and intriguing if the Deep claim is... I don't know, essential? I like the idea that both the Light and Dark are flawed. Both just differing philosophies in a cosmic war. No good and evil, just sides to choose. The Light is the kind and happy way, but it cannot uphold its values if it wants to truly beat the Darkness. The Darkness is a brutal and powerful way, but its morality is horrifying. Obviously, none of that is confirmed in the game and judging from your opinions, I doubt you'd like it if it was, but I like it. I like it a lot more than just "Light good! Dark evil!". With Uldren's "The line between Light and Dark is so very thin" I'm hoping Forsaken will explore this grey area. It probably won't, but a man can dream. 4. I agree. 5. True. That goes in tandem with the whole different personality thing. Not only was Dredgen notably different from Rezzyl, but lines between classes were very blurred anyways. 6. He also became a mute sociopath and grafted Hive chitin onto his face. I think you're underestimating the amount of shit that guy went through. 7. That's sort of what I meant. I think it's similar to Toland's fate. Her body was destroyed but her soul remained, and since the Dreadnought blast was Oryx's literal Throne, she got pulled in. 8. The Ghost didn't know everything when he made that analysis. And we don't know the scope of what he was trying to figure out. Was he simply trying to figure out the relationship between larva and Hive? If so, he got the data he wanted. I doubt he was analyzing every little thing the larvae could do. 9. I disagree. The Sword Logic and the Deep claim are exactly the same. You say the Deep is the universe figuring out what the Final Shape should be. Different ways meet and one "kills" the other. The one that wins continues on until it is challenged and beaten. Is that not the Sword Logic? The "way" that is beaten is "killed" and therefore is unfit to exist. The stronger "way" continues existing, until another worthier way usurps it. So on and so on. The two things you described are just different ways of wording it. The Deep and the Sword Logic could very well be the same. It isn't confirmed, but the evidence is there. Your understanding isn't confirmed either. We are at an impasse.

1. It literally just came out today, so... 2. The Warpriest was a weird guy. Maybe he was looking for someone who could configure his runes for him. That's his trial anyway. 3. They'll probably go into those themes more in Forsaken, but i wouldn't say Guardians killing Oryx was a "Good Guys vs Bad Guys" thing. I saw it more as Order vs Entropy. 4. I agree with your agreement. 6. Probably not any more than what Eris went through, and she seems alright... ish. 7. Yeah, but was she trapped? I don't remember seeing anything like that. I thought it was that she his out till the Guardians did their thing. 8. I dont know, Ghost has reported some things that some would consider contravercial (such as the Exo's relation to the Vex) so I don't think he has much interpretation bias. 9. The Deep is the Universe trying to find what's most sustainable, while the Sword Logic is just another "way" competing for the position as Final Shape (which is what's most sustainable). One it the end goal, the other is the means to an end.

1. Yeah, I'm saving it for when I get it in Forsaken. 2. That's just making excuses, lmao. Come now, admit it, you don't have an explanation. 3. Oryx definitely wasn't an "evil" person. His morals were screwed up and he was the antagonist of the expansion, but I wouldn't call him evil. I don't think the larger community thought of him as evil either. What I meant was the Light and Dark, when taking away the concepts I presented, are very cut and dry; good and evil. I don't want that. I hope Bungie won't go that direction. 6. Eris isn't mute though. And we have no idea what happened with Hiraks. Eris lost her eyes, hid in the shadows, stole some from an acolyte, and lost her Ghost. For all we know, Hiraks got tortured by wizards, vivisected, put back together, and tossed into the Ascendant Realm for good measure. Like I've said, I wouldn't underestimate what he went through. And I doubt Bungie will ever elaborate. 7. The lore-tab says this: [quote]The voyage across the sea of screams threatens to erode her edges as no other trial ever has. In Oryx's throne world, she had a semblance of an identity. [b]Treasure. Spoil of war. Defeated queen.[/b] Repugnant and alien and Not Me, but she could use these contortions as guideposts to trace her way back to herself.[/quote] It doesn't outright say she was trapped, but normally treasures and spoils of war aren't things you let go freely. 8. I don't mean he has interpretation bias. I meant his dialogue was vague. What was Ghost's dialogue supposed to cover? Was it simply how worms work? How Hive stay immortal? The relationship between larva and Hive? Depending on the context and how specific Ghost's dialogue was, it might not rule out Sword Logic power. (By my definition. Not the one you assumed awhile back) Essentially, I was saying you could be misinterpreting the writers' intent with that dialogue. It could be more specific of an explanation, not a wide "everything Worms do for the Hive." 9. Uhh, not really. There's nothing that states that in the lore. By your definition, the Final Shape could be a "way" as what's to say the Universe needs a final outcome? This whole topic is really subjective. It's all theory at this point. Something I noticed when finding the leaked lore: [quote]They will enter the court and challenge its king and dance in its killing ground, and they will [b]master the school of sword logic so mightily that they will overturn its teacher[/b] and forsake the crown.[/quote] Yes, this is the Queen talking and maybe we didn't do as she planned. But I think this might allude to Bungie's intentions with King's Fall. Perhaps Bungie [i]did[/i] imply that us Guardians utilized the Sword Logic. (And besides the Warpriest. It says we'll master it to the point of overturning our teacher. I think that constitutes more than one boss fight.) Again, nothing confirmed. Not even close. But it's interesting to think about. Anyways, that's just my first thoughts on all that. I'd like to hear yours.

2. Just because an explanation isn't obvious doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Also, the Warpriest really was a weird guy, even by Hive standards. Just something we should factor in. 3. You'll probably get that blurred lines theme a lot more from the Drifter's lore. https://www.ishtar-collective.net/search/The%20Drifter Dude's an actual psychopath, like in the actual conventional sense. 6. Hiraks talks. It might be incomprehensible, but he talk. 7. Okay, cool. I don't pay much attention to lore on the Queen, mainly because I despise her, but yeah that seems to imply imprisonment. 8. His scan was about their biological functions, and how Hive react to the worm's spores, so I think that's telling enough. 9. Yeah, the Final Shape is the philosophy of the Deep, that there's going to be a final outcome. That's definitely a "way" and its currently fighting with the way of the Sky to se who's most fit. Just two opposing philosophies figuring out which is superior. Neither good or evil, just oppositional to one a other. Sword Logic is the idea that "Hey, you're either the winner of the universe or you don't matter", to phrase it casually. That off handed remark in point 7. probably didn't give you enough insight as to the full extent of my hatred for the Queen, but I pretty much disregard everything that dreg says. I'd say she isn't an authority on the Sword Logic or Guardian metaphysiology, (or on anything beyond her trash heap of a kingdom) so that quote is kind of ehh for me.

3. Goddamn, you're really tempting me. Damn it! I'm trying to hold off on the new lore-tabs until Forsaken. The few ones that got leaked awhile back were fine, but I feel if I start reading these new ones, I won't stop till I've read them all. Oh well, I'll take your word for it. 6. I could've sworn they said he was silent. Or is that lore you got from the new lore-tabs? 7. Aww. You don't like the Queen? Is there a reason or is it apart of the whole Kell of Rain character? The Reef lore is probably my second favorite "genre" of lore in Destiny and the Queen is a huge part of it. I really like her character. Anyways, regardless of any animosity you feel towards her, the writers at Bungie seem to like her. I take anything she says or thinks as solid truth until proven wrong. I don't see any reason why Bungie would have her be an unreliable narrator. She could be, but I see no reason. And a lot of really big lore stuff happens with the Queen. The Nine, the Veil, weird Awoken powers, etc. 8. Sword Logic probably isn't biological. 9. Yeah, so if you're saying the Deep embodies the Final Shape, and that the shape is a "way", then why can't the Sword Logic and the Final Shape be one and the same? They both mean the exact same thing. They're both ways. The Deep believes in both of them. It all adds up.

3. Oh man, you're really missing out. It's sooooo goooood. Morally Gray Guardians, Ice cubes cosmic horrors, train heists. Sounds really up your ally, man. 6. He's quiet, probably because no one understands him, but he speaks gibberish. Most people think he's speaking Hive. 7. Little bit of colum A, little bit of colum B. I find her pompous, arrogant, annoying and I can't stand her disposition to her claim to rule. Like when she said Oryx came to the system "Claiming to be King", like she had anything on him and his dynasty with her cluster of garbage and stolen asteroid. Not to mention the Reef and their "Holier than thou", "We're so much better than you" attitude, their neutral position in one of the most critical wars in Sol's history, and tendency to kill City forces whenever they see fit. So I'm not a fan of Reef Awoken to say the least. I could also go into the enslavement of my people, but I doubt it find an end to that rant. But when it comes to the Queen, she obviously has a bias in what she says, just like every other character, so I wouldn't take everything she says at face value. 8. Yeah, its probably not, but I don't believe its Sword Logic though. 9. The Deep embodies the Final Shape in that it sees itself as a fundamental process of the universe, and that everything will come to a singular point (the Shape). Sword Logic is just the method a species can take to attempt to become this shape. See the difference?

3. I cracked. I couldn't take it anymore and read all the new lore-tabs on Ishtar Collective. :( My God, are they good! And those are only the lore-tabs? I feel like even juicier lore is gonna be in the actual Collection lore. I haven't read any of those yet, as I need to save myself something for Forsaken. :D 6. Well, that seems insane enough in my book. 7. I found Mara to be a ruthless tyrant, yet I liked her as one might like Tywin Lannister. She isn't really a "good person" but she isn't a malicious one either. She isn't evil. She's in a grey area. I never found her to be pompous or arrogant. Just cold and calculating. Her quotes during Taken King were kinda justified. If my country got invaded by a foreign monarch, I'd be pretty pissed too. The Awoken think they're better than us? Name me an example. I literally don't remember any of that. You mean the Twilight Gap? They did help after all. Not for altruistic reasons, but they did help. Yeah, I wouldn't take what she said at face value, but I wouldn't question it too much. Every character has bias, but most of the time there's truth in what they say. I trust what Mara said until proven untrustworthy. "Innocent until proven guilty" in a way. 8. Okay. Well, I believe it is. :D 9. I see the difference, I think. But that card can be very vague at times and you could swing it one way or the other. I can see the card saying that the Deep is the Final Shape, but at the same time I can see the card saying that the Deep is the Sword Logic. Both interpretations have merit and reasonable proof within the card. It's sad that you despise the Awoken, as I heard we're getting a full Books of Sorrow-like Grimoire story centered completely around them. So, be prepared for a lot of Mara, lol.

3. They always crack. 6. He's sain enough. Sure, he might have an inclination to stare at you while breathing heavily and speak gibberish, but so do French people with aspergers and we don't judge them, do we? 7. Ruthless tyrants don't lose their City to enemy control or have a sizable chunk of their population abandon them. And her talking about Oryx wasn't just her being angry about him invading. She saw Oryx as a beast unfit for ruling, when in actuality his mind was a cosmos and his rule as sure and as firm as a collapsed star. She is a literal peasant to him. (Cosmic order, right?) As for their superiority complex Petra sums it up nicely; [quote]"The City, these— people. They are not like us. They do not understand their place in the world. And do not listen when I speak it." [/quote] She said this, after having three strike teams worth of Guardians killed via a bombing run, and she still expected to receive respect at the Tower. Like her crest means squat to the City. And Mara is most definitely pompous and arrogant. When Uldren trespassed on the Nine's territory, she sent them Skolas as a gift. [i]Skolas[/i]. That was a power move. She tried to pull a power move on the [i]Nine[/i]. And that blew up in her overly cocky face and caused the Wolves to rise and "betray" her (the fact that she even considered a literal [i]slave rebellion[/i] a betrayal should speak volumes about her ego. She even has a book written about her life, like the psycho she is), and she had to employ the Guardians to come fix her mess for her. Other examples are the guys if the Reef. Uldren. Obviously, his distain for the City and it's Guardians isn't exactly hard to notice, but he's the only one willing to be vocal about it. Which I respect. It even goes all the way down to the Cryptarchy. Master Ives educated the people "by the Queens Mercy" (more of that sweet sweet ego) that City Cryptarchs operate under false beliefs because they "decrypt anything and everything for any lowdown scavenger who happens upon an engram." They don't respect the City or it's people, and they act like everything they've done is some noble sacrifice when it's been a strategic move to attempt to make a claim for power. And I'm not just talking about Twilight Gap, but the Sol crusades in general. Up until recently, the Reef would destroy anything that got anywhere even remotely close to the Reef, and even toyed with ships they disabled for days on end. The Wolves not being able to reach Twilight Gap was probably an afterthought for the Queen, but she saw an opportunity to use her Dreg strength to turn the mighty against one another and she cut up what remained and crowned herself Kell, sullying the title by mere association. Also she has been "proven guilty". She manipulated the Guardians through Eris so she could position herself as a "player on the cosmic board". That's reason enough not to trust her. 9. Yeah, I suppose so. And yeah, I've got mixed feelings about the Reef lore comming out. On one hand, its Reef lore, on the other, its more material to hate about the Reef Awoken. A thirst that will never truly be quenched, I can assure you that. But Lore is a fickle mistress, and we don't always get what we want.

3. They sure do. But I'm adamant on [i]not[/i] reading the raid lore, the Awoken lore-book, or any other new "Grimoire". Only lore-tabs. So, I'll still have new stuff come Forsaken. Hopefully. 6. Well, I don't think French people with aspergers grow chitin on their face. I'd give them some pretty strange looks if they did. :D 7. Ah, oh well. I don't think I'll be changing your mind, huh? I like the Awoken, so that's all that matters, I suppose. I mean, tyrants can have those things happen to them... it's possible. Lol. She never said she thought of Oryx as a beast unfit for rule. She never questioned his intelligence. That's you putting shit in her mouth, lmao. She used the word beast because the Hive, in every external way, are pretty savage and cruel. I don't think you understand Petra's quote. She isn't saying they're inferior. She's experiencing culture shock. Awoken and City society are very different. Awoken are very different from Exo's and Humans. They have visions and dreams that tell them their future and destiny. That's what she meant by "their place in the world". She's saying us humans are weirding her out. That's all. And she didn't say all that directly after having Guardians killed. This is presumably years and years, potentially centuries, after that event. She sent Skolas to the Nine as an actual gift. The Nine are a power to be respected, and she didn't want to infringe on their trust, so she sent them Skolas as a sign of good faith. Why would you be pissed at her for sending Skolas? Why would Mara suspect the Nine would betray her? The Nine had [i]helped[/i] the Awoken defeat Skolas. Why would they release him and undo their work? If anything, you should be more pissed at the Nine. Mara was simply trying to sate their anger. We don't know the specifics of how the Wolves were treated. Calling them slaves, I think, would be a bit harsh. Mara said they welcomed them into their society. Now, obviously, that shouldn't be taken at face value. I expect they faced a lot of racism, disadvantages in the social ladder, and they probably had limitations on what they could or couldn't do. But calling them [i]slaves[/i]? I don't think so. She has a book written about her. So what? She's a queen. Tons of monarchs have books written about them. She also won a series of wars. Julius Caesar wrote a book about himself, yet we don't ridicule him. And more importantly, from spoilers that I failed to avoid, it seems Mara was the very first Awoken to awake; or at least one of the first. And she has many powers others don't. She isn't just some random bub. She's very important to Reef society as a whole. I feel like that justifies a book being written about her. Besides, Oryx wrote a book about himself, but we aren't complaining about that. A bit biased, I think. Why are we judging her for utilizing Guardians? She made a deal with us in Vanilla. She made use of that deal. What's so wrong about that? Plus, she paid us with "the riches of the Reef" so I'm good with it. Maybe Master Ives is just a dick. Maybe the Cryptarchs are just dicks. And remember, this is a monarchy. Most monarchies spread the idea that the monarchs ruled by divine right, so it makes sense that there'd be some ego involved. I'm not justifying it, only explaining it. The Reef has a disdain for the City because, presumably, a very large percentage abandoned Vesta for the Reef. They don't hate Earth and the Last City, but that negative experience is there in the back of their minds. I don't see what's so wrong about expanding one's kingdom. Everyone knew she didn't do it for altruistic reasons. I don't think any ruler does anything for altruistic reasons. She manipulated us via Eris? You mean devised a plan which saved the City and crippled the Hive, enemies of the City? OK. Sure. She manipulated us. ([i]Obvious sarcasm is obvious[/i]) So what she tried to take the Crown. (If she even did. Unless Forsaken reveals that, there's nothing saying that was her intention.) Why would a queen do anything for free? Especially something that costs her an entire fleet? Taking the Osmium Throne was her payment for helping Eris save the City and kill Oryx. And yes, the plan was Eris' idea. She and Osiris are the ones who approached the Queen. I see literally nothing wrong with any of this. She sacrificed Awoken lives, but literally every leader in existence has sacrificed lives in war. In great numbers too. 9. We agree, then. Good luck reading a Books of Sorrow style lore-book [i]exclusively[/i] about Mara Sov. Have fun, lmao. :D

7. Better leaders certainly would handle it better than Mara did. And she said that [quote]This beast has come, claiming to be King. Mara Sov bows to no one[/quote]. This isn't the first time she's dealt with other royalty before. There's a clear difference between this and how she addressed Virixas during the Reef Wars. [quote]The Queen's ship broadcasts. I AM NOBLE TOO, she says, OH LORD OF WOLVES.[/quote] She at least acknowledges that he was of Eliksni Nobility and spoke to him as the Lord of Wolves. To her, Oryx is a beast who only claims to be King. And even though the Hive as a whole have very savage war tactics, Mara still would've known how sophisticated and complex their culture actually was with Eris constantly whispering in her ear. "Beast" is an insult aimed at Oryx alone. Petra's quote came only one year after she had those Guardians killed. Not even a full year had passed after this devastating incident before she felt she deserved to have her voice heard and respected in the [i]Home[/i] of the people she killed. Her pride is unbelievable, and is rooted in the fact that's she's from the Reef and an agent if the Queen. Even when she needed help in the Taken wars, she wouldn't "Go begging". Even after the relationship she had formed with the Guardians during the Wolf rebellion, she still refuses to lower herself to their level to ask for their help. And it doesn't matter if its culture shock, if anything that says more about the Reef's culture being just as stuck up and full of themselves than it does about Petra and her enormous pride. Petra doesn't have the slightest inkling as to where the City's place in the world is, she just thinks she does because she's Reef trash. Skolas's title was officially Skolas, the Rabid. The Queen send the Nine a Rabid Wolf as a gift with a "reminder" that the Crows (what had trespassed on the Nine's territory) were her's. She was saying she would use [i]her[/i] crows to do whatever [i]she[/i] wanted, because [i]she[/i] was the Queen. Skolas was a prize of the Queen because he was an example of those who stand against her will. The level of gall and disrespect that came with the implication of that gift are unreal. Considering how Skolas describes the Reef as the Wolves' "masters" and "the slavers who played us against each other and docked us into subservience." I'd say [i]slave[/i] is an apt description. Julius Caesar was also a dictator who was assassinated by close friends because the people feared his goals were aiming too high and he would attempt to overthrow the Senate. I don't think he's the best example of "Hey, he had a book too!" to make the Queen look good. As for the Books of Sorrow, those were about the Hive's history, not specifically just about Oryx and his journey. If it was, then obviously there'd be a considerable ego behind it. An ego that he could easily back up with literal myrieteries of navigating/exploring/conquering known and unknown space, but still ego none the less. There's nothing wrong with expending your kingdom, but pretending like you did so to help another kingdom is disingenuous. And there's nothing wrong with Mara using Guardians to fix her mess, never said it was. The fact that she made said mess is another thing entirely. The plan to kill Oryx was Eris's idea. The idea to use the Guardian (through manipulation via Eris's guidance, rather than just asking for help.) was all Mara Sov. The Vanguard would've undoutably pitched in if asked, seeing as they were already planning how they were going to tackle the problem. The only difference would have been that the City would've known what was motivating the Reef, something the Queen wasn't going to have because it ruins her whole "mysterious ruler" facade she has going, as well as the fact that it takes away their ability to claim that their sacrifice was done solely for the benefit of the City. Yeah, it benefited them, but that's manipulation and furthering ulterior motives, both signs that the Queen shouldn't be trusted.

I still see literally nothing wrong with calling Oryx a beast. He's a [i]conquering invader[/i]. And on top of that, he's the dictatorial leader of a society that shows absolutely zero mercy whatsoever. I like Oryx, but when you look at him from an outside perspective, he is a sociopathic monster; regardless of his intelligence. I would've called him a "beast" too. I would've also called him a great deal of other things as well. Things that get blammed here on Bungie.net. The Queen treated Virixas with more respect because he's, I don't know, not responsible for billions of extinctions? He was a Fallen, and as we seem to be exploring in Forsaken, his race isn't exactly malicious. #FallenLivesMatter Lol. OK. Petra's quote came 1 year after the event. Still, I don't see much of a problem with it. She's begging her Queen to come back from exile and she admits what happened was wrong. She didn't intend for Guardians to die, but she made a horrible miscalculation. Okay. I think you're looking way to much into Petra. None of those feelings or thoughts you claim she had were represented in the Grimoire card you referenced. It's you interpreting her that way because you have a predisposed bias against her. Yes, she likely does know the City's place. Let me repeat, Awoken have dreams and visions that are blatantly true. If Petra had a vision about someone, that vision would most definitely be real. We must assume these visions affect Reef culture as everyone "knows their place" because they all literally know their destiny. Culture shock is real and shouldn't exactly be put to the side. That's what Petra was feeling. That's why she wanted to go home. Culture shock is like being at a party you know you don't belong in and you feel super awkward, only you bump that feeling up to 10 and you can never escape the party. You never have a reprieve. They never stated the Queen's intentions with Skolas. You are assuming that. I assumed her intentions in my post. We can't get a definitive answer about this until they give us Mara's direct thoughts on the matter. Which they'll never do. At least not about Skolas. You call Mara out for being biased. I'm gonna call Skolas out too. He's a [i]very[/i] biased individual. He uses many hyperboles and metaphors and exaggerations throughout his speeches. At the absolute worst, the Wolves were indentured servants (which is not slavery) and at the best, they were second class citizens. Slavery is directly contradicted in-game with Mara's little speech. I doubt she'd lie so obviously and blatantly. And this was a D1 Y1 campaign. I [i]highly doubt[/i] Bungie made use of an unreliable narrator. I wasn't using Julius Caesar as an example to make the Queen look good. I was using him as an example of an ambitious leader. I've said before that I do not think Mara is a "good" person. I like her as a character similar to how I like Julius Caesar or Augustus or Pompeius. I'm not judging them by their morals. I never said the Queen should be trusted. (I did say we should trust her Grimoire, as those are her personal thoughts, but not her character) Cayde would agree with me. He had an entire card during HoW spelling out why we shouldn't trust her.