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12/7/2017 7:56:08 AM
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Ben Shapiro: The Cool Kids Philosopher

https://static.currentaffairs.org/2017/12/the-cool-kids-philosopher Very interesting article, if you have an open mind and respect facts at all I implore you to read it. Here's an excerpt from the Trans point, because that seems to be the most often debated in this forum. [quote]I’d like, then, to closely examine how Shapiro destroys a liberal argument, in order to see his famous method at work. Let’s look at how Shapiro “debunks transgenderism.” When a student questioner confronted Shapiro about his belief that transgender women should not be considered women, here’s the argument he gave in defense of the position: [i]You’re not a man if you think you’re a man…. As far as the actual psychological issues at play, it used to be called gender identity disorder; now they call it gender dysphoria. The idea that sex or gender is malleable is not true. I’m not denying your humanity if you are a transgender person; I am saying that you are not the sex which you claim to be. [I]f you’re going to dictate to me that I’m supposed to pretend, I’m supposed to pretend that men are women and women are men, no. My answer is no. I’m not going to modify basic biology because it threatens your subjective sense of what you are.[/i] When the questioner replied to suggest that transgender people just wanted to fit in, Shapiro hit her with a burst of Stone Cold Logic. After asking her how old she was, he asked her why she wasn’t a different age. Answer: because age is a fact not a choice. Then he asked her why she didn’t just change her species: SHAPIRO: If I call you a moose, are you suddenly a moose? If I redefine our terms… YOUNG WOMAN: That’s a completely different thing. SHAPIRO: Yes, that’s right. Men and women are a completely different thing. This is true. Have you ever met a man or a woman? They are completely different. Shapiro’s position on transgender people is very simple then. He rejects “the pseudo-scientific nonsense that a man can magically turn into a woman,” because it is no different than thinking an undergraduate can turn into a moose. Shapiro says that “individuals who believe they are a different sex than that of their biology are psychologically ill—self-evidently so” and has compared the idea of being transgender to his schizophrenic grandfather who thought the curtains were speaking to him. But for a man who loves Logical Argumentation and would never “mischaracterize his opponents’ positions,” Shapiro doesn’t actually seem to grasp what the left argument about gender actually is, or what it is he’s actually supposed to be disproving. Here is the actual argument that is made: the traditional conception held by people like Shapiro has treated “sex” and “gender” as synonymous. You’re either a man or a woman. Which one you are is defined by your chromosomes. And because chromosomes are part of biology, and can’t be altered, you can—as Shapiro says—no more change your sex/gender through your state of mind than you could change your age. There are men and there are women[/quote] [quote]The argument made by the left is that this simple story doesn’t account for something important: in the real world, we don’t form our understanding of whether someone is a man or a woman by their chromosomes. Instead, we form it by how they look and act. What people mean when they say that “gender is a social construct” is not that “chromosomes are a social construct” but that in practice, gender isn’t reducible to chromosomes. In the two pictures above, the person on the left is actually a transgender man and the person on the right is actually a transgender woman. It would seem strange to call the person on the left a “woman” and the person on the right a “man,” because the fact that we associate gender with “masculinity” and “femininity” rather than just “chromosomes” means those words don’t seem to fit those people very well. This is the reason why people started to draw a distinction between “sex” and “gender,” with sex referring to the biological component and gender referring to those qualities that seem much more fluid. Transgender people do not “think they are a different sex.” Instead, they realize that their “gender” doesn’t match their sex. As a transgender person explained in response to Shapiro, “most of the trans people I know, including myself, are under no delusion about what we were born as or what biological sex we are, we just feel uncomfortable with the features of our biological sex and seek treatment, usually, to alter those features and minimize our dysphoria.” The dysphoria is not the “delusional belief that you don’t have a penis when you in fact do.” It’s the distress that comes from feeling like a member of the “female” gender despite having the “male” sex, or vice versa. The argument being made is that the existing way we classify sex/gender is not adequately describing the actual fact, which is that because gender captures more than just chromosomes, the traditional terminology causes confusion and needs revising. Scott Alexander has a poignant and funny essay explaining why categories like “male” and “female” are malleable and why we should adjust them depending on the goals we’re trying to accomplish: [i]In no case can an agreed-upon set of borders or a category boundary be factually incorrect. An alternative categorization system is not an error… Just as we can come up with criteria for a definition of “planet”, we can come up with a definition of “man”. Absolutely typical men have Y chromosomes, have male genitalia, appreciate manly things like sports and lumberjackery, are romantically attracted to women, personally identify as male, wear male clothing like blue jeans, sing baritone in the opera, et cetera. Some people satisfy some criteria of manhood and not others, in much the same way that Pluto satisfies only some criteria of planethood… For example, gay men might date other men and behave in effeminate ways. People with congenital androgen insensitivity syndrome might have female bodies, female external genitalia, and have been raised female their entire life, but when you look into their cells they have Y chromosomes. Most people seem to assume that the ultimate tiebreaker in man vs. woman questions is presence of a Y chromosome. I’m not sure this is a very principled decision, because I expect most people would classify congenital androgen insensitivity patients (XY people whose bodies are insensitive to the hormone that makes them look male, and so end up looking 100% female their entire lives and often not even knowing they have the condition) as women. The project of the transgender movement is to propose a switch from using chromosomes as a tiebreaker to using self-identification as a tiebreaker. [/i] Shapiro thinks being transgender is a mental illness, just as he believes homosexuality should still be considered a mental illness (and was only taken off the list thanks to “pressure group influence”). But mental illness is another situation where the classifications we choose are choices: homosexuality does not “inherently” fit in the category of mental illness; a society decides what it wants to call “illness.” And since there seemed to be very little good to come from calling some perfectly ordinary human trait an “illness,” all this did was create unnecessary stigma. Likewise, it was decided that there was no reason to see “believing your gender identity to be different than your biological sex” an illness, so the DSM was revised accordingly, to focus on what did actually seem a problem, namely the distress this can lead to. Gender and sex are complicated topics. There are a lot of unanswered questions (e.g. What is identity? Should gender be entirely subjective? What are the differences between racial and gender identity?) All of these, though, are attempts to work out how we should revise our categories in the way that best reflects the human reality and allows us to talk coherently. The traditional categories were just too simple to capture the more complicated facts of how gender actually works. (Actually, Shapiro himself inadvertently proved this. In discussing why he would never recognize Laverne Cox as a woman, Shapiro accidentally referred to Cox as “she” before quickly correcting himself. Why did he slip? Because Laverne Cox does seem like a woman, based on how the category “woman” is applied socially, and it feels weird to call her a man. Even Shapiro’s subconscious is telling him that transgender people should be referred to by the gender they present as rather than by their biological sex.) Shapiro isn’t interested in discussing any of this seriously. Just look at how he distorted his questioner’s response about moose: he says “Why aren’t you a moose?” and when she replies “That’s different,” he interjects “That’s right, men and women are different.” She clearly said that species and gender are different (which they are, in that there’s a good argument for revising one of the categories but not for revising the other). But he tried to convince his audience that she had essentially conceded his point, by seizing on and spinning the word “difference.” (We call this “sophistry” rather than “logic.”)[/quote]Cont.
English
#Offtopic

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  • Shapiro also compared affording Healthcare to buying expensive furniture. I wish this 12 year old pubescent boy would go away, he's not relevant in any way, just a shock Queen.

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  • When a transgender person says transgenderism is a mental disorder.

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    • I can't wait for Shapiro to shred this argument into little pieces and make some liberals cry

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      • In practice, gender is reducible to biology. This article is a complete load. If every person with gender dysphoria was able to "pull off" their illusion so convincingly that you'd need a DNA test to "know" then they might have a point, but that isn't the case. Ben Shapiro had a point. I can't just up and decide I'm 90 years old, or that I'm a moose, or that I'm a woman. No amount of make up, costumes, or dresses can change that.

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        • Ben Shapiro may be my spirit animal

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        • I really like Shapiro... he’s logical, a feminist (not the crazy kind), and most importantly able to criticize his own party.

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          • Something else I'd like to address: people "destroying" liberals are typically the type who obnoxiously talk over and interrupt an opponent who hasn't the slightest of ideas on how to defend themselves anyways. Like LaVar Ball dunking on (and fouling) a 9-year old who hasn't ever played basketball before. Because let's face it: the random person on the street, liberal or conservative, is likely going to be a complete moron when it comes to logical thinking. They are literally incapable of formulating logical responses to any queries they receive. Shapiro himself would get destroyed against someone reasonably intelligent who is actually capable of exposing his straw-men. (not to mention in a moderated, civil debate where he couldn't be obnoxious or interrupt the other person) He beats morons in arguments. Not much to be proud about.

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            • Ben Shapiro is a wimp. There is a video of a tranny threatening him and he almost shits his pants.

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              • [b][i][u]I WISH THAT I COULD BE LIKE THE COOl KIDS![/u][/i][/b]

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                • Editado por KillSelf: 12/8/2017 2:00:19 PM
                  [quote]Ben Shapiro[/quote] [quote]Philosopher[/quote] Lol

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                • You know, I've never had a particularly high opinion of Shapiro, but LOL @ some of the stuff in that article. He really is a loon.

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                  • hahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

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                  • For some reason ever since the transgender debate resurged recently a bunch of creationists seem to have become scientists when debating it. Not really on topic I just find it interesting that the biology argument applies to gender but not evolution for some people

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                    • His sister is hot.

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                      • TLDR, especially if it's about Shatpiro

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                        • TFW you have an open mind read the article and still think he's a complete idiot!

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                        • Editado por Section Ratio General: 12/7/2017 10:16:33 PM
                          tl;dr: [spoiler] Please don't compare psychology of the mind to human biology. Psychology is a soft science and Biology is a hard science. Psychology explains important concepts that Biology can't explain, and Biology explains things that have been discovered through research. Shapiro needs to understand this before he actually tries to say something he has little to no knowledge in. [/spoiler] I like how Shapiro mentioned gender as a psychological aspect and I like how he addressed the audience that believes that psychology is malleable, but then completely forgets about that and starts railing the student questioner about sex. For the most part, he's right about sex not being malleable. The sex of a person cannot be changed, because a person born with a Y chromosome is typically a male (though, in the rare cases of intersex, that's a very different and [u]much more[/u] complicated scenario). Though, when he said that someone can't really change their psychology and that psychology isn't malleable, he kind of just lost me there since at that point, I kind of figured out from the biological and psychological POV, he has no idea about what he's talking about. He used basic high school biology correctly, but he completely shredded his own perception of psychology, and also sociology, somehow. I understand that he's a "lawyer", or used to be one, so I won't question him about laws pertaining to federal government, or states, or whatever, because that's not my forte. My forte is biology and psychology, so I'm going to question him on that. Psychology and Biology work hand-in-hand, yes. But for someone to staunchly say that they're the same thing, I guarantee that they don't know what they're talking about. While both work together, to equate Biology to Psychology is just plain ignorant. Biology (in this case, human) focuses more on the hard science of what has been discovered and researched. It provides the, for the most part, objective details of how life around us works, regulates itself, and how life is sustained, or goes extinct, and so on. Human Biology discusses stuff such as metabolism, bodily processes, anatomy of the body part, but it does not cover in great detail the brain processes of things such as thought, perception, or decision making, etc. It will cover it, but not at the level of detail that Psychology, and the relatively new field of science, Cognitive Neuroscience, covers these topics. Psychology pertains to, for the most part, the brain, effects of disorders on the brain that affect the human body, and in general, more of the soft science part of how humans interact with the world around them. Along with Cognitive Neuroscience (essentially, brain science), these topics cover things that aren't overly emphasized in a Biology class, a Chemistry Class, or any hard science class, because the science of thought and perception is too subjective and is open to interpretation, hence the malleability of soft sciences. Both are great and work off of each others' strengths. But, both are not equal, and both do not study the same exact things. Biology can cover things such as disease spreading, genetics, but again, [u]it does not cover thought process, cognitive function, or anything as subjective as an issue like gender dysphoria[/u]. I enjoy the content I learned from my time as a Bio major in college because it provided me extra information about a subject I am passionate about, and I am glad that I picked up Psychology as a minor because I was just as interested in learning about how people function on a more subjective level rather than "this person has this condition because of this specific signalling cascade response in the cell". He's also being extremely facetious when he tries to compare a moose to a human and then saying that men and women are not the same. The reason why I say that Shapiro is being extremely facetious is because a moose is a completely different species from a human. It's kind of like me comparing Shapiro to something like a sea cucumber, or a gorilla. Both are different species from humans, and it would just be flat out idiotic if I tried to compare him to another different species. Men and women, for the most part of their development cycle, were similar until around the time when the sex organs started diverging the two apart. That's why an embryo at 8 weeks for a male human and a female human are indistinguishable. But, to bring it back to the point, he is using Biology incorrectly to try and prove something that is subjective and not a hard science. When Shapiro said that transgender/gender dysphoria is a mental illness, he was technically correct - If this was back in the 1980's, around the same time when people thought that homosexuality was a mental disorder. It's 2017, and the DSM-V along with the APA does not consider gender dysphoria as a mental disorder, since gender dysphoria does not even fit one of the big prerequisites of being a mental disorder: Causing the person harm to their mental well-being or physical well-being. Simply being transgender isn't harmful to a person. The societal part of it is what can potentially harm someone who is transgender. For example, if someone transgender was living in some backwater hick town in the Deep South of America and grew up in a conservative household that is extremely anti-LGBT, then they have a higher chance of being subjected to mental and physical abuse than let's say someone who is transgender in a city that is pro-LGBT and very welcoming to someone. Simply being transgender DOES NOT cause harm to someone physically or mentally, but the environment around them (the nurture aspect) is what determines it. I sincerely hope Shapiro will take time to understand this, since this is basic first semester Psychology material. I would be glad to sit down and have a civil debate with Shapiro about this from someone who has a background in Biology and Psychology, though, I don't think that a "civil debate" would actually ever happen between us two. I've seen how he tries to make things go his way, by attacking not only the person asking the question, but also completely misconstruing the argument to make it fit his narrative, much like a lawyer or politician does. It's kind of like that old saying that the only time a politician is ever honest is whenever they shut up.

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                          • Also, you misspelled the last word.

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                          • Editado por iReactivv: 12/8/2017 1:44:41 AM
                            https://youtu.be/WMd5zsVXFX4 quote @ 3:25

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                            • Shapiro certainly understands all of that and leftists do not argue about transgenderism like this article does. I've never heard an advocate admit any of the concessions this author gave.

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                              • http://sitn.hms.harvard.edu/flash/2016/gender-lines-science-transgender-identity/ Here is a study on transgenders.

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                              • A psychological condition must be normalised because it is negatively stigmatised when considered a psychological illness. Am I correct to summarize one of the articles assertions as such?

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                                • Bump this shit like I bump Smashmouth with the windows down

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                                • I really have a hard time understanding these types of arguments. If you wish to call yourself a transgender so be it, as long as you don't use compulsory means to force your agenda on other individuals who wish to not associate with you.

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                                  • I downvoted just so you could have 0 points. [b][i]oof[/i][/b]

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                                  • Yeah it was obvious from the start that he was creating and addressing a straw man argument. I don't know whether it's deliberate or if he's just not getting it.

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