Three things have happened in the last couple of weeks that have really helped to crystallize in my mind why the changes to Destiny 2 have been so poorly received by the hardcore community. Especially on the PVE side of the game.
First Slayerage's video and his comedic take on the Kinetic/Energy/Power weapon system. Jon Weisznewski's interview with Crucible Radio.....and finally, the XP throttling incident.
To make a long story short, Weisznewski and his sandbox team (by their own admission during the interview) made a CONSCIOUS decision to LIMIT player access to "powerful" (high-burst damage) weapons, in the belief that doing so would "improve the game" on BOTH the PVP and PVE side of the game.
This was a CRITICAL error in judgement. One that shows a fundamental misunderstanding of the nature of the game, and what motivates the typical player to play it on the PVE side of the game. A pattern of critical errors that Weisznewski seems to be prone to. As a result of this decision, a host of supporting changes were made to the game, almost all of which have proven to be highly polarizing, and mostly unpopular in PVE.
IOW, We're playing a game in which we have been----purposefully----DPS Throttled. We are---quilte literally----WEAKER than we were in Destiny 1. In every aspect of play.
This has proven to be highly unpopular for several reasons:
1. It cuts right at the heart of the power-fantasy (super-hero x warrior-angel) that lies at the root of the PVE side of the game. Instead, for 90% of pve play, we are little more than generic space marines.
2. It cuts right at the heart of the need for power-progression that drives play in loot-based RPGs....which is what this game IS, at its foundation. Despite Bungie's efforts to make it play more like a campaign shooter.
3. The changes----along with the alteration of cooldowns, ability strength, and ammo economy----has resulted in a very stilted, and one-dimensional style of play on both sides of the game. Because other options have been purposefully cut off.
4. The changes make it difficult to introduce more powerful weapons into the game, because you've grouped so many different kinds of weapons in the power slot (in the name of limiting OHKs in PvP). So---that they all can theoretically see some usage----their damage profiles have been severly flattened out. IOW, the supposed power weapons, are also underpowered. (A point that I couldn't quite put my finger on as to why, until Slayerage talked about what effects dropping one or two very powerful weapons into the mix would likely have on the rest of the lootpool.)
Bottomline, at this point the changes to the gear system are baked in to the game.
But until Bungie finds a way to roll back this DPS throttling....they can make all the changes to incentives, and loot, and the game's economy all they want. They'll just be treating the symptoms of what's wrong....and not getting to the root of the problem.
Bungie. You need to stop running away from the fact that this game is an RPG. Its not a very deep one....at times its not even a very GOOD one...but it is still part RPG.
And every time you try to walk away from that fact----and away from the reasons why 60% of your player base plays this game-----you make critical errors that rile up the community. A community that thought we had settled this issue with the changes made to the game for "The Taken King".....
...only to have Destiny 2 take this momumental---and poorly considered---leap backwards.
The Masterwork tier of weapons is a potentially good first step to loosening this DPS throttle....but it is only a first step.
YOU HAVE TO GO FARTHER. MUCH FARTHER.
Even if it means doing the thing you don't want to do. Seperating PVE from PVP.
You can't have a balanced shooter and a loot-based RPG sharing the same loot system. The needs of the two are incompatible, and one will wind up destroying the other.
...and right now PVP balance is slowly strangling the loot-based RPG.
English
#feedback
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5 RespuestasEditado por RageAgainst014: 12/27/2017 5:02:02 AMLoot is the problem though. As many people have commented. What is the point of any other auto rifle outside of uriels or origin story? Why do they even exist?...I have a sins of the past, by far the best rocket launcher. I understand it can take a few rng drops to get,but curtain call isn't. Curtain call is pretty much just as good, and the drop rate is rediculous. Same can be said for last hope, antiope d and many other weapons. I literally spend most of my time deleting the same weapons over and over because as I stated, no auto rifle will out perform uriels in pve or pvp, so why do any of them even exist in the game...uriels isn't even hard to get. Not like I have to grind for it, get like 10 Uriel drops a week....this is a huge issue with loot
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28 RespuestasEditado por TheShadow-cali: 12/4/2017 7:35:40 PMI'm impressed and this is not me being sarcastic. As long as this company keeps heading in the direction they are, things will not change for the better. Gamers are tired of this company trying to think they can balance a game that was never created to be balanced. IMO, until this company grasp that concept and stops this nonsense thinking they can balance this entire game revolving around PVP. PvE will always suffer and it's unfair to PvE gamer's...
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1 RespuestaI still believe pvp shouldnt be in destiny, and should have never been in destiny. As you said pvp and pve hurt eachother. A balanced pvp is a boring pve and a fun pve is an unbalanced pvp. From a lore perspective pvp felt very forced. It quite litteraly gets the worst out of the community aswell and it promotes cheating (pc bans as an example). Besides i cant say with certainty without knowing the numbers that most people bought destiny because of its pve, and if all the attention could go to pve we wouldnt have most of these issues were we dont have a power fantasy.
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4 RespuestasThat is certainly a part of the problem. The good news is this is the easiest problem to fix. It can be done entirely within the existing weapons architecture. Doing so will give a more robust set of arms that D1 had at its best. Nothing prevents creation of new guns with the powerful stats needed to make the correction or adjust the balance of existing ones. It’s entirely a matter of whether they have the will. Same applies for fixing abilities. The second of what I identify as 3 problems is in PvP. 4v4 is not really the problem. It is pace of play. The weapons/ability changes could - but would unlike make a difference. It’s a matter of the maps and game modes imposing a certain pace and style of play. Again, this is not that hard to fix, though it would be more time consuming unless they just ported old maps. It’s a matter of will. Again. The third problem is the hardest. They have doubled down on a cosmetic endgame and place that endgame behind a RNG lootbox paywall. Bungie fanbois get bent out about complaints responding that “it’s only cosmetic.” It doesn’t matter that they are cosmetics, it matters that this is the endgame. It’s worsened by the extent to which they removed whole aspects of the original game to force this contrived “economy” on players with the only apparent benefit to drive the pay to win mechanism. It may not affect power/capabilities, but it is every bit “pay to win.” Eva Levante is gone and so are her supporting kiosks. “Shader-gate” is a part of this point. Amanda Holliday might as well be as gone as are her supporting kiosks. The silver dust kiosk - a reasonable response to D1 concerns about Eververse - is gone. Goods from all the above which used to be rewards for play are gone. All funneled now into a vendor whose interface is centered on purchasing loot boxes. This last bit of anger is not going to change. If Bungie does try and focus on “hobbyists” this is going to get worse, not better. Where they go on this is what will truly be the make-or-break for Destiny.
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3 RespuestasHow to reward players 101: Item could be unique, rare, or both - think of items like Gjallarhorn, VoG helmet, Crux of Crota, god rolled weapons. Item is better than what I have - having noticeably better stats will give a sense of progression, and even offering multiple PvE-only perks in Destiny's case could increase that feeling of power Currency - There's little worth consistently spending in-game currency on and none of the 3 currencies - glimmer, marks, tokens - are overly plentiful which makes their accruance near meaningless. All the balance for PvP negates any feeling of power or progression. Too much loot throughout the game negates any feeling of an item being rare and static rolls that number too few removes that feeling of uniqueness. Nothing of note to "save" currency for removes any sense of accomplishment and only cheapens the currency. Masterworks are an ok start, but those weapons [i]need[/i] a massive boost to damage potential to give any sense of power and worthiness of chasing them or the "perfect roll."
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Editado por UltraCon79: 12/6/2017 6:59:47 PMThere should be a separate vault for PVP and PVE and a switchable loadout so that you can hit a key in your character sheet and instantly change into your PVP gear
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Other than seperating pve from atleast the competitive pvp I don't see this being fixed, maybe pve specific mods to improve dps?
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Sorry but for me THE LOOT is a problem, not entirely but it is a problem. Same shit drops for us all and we end up with shards. If I get the same weapon drop twice in a row there is no feeling of Oooo maybe this one has some different and decent perks than the last one I got. NO its an automatic delete. Like I said, the loot is not the entire issue in D2 but it is an issue. IMO... Also, not to be rude OP but do you not normally suck Bungie's dick?
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Loot is def the issue, you pick up one and then have to wait 10 mins to get anything out of another. Also the reward loot is so low it makes events not worth the time
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11 RespuestasNice to see you getting some love around here, kellygreen. lol Although, I'm sure there are some 'principal' down-votes. Completely agree with you, btw. And nothing here is different than what I've seen you say on the forums before...
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14 RespuestasOk...what’s your endgame here? I’m suspicious of posts like these, not because it’s wrong (hell, it’s 100% spot on), but because of your post history, and you clashing with people who may fundamentally agree with this.
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4 RespuestasEditado por Crunchyblack: 12/4/2017 6:19:51 PMLoot is the issue. Weapon load outs are the issue. Both are major issues that need to be fixed. Weapons are static and boring across the board and any drop after the first one doesnt matter. That sucks and needs to be fixed. Also they might as well remove shotguns/swords/snipers/fusion There is NOTHING wrong with a power weapon slot AND an explosive weapon slot....the most interesting weapons are never used because its pointless to do so when explosives are an option...and DO NOT RUIN EXPLOSIVES those are actually fun to use. Watch they nerf rockets into the ground. Honestly being able to build a set of gear around close combat with shotguns, melee, or sniping would just add another layer of depth to the game. I also feel the ammo for non launcher power weapons is far too sparse for how strong they actually are....each non launcher weapon comes with its own inherent drawback, which is what makes the unique, and potentially powerful if built around.... Really two of the mind blowingly stupid design choices in this game front and center in this thread.
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5 RespuestasAh see Kelly, I disagree on your title. The loot is a problem. The loot we have access to for the most part is boring, bland, uninspiring and pointless. The loot that is good is very limited. Just run a Better Devils, Uriel's Gift, Curtain Call. You can use that loadout for every single piece of D2 content. Thus, you have no reason to ever farm for anything else. And the mere fact you can get all that stuff to drop for you just beating the main campaign means you have no reason to run any endgame content. Without the need to run endgame content, you don't need to be power level 260 let alone 305, without a reason to grind to that point the only reason to continue playing through all of the content is fun. Fun is subjective. So the loot is a problem. It's too easy to acquire and 90% of it is absolute garbage.
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3 RespuestasTHIS IS WHAT WE HAVE BEEN TRYING TO TELL YOU
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2 RespuestasHmm I seem to remember you telling me to "get gud" because I made some of the points you have made yourself. Interesting.
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23 Respuestas[quote] The Masterwork tier of weapons is a potentially good first step to loosening this DPS throttle....but it is only a first step.[/quote] Masterwork weapons don't even begin to address the restricted DPS man. If they did, they'd also grant an advantage in PVP in terms of slightly reduced TTK which would lead to imbalance vs. NON-masterwork weapons. Effectively, they'd be creating the same problems in D1 with godrolls vs. non-godrolls. Except MUCH less exciting, since instead of having the opportunity to get your own god roll, you have to try to get the same'ol weapon that is a masterwork - and ONE of those random statrolls is going to come out and be more dominant than the others (albeit probably slightly). The bottom line is that they designed THIS game to be a traditional FPS. I don't think they can reverse-engineer this game into playing like an RPG/Looter/Power fantasy game. It's just not in the game's DNA, and since PVP is their top priority (Per the State of Destiny 2 blog), I don't think they're going to risk doing any harm to PVP balance at this point. THIS is how they wanted PVP to play ALL along in D1. And from all the nerfs in D1, they learned that THIS is the way things MUST be in order for the game to play like that. Until they stop imposing their own archaeic vision of PVP on the community, or until they separate PVE from PVP (I would argue partial separation to separate only the competitive arena and let casual be anything goes), discussions about what they could and could not do to improve the game are moot. The bottom line here is that today, this game STILL suffers from a number of MAJOR issues that plagued D1. The most relevant issue here being the failure to separate PVE from PVP. It was a huge issue in the first game, and you would THINK that they would have been aware of the problem after Y2/Y3 of D1. In fact, when they announced that all our stuff would not carry forward in D2, the ONE thing that made this notion acceptable in my mind was if they needed to reboot the game in order to separate PVE from PVP. However, that couldn't have been further from the truth, and when they didn't address the issue at DRE, I knew they were in trouble.
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2 RespuestasBumped. I have been arguing for a separation of PvE from PvP, by whatever means, for some time. All the loot in the world will not solve the problems we have in D2 whilst all of that loot is much of a muchness. We will have to wait and see what the introduction of Masterwork weapons will bring but I am very concerned that it will be no where near enough in terms of difference. In the screenshot of a Masterworks Uriels it showed the reload speed being increased by 10. As the reload speed is shown as a bar what is the increase as a percentage of the total .? I sincerely hope that this will not be similar to the XP situation. I hope we don’t get a minuscule increase making no real difference but it is sold to us as ‘Look we are listening’ PR exercise. I am reserving judgement for the moment. Very good post by the way
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2 RespuestasMy only bone of contention with this analysis is this part: [quote]To make a long story short, Weisznewski and his sandbox team (by their own admission during the interview) made a CONSCIOUS decision to LIMIT player access to "powerful" (high-burst damage) weapons, in the belief that doing so would "improve the game" on BOTH the PVP and PVE side of the game.[/quote] Weisnewski didn't believe the changes would benefit both PvP and PvE. He believed they'd benefit PvP, and didn't care about anything beyond that. [i]That[/i] is the pattern we've seen from him over and over again. Everything else here is spot on, but you'll never convince me that his rhetoric about PvE is anything other than an attempted justification after the fact.
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7 RespuestasHoly shit...never thought I would see the day that Kelly could not defend a Bungie decision... Bump from me. [quote]You can't have a balanced shooter and a loot-based RPG sharing the same loot system. The needs of the two are incompatible, and one will wind up destroying the other.[/quote] That is the only thing I really object to, and it is because I do not think this has actually ever been attempted in this type of environment. D1 had problems with balance, but it was less about the perks and more about the overall stats of the gun within the gunclass that broke it. Sure you had the exceptions (Shot package on a Felwinter's for example), but the fact that so many HC's for the first two years (and a few into the third) were competing at distance with your typical scout rifle was an issue. AR's, like the Regime in Year 1, that could cross map was an issue. If Bungie could keep the gun classes within their specified ranges - HC's = Close to Mid, AR's = Close to Mid, PR's = Mid to Distance, Scout's = Distance, etc etc - then that is an actual start to the balance here. Sure there may be issues with perks, but as we witnessed in D1, Bungie can modify the perk pools for specific gun classes (i.e. taking final round out of potential perks for snipers). They can have their cake and eat it to so to speak, but Bungie really needs to stop creating meta's because 1 kinetic/elemental weapon is the best for almost any given situation [i]*cough* *cough* [b]Uriel's[/b] *cough* *cough*.[/i]
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Editado por ReaperBlack_201: 12/5/2017 8:15:21 AMkelly turned against Bungie, The end is near...
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Flip/flop..flip/flop.. D2 is FUBAR.
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1 RespuestaAt least you could say: SORRY for being wrong all this time.
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2 RespuestasFirst you tell people to stop complaining, because the “house is already on fire,” then you write this? The -blam!- is wrong with you?? Pick a side or step aside
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85 RespuestasEditado por Lord Kielron: 12/4/2017 4:29:20 PMKelly....this is exactly the type of thing a lot of us have been calling for, but we were unjustly branded as haters and told to leave the forums, often times by you yourself. Do not get me wrong here, I absolutely agree with this topic, except for the masterworks part. I just don’t feel it does enough It’s just that being ridiculed for months now for having this opinion, only to have you support that opinion now just leaves a bad taste. Just feels as if all that bs we were being subjected to was easily avoidable...
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Editado por Orpheus49: 12/4/2017 10:12:22 PMSo basically the loot is the problem, i hope u realize you just went against urself. Great post I hope you see that we have been saying all this all along
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1 RespuestaYou realize you are the herald of the end the times right? When you of all people make a post like this the game and the world is truly done for. Seriously man I just called the devil and he's trying to get his heater fixed. To think that only three weeks ago we had an argument around your point 3. I'm now going to quit work, grow a beard, walk around with a 'The End Is Coming' sign and drink myself to death.