Evening KC, was at work and couldn't really respond earlier. [quote][quote]The fact is it's frustrating dying to anything[/quote] No, it's not. Anyone who thinks such needs to take a step back and rethink their life choices. [quote]And why are sticky grenades suddenly an issue?[/quote] They've always been an issue because OHKs are always annoying when you're not expecting them.[/quote] These two answers directly contradict each other. My point is that every single thing that kills in this game will be annoying to someone. You can't say that people need to rethink their life if they're irritated by getting killed and then call ohks annoying lol. Point is, it's all opinion and they will never please everyone, so they need to make this game their vision and stop reworking it every time someone gets frustrated dying. [quote][quote]Datto didn't like our Sunsingers, they frustrated him.[/quote] Maybe Datto was the the trigger to get the masses to start bitching, as you're trying to do here, but Sunsinger DoT has always been known to be oppressively strong and unfun.[/quote] Sunsingers DoT has not always been known to be oppressively strong and unfun. That's a generality, not a fact and there were probably just as many people who logged on every day just because they loved their Sunsingers so much. [quote][quote]Dr Lupo and TW didn't like sbmm, playing equal competition frustrated them.[/quote] Some people don't like playing seriously all the same. That's why most modern games have ranked and unranked playlists. SBMM essentially forced people into one or the other. Plus the complaints (even among people here) of "muh connections," "muh redbar warriors."[/quote] To the ranked/unranked, that's kinda why ToO exists, so the players that want to be über competitive can go play there. The problem with people like Dr Lupo saying he hated sbmm because he wants to have fun and relax when he plays with his wife and don't we want him to have fun, is that how much fun does his wife have getting pub stomped all the time instead of just teamed with him? Also connections did not improve as some of us tried to tell them they wouldn't. There are too many other factors in play. [quote][quote]Nerf stickies now, but then how fair is axion tracking? Isn't it frustrating being chased across the map by seekers?[/quote] For something that you can get twice a minute, the amount of tracking time is incredibly ridiculous because there is nothing you can do about it once you get pinged, short of manning up and taking the damage or running away.[/quote] It's a crowd control grenade. Always has been and it excels at it as it should. Just like DoTs used to. An axion bolt doesn't just finish weakened opponents, it buys you time to heal, reload, find better ground, etc [quote][quote]Then Lightning Grenades will have to go because it's frustrating that I can't recognize that I just got hit by a pulse and step 2 feet to either side.[/quote] Lightning Grenades are frustrating because they a) pulse immediately on landing taking out more than half your health, b) do way more damage per tick than any other area of denial grenade, effectively making them direct damage, and c) have a damage cone not accurately reflected by the graphic.[/quote] I've died to Lightning Grenades by far the least of any popular grenade since launch. They're an area control grenade and again, excel at what they're intended to do, but unless you're getting one pulse and one to the dome, they're not hard to survive as there's more than enough time to get out of the way before the second pulse [quote]Now I'm not calling for anything to be nerfed because the game is the game and I have to be good at it regardless of what Bungie does. But a lot of this shit is fundamentally unfun when it becomes a core part of the game, much like how you can forgive one 360 noscope because hey, that's cool, but if the entire game you're getting noscoped and can't do anything about it you're going to get pissed off because [b]that's just not how the game is supposed to play.[/b] This's Destiny, not instagib Quake.[/quote] The problem is how much has become unfun simply because other things got nerfed and natural counters were removed. Destiny PvP is an ecosystem like any other and when you constantly -blam!- with an ecosystem and kill off the things that keep others in check, eventually the whole system will die. [quote]Think of it this way: what would the reaction be if there was a super that, on activation, just randomly killed one person on the other team. In the grand scheme of things it'd be pretty weak, because other supers get 2+ kills usually if you use them well, but holy shit the salt would be tangible because it's completely out of your control. You don't have to be a top-tier player to understand that. It's the same sort of randomness that people moaned about with VoG and CE glitches, only these are intentional design features.[/quote] Fortunately that super doesn't exist. But it's funny that they nerfed Truth because they claim it's guaranteed kills, nevermind that there's opponents with heavy, there's supers and you may or may not even get heavy and only once or twice a match, so is Truth even worth taking over a different exotic? Maybe if exotics were better as we discussed on the cast, Truth use would be much less. Either way, their justification was complete bullshit. [quote]I bet you $20 that as soon as you play with an actual goal in mind -- not just having fun -- you'll change your tune.[/quote] I play with goals in mind all the time and I play for fun and I HATE losing, but I don't give any shits what my opponents use as long as they're not glitching around a map. I'll let you keep the $20 though lol [quote]EDIT: And just to add to this, what about all the general PvE frustrations? Heavy ammo glitch was frustrating. Lower special ammo is frustrating. Shotguns not mapping is frustrating. Boss AoEs are frustrating. Sniper flinch is frustrating. Multiple levels of RNG is frustrating. At least, according to some people. Should they all just shut up and deal?[/quote] They can voice their complaints and I'm not saying Bungie shouldn't listen to the community, but they need to also consider the whole community as well as what's fun. Also, balancing and changing things that are broken is one thing. Balancing on usage or because something hurt someone's feelers is another completely. There have been way too many things nerfed because players liked them and had fun using them so the shit had to go. Destiny needs more fun, not less. Sorry again took so long to reply, have a good night

[spoiler]Shhh, don't tell anyone I actually agree with this. You know, it might ruin my reputation.[/spoiler]

I don't think something should be nerfed because it's frustrating, but because it's unfair or broken to play against. Your super example isn't frustrating it's unfair. There is no way to defend against it. Every other super you can at least run from. Every other super you can somewhat counter. Your example is fundamentally flawed.

Usually that which is unfair and that which is frustrating are the same. People can argue what is and isn't fair all day long, but at the end of the day if a large enough group of people think that a mechanic is frustrating it probably is.

That's true, but I also think it's ridiculous that Sunsinger took such a hit because it was "frustrating" to play against. Sunsingers had no advantage over any other class, probably a disadvantage, since it's super doesn't guarantee at least one kill.

I mean, that's the argument right? The super sucks, therefore it's ok for them to have an awesome neutral game. The problem is that, as an opponent, you're far more annoyed by the 12-ish second burns that force you to stop playing every thirty-odd seconds than relieved by the lack of a scary super.

But what I don't understand is why they listen to the forums on certain matters and not others. They say they don't know if the people on the forums represent the entirety of the player-base that doesn't come on forums to speak but precede to listen to people on the "forums" and streamers. It seems like such a double standard. To say we don't want to listen to the forums because they might not represent the rest of the players in Destiny but we do listen to the forums when people agree with our (Bungie's) philosophies. Does that make sense? To go ahead and listen to some but not others? Sometimes those "others" don't represent a lot of people's opinions out there. Sometimes those people they listen to have a biased perspective, but they still listen. Makes utterly no sense to ME.

I'll respond to a few: OHKs are prevalent in all FPSs. ALL OF THEM. If people find them to be an "issue" or are "frustrated" by them, they need to play another game. Sure, Destiny has more OHKs than your average FPS. But Destiny is NOT your average FPS. The amount of OHKs prevalent in this game seem quite appropriate to me considering it is an fantasy/sci fi FPS. Fantastic abilities and guns are a hallmark of this game type, and trying to make this a standard FPS is a fool's errand. I disagree with your Sunsinger take, and I don't even play one. BUT, I've fought against plenty, and remember it's "15 seconds". Never had a problem with it. I thought nerf calls were selfish and the reasons behind them lazy. It used to be a quite effective subclass offensively while being a good support one as well. I wish defenders had similar offensive capabilities with the right build/perk tree selections. Agree with your SBMM take. OMG, here we go with the Lighting Grenade OP talk. My god! It is a powerful AoE grenade for sure, but damn it, it needs to be. Using it effectively is not without some skill and strategic foresight. It is by no means a guaranteed kill. I'm a Striker Titan Dammit! I expect to be a powerful mofo! Your PVE frustrations point is very weak. Your examples are of things that are broken, and you'd have a VERY hard time finding a player to count any of those issues as a positive as opposed to a negative. Thus, yes of course a fix should be made. No one should have to deal. PVP balance is a different deal. To make some people happy you have to make others less happy. In addition, balance should be handled delicately, should make sense, be effective, and MORE IMPORTANTLY ADDRESS THE ACTUAL F-ING ISSUE. Bungie don't do that so well.

Maybe frustrating is too strong a word, but dying is never pleasant. In a few of your rebuttals, you've talked about things not being in your control, and that makes them annoying. Why should any player have another in their control at any point in time? What would make a random death super, seem as though it was any more random than someone popping a super when you didn't expect it? You're always at risk of dying, and if it is a OHK that does the job, well so be it.

You're right, no player should have control of another player, so we should remove all AoD and CC grenades and abilities /s But seriously, there are times when randomness is fine and times when it isn't. Too much makes for an annoying game.

You're missing my point entirely. Everything is random when you are playing against human opponents. Arguing that their abilities are somehow an affront to you... well... of course they are! It's an assault. That doesn't make them unbalanced or need to be removed. You have just as much of an opportunity to use things they can't avoid, or don't like. You also have the cognitive ability to "git gud". You are talking like we need timeouts whenever it gets hot and heavy. That's asinine.

[quote]Arguing that their abilities are somehow an affront to you... well... of course they are! It's an assault. [/quote] "It's okay if the opponent kills me in a bullshit way because he's supposed to kill me". OK. [quote]You have just as much of an opportunity to use things they can't avoid, or don't like.[/quote] I do, which is why I don't go out of my way to get things changed. I could always switch to Fusions, or learn to use TLW, or become a Striker or what have you. That's exactly what a meta is: people don't like losing due to imbalance, so they switch to the best. Not a fan of that. [quote]You are talking like we need timeouts whenever it gets hot and heavy. That's asinine.[/quote] Don't put words in my mouth.

It's not bullshit for someone to use their abilities. That's a core part of the gameplay. There's always going to be a "meta". That doesn't stop you from playing the way you want. Once they started cutting up the game because some people couldn't handle that fact, they began to ruin the cohesion of the game as a whole. That opened the door for more and more to be removed or nerfed. We're getting less of a game, all because people whine about getting killed in a game where you're supposed to get killed.

Omg lol this^ I get the most annoyed from Taken enemies but do I want them, cut up, rehashed or removed because they are annoying? No! In pvp everyone has the ability to choose your encounters or stacks if you lose to those attacks well that's because of skill not the game. Bungie is basically working for the streamers not the other way around. Bungie should just stick with a theme and refuse to change it, fix the bugs that pop up in the game and that's it. You don't like something that's OP go play a different game then. If Bungie wants to keep up with the nerfherding in D2 I'll decide to go play a different game then! Same diff! After D2 they have no excuses. Activision just announced D2 was going to be more casual friendly if they don't separate pvp balances and pve then I'm not going to not trust them for the next 7.5 years they want to make it to the 10 year mark. If they have Trials with no ranking system again I will not trust Bungie or another Destiny game again. Fool me once...

People using their abilities isn't bullshit. The abilities themselves can be bullshit, and that's a sign of bad game design. There's a big difference between getting killed in a fair way and getting killed in a bullshit way. If you can't recognize that this conversation is meaningless.