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Editado por U12070628:
1/28/2017 10:59:14 PM
36
High cal isn't the problem with clever dragon
It's more so the gun itself. Before it came grasp, which was already strong and caused lots of flinch without high cal. High cal on clever dragon just made the problem worse. Without high cal, clever still causes lots of flinch just because how fast it fires. You can't tell me the only reason people use clever is because high cal, because look at grasp of Malok. It's the archetype it's self, plus other guns in general are weak. Here's a little thing to remember. A three burst from a clever dragon is a .80 ttk. A 2 burst from messenger is .77. I think the ttk gap is a little BS here considering how hard and unforgiving the slow firing pulses are to use, while with clever a 3 burst which isn't that hard to do, kills nearly as fast as the 2 bursting slow pulses. Whether it has high cal or not, the fast firing pulses outclass its slow firing parts.
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The problem with Clever Dragon is that Bungie was stupid and scaled flinch to bullets per second, which obviously gives a huge edge to high-RoF pulses over the other competitive to semi-competitive options. HCR only compounds the problem. Then you have a Clever Dragon shooting against your Colovance's Duty or a Spare Change; guns that have really strict precision requirements, and your aim gets thrown off so much. I've outgunned Clevers with my Colovance, but other times, the flinch throws my aim off so bad that I can't help but miss a headshot once, which screws me. That being said, the Dragon and the Grasp are literally the only somewhat powerful primaries. For people complaining that primaries suck ass, they need to realize that the Dragon is simply an example of a consistent, strong primary, and shouldn't be nerfed. However, the amount of aim deflection a HCR Clever causes to even a primary really puts off any other guns from competing with it, even if other primaries are buffed to meet its power. Bungie needs to scale flinch to impact. Simple as that.
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5 RespuestasHigh cal IS why clever is used more. Grasp is literally better in every facet of the gun. Range, relaod, mag, accuracy. Grasp IS better than Clever. High cal allows for clever excel.
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You are right, the whole archtype is very strong, but the fact remains that it wasn't a plague until the high calibre CD dropped. That's partly two reasons, first; accessibility: the amount of grind to get a good grasp is huuugely disproportionate to the amount of grinding required to get a CD. Also factor in that the type of people who would use a god roll Grasp are going to be less likely to grind a butt load of strikes but are already going to be playing IB and you've got the perfect storm of accessibility. Second; high calibre rounds: yes this archtype deals probably the most flinch in the game already, but the ability to roll an increase to that AND a high stability perk AND anything from rangefinder to hidden hand to outlaw and so on depending on what you like just makes the CD ridiculous. It outclasses Grasp on every level, and while I don't think they should remove high calibre I think they need to be toned down, and countermeasures brought in or buffed.
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4 RespuestasStill high cal should be removed from primary weapons:).
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1 RespuestaIt's problems are high cal and that there's very little damage fall off! It should have the lowest range of all the pulses!
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4 RespuestasI deal with it just fine with a Hopscotch.
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The problem with it is that it fires as fast as the doctrine of passing. But it does 2x the damage.
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The issue lies in the range and damage fall off of pulse rifles. No one's complaining about max RoF auto rifles because their range is terrible.
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People use clever because you can roll High cal and a stability perk, something that can only be done on 2 High RoF pulses
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Exactly. High Cal [i]only made it worse[/i]. Grasp was fine when it was popular. The issue I personally had was the kill time, and I snipe almost exclusively.
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Not to be rude, everyone knows this. Point??
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1 RespuestaEditado por Weeeaal: 1/27/2017 2:33:52 PMThe weapon archetype is NOT the problem. Timepiece/Oversoul/Skorri's Revenge have done 24hs damage since at least HoW (possibly even CE). That archetype does 23 hs damage now. The weapon is not the problem. The problem is having max stability AND High Caliber. There needs to be a sacrifice on this type of weapon and there isn't one. The same can be said for PDX-41/Hawksaw as well.
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You're missing the point. The flinch is so constant and so intense that you can't aim through it. The only option you have if a CD in capable hands gets the drop on you is hope you can turn a corner to break line of sight. When you come across a grasp in a similar situation you can shoot through it reliably at least so it's possible to win the engagement.
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3 RespuestasHere is how I would fix it... I believe I found the solution to High Rate /Low Impact vs Low Rate/High Impact problem we find again and again. It seems... High Caliber Rounds + High rate fire = no Bueno So what if we REMOVED it... AND Make it intrinsic...To certain weapons [b]High Rate of Fire - no intrinsic perk[/b], ya should be happy that your TTK is already lower than most weapon archetypes *cough* cleaver dragon & Doctrine of Passing *cough*. This would remove the need to directly nerf the weapon, eg making high rate pulse a four pulse kill. [b]Mid Rate of Fire - High caliber rounds[/b], it's fire rate is not so fast that you are stun locked but still present a slight advantage [b]Low Rate of Fire - Armor Piercing Rounds[/b], arguably the highest TTK in the game. With its high impact its logical that it's bullets should go through certain objects. Also high caliber rounds should penetrate Jug shields and certain cover. That would finally give low rate weapons a chance when they are getting rushed. This would apply across the board to all primary archetypes. If the weapon fire rate/impact are between X - Y they are placed into one of the above catagories and given one of the above characteristics
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People use clever because of its ease of access and Hi-cal the Amount of flinch that happens and to be able to shoot back while it's happening is hard
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High Cal is the problem because if you noticed after the grasp strike was being farmed for the nightfall people were complaining but afterwards they stopped and we didn't see grasp too much.
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1 RespuestaMake red death great again!!!!
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2 RespuestasCrybabies like you is why the crucible is in the shape it's in. Everything is about a 1 hit kill and nobody uses a primary. Buff primaries not nerf 1 of the few decent ones left
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4 Respuestas[quote]which was already strong and caused slot if flunch[/quote] [b]slot if flunch[/b]
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The problem is that it also has the same range as the messenger or at least when it comes to damage falloff. There is no punishment in using it at scout rifle ranges making OP with the .8 TTK
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8 RespuestasYour right! high caliber rounds isn't what's wrong with the clever dragon... [spoiler] nothing is wrong with the clever dragon[/spoiler]
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4 RespuestasEditado por Stupid Shinji: 1/27/2017 1:11:44 AMYou guys amuse the hell out of me. You hitch and whine it's because it's a high rate, then I go into crucible with my parthian and still average the same kd as with a clever Dragon. Maybe ever thought you just suck ass with high impact weapons cuz you can't time out the shots properly and you just mash the trigger till bullets fire? Course not, it's just easier to blame another weapon instead of yourself, then when the "meta" changes, you still play the exact same. Btw, we have the same stats, I'm talking in general. Maybe you just can't use high impact weapons. I averaged a 2.8 over 100 games of iron banner with a parthian.
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4 RespuestasEditado por Ness: 1/27/2017 8:16:15 AMHCR causes you to miss perfectly aimed shots if you're hit by it. That, and the damage fall off isn't steep enough for Clever Dragon. You shouldn't have a chance against a scout at long range using Clever Dragon. Right now, that isn't the case.
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Hcr are the only problem with that weapon.
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Editado por DuBChiri2: 1/27/2017 7:37:37 AMMake the range stat matter and make the stability the same as praedyths time piece and boom, balanced.
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4 RespuestasGrasp is a better gun than clever dragon in every stat that matters. The only thing better about clever dragon is that it can roll braced, high cal, counterbalance. If you don't believe me, look at the weapon stats. http://db.planetdestiny.com/items/weapons
