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Editado por Brockie:
7/9/2016 8:45:08 AM
189
No.
SBMM is important in ensuring fun, fair games. Like everyone else you present no evidence whatsoever that SBMM is the cause of lag. Lack of dedicated servers, issues on your end, lack of players... Any one of these could be the cause.
I understand you may suffer lag, but if your stats are so high that you do get issues finding people you're in a tiny minority. The game does not owe you anything, much less a pubstomp.
Also, this post has been raised before ad nauseum. Maybe enough with the posts crying for CBMM? We get it. I assure you we get it. Bungie do too and making the same weak arguments a million times doesn't make them any more valid.
Edit: Hurling insults undermines your point, all such posts have been reported. Please keep things civil.
Edit: Survey about lag https://www.bungie.net/en/Forums/Post/208018081?page=0&sort=0&showBanned=0&path=1
English
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Funny, because you're seeing the good side of SBMM. Why else would you defend it?
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Because you have no direct evidence for either what the matchmaking settings are, or that they are the cause of your lag problems. Without that evidence (which only Bungie has) it's just so much supposition and hot air.
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Fair games? You're delusional if you think sbmm is fair.
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What's unfair about it?
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This is a direct copy/paste of one of my previous posts: Why should all the good players that have spent hours on this game be punished (harder games) while all the bad players are rewarded (with easier games) when the extrinsic rewards are the same? SBMM is like communism, and we all know how well that works.
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The games aren't harder, relative to the skill of the player they're the same. That argument works both ways anyway: Why should average players be punished by being cannon fodder for experts? Why punish the majority for the sake of a skilled minority? CBMM is like the 1% banking system, and we all know how well that works out for the 99%
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On average, the games are harder relative to randomised matchmaking. The majority is not being punished by any means. You get as much out of a game as you put into it. The same applies to real life in any meritocracy based society. On average, the more skilled you are, the better off you are (better career/pay/recognition). Besides, why the double standards? Why is SBMM not implemented in PVE as well, if everyone is to face enemies of similar skill. They can make it so the best pve players have much more difficult opponents in raids and end game activities, while the difficulty for weaker players is adjusted accordingly. We can have some hand holding as well to make it easier for those that can't beat the raids.
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Editado por Brockie: 7/11/2016 6:22:40 PMThey are harder but the players are better equipped to deal with the difficulty. Putting a pro team against a Pick up Group on their first match out isn't fair. I have literally seen this in action and it wrecks the PvP games, the PuG gets dropouts at a rate of knots and nobody has any fun. It's [i]not [/i]a meritocracy it's a game. You know, for fun? Players don't 'aspire' to be like the guy smashing their face in, they just go "Oh, guess the matchmaking messed up" and quit out to reroll. I mean... If you got what you wanted and CBMM was the rule then it would be random. So they're likely to get average players most of the time. [i]Why wouldn't they just drop out of the games where they got unfairly matched against pros?[/i] This would leave the pro players with nobody to play, because nobody in their right mind would stay in the kind of games you're proposing. But let's say you somehow guilt trip people into wasting their time being your cannon fodder... how are those at the top meant to maintain their skill if all they do all day is bash rookies? How does one, for instance, get good enough to partake in Trials? If most of your matches are average and you can't predict when an overskilled opponent is going to turn up how would you do that? Drop out of the [i]average[/i] matches? But you might get someone a million miles better than you, from whom you learn nothing. So how do you search for players at and slightly above your level, in order to learn? You can't, without dropping out of almost every match you're in. No. A gradually increasing skill curve that recognizes when you improve and rewards you with more challenging opposition in a controlled, gradual way is [i]by far [/i]the best solution. This should absolutely be implemented via dedicated PvP servers. Nobody should be expected to waste their time taking part in a hopeless battle for the sake of your enjoyment. If you want to beat everyone effortlessly, that's on you. Get good enough to beat [i]everyone[/i]. Also... We're specifically talking about PvP. There's no matchmaking at all in endgame PvE, but I agree there should be.
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I'm a mediocre player, so this is by no means for me. The only advantage I had in year one match making was a decent connection. The argument that "this is a game" is not a very good one. Like anywhere else, people want to be rewarded proportional to their skill, thus the different trophies, rewards etc in all games. This is currently not happening in Destiny pvp. SBMM can work if implemented with dedicated servers within a ranked playlist where players have a chance at getting unique rewards as they climb the ranks. A casual random playlist should exist as well for players that just want to play the luck of the draw. You misunderstood my PVP vs PVE comparison. If SBMM were to be implemented to raids, the less skilled players would play against less skilled/lower light level CPU opponents and vice versa for the more skilled. As it stands, there are groups that can do the raid in less then an hour and groups that cannot finish it in any amount of time. If SBMM were to be implemented, both may be able to finish the raid in x hours. Therein lies the double standard.
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Editado por Brockie: 7/11/2016 10:33:44 PMSkill is its own reward, as is ability to compete at a higher level. Beating someone you know is as good as you are, or close to your level, means something. You're equating easy wins and meaningless stat padding with an achievement. Manchester United don't go around crushing kindergarten teams and bragging about it. With CBMM your wins would literally be worthless, for all you know you could get lucky matches against terrible players every time. I agree with you than an optional CBMM setting should exist (Though few rookies would use it) That's not the original point I made. So I ask again: [b]Why would a rookie ever stick around in a match against a massively over skilled player?[/b] You say easy wins are a reward, so you must presumably believe crushing defeats are a punishment. Why would a player ever stick around to receive a 'punishment' they did nothing to deserve? Still don't get your point about the PvE, please keep it in the real of PvP instead of inventing hypothetical raid scenarios.
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Intrinsically, the better players are being rewarded by facing better opponents. This is true in a scenario where extrinsic rewards are present, and where the skill gap between opponents is larger. Where the skill gap is always minimal, and extrinsic rewards are absent, the better players grow frustrated (as is the case in destiny). To use your Manchester United example: In a scenario like the present one in Destiny, they would face other teams of very similar skill (Barcelona, Bayern) consistently and their pay rate and fame (extrinsic rewards in this scenario) would be that of all teams (worst teams included). Now this isn't how it works is it? As for my SBMM comparison between PVE and PVP; I don't see what's so perplexing. In PVP you get to fight people of your own skill through SBMM, while in PVE, your opponents (raid bosses etc) have a fixed level of difficulty that is independent of your level of skill. Atheon doesn't shoot flowers to people that have a low combat rating, thus the double standard. I can't speak for others, but I have never left a match because I was getting my ass handed to me, which was quite frequent when I started playing. I managed to improve; went from a 0.6 kd to a 1.1 while playing the experts and Gods that you claim we'll be facing if we go back to CBMM.
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Man United are likely overpaid. CBMM would make any satisfaction from beating opponents and having good stats meaningless, since you just got put against random shmucks. So you think players will pursue a reward for being skilled but won't avoid a punishment for being unskilled? Right, you need to reassess your opinion of players. Its an unrealistic expectation, and it fatally undermines your argument. The same problem with dropouts cripples your "more reward for the best" thing and [i]has actually been demonstrated in game[/i]. Previously Iron Banner matches didn't have medallions for the losing team. The mountaintop quest and various others punished defeat when TTK came out. In both instances player dropouts skyrocketed and Bungie were forced to intervene. Players will [i]not[/i] stay in a match if they feel they will gain nothing from doing so. They don't have some masochistic desire to make things fun for the elite and they certainly don't owe you their leisure time. Also, you know those self proclaimed experts crying about 'sweat fests'? Under your system wouldn't they be awfully tempted to drop out of their hard matches as well? We know they'll do anything to push their stats...
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Whether Manchester is overpaid or not is irrelevant to the argument at hand; you can sub Manchaster with "good team x" and it would be the same. A serie A team is not rewarded the same as a Serie B or C team. The point that was illustrated is that players are rewarded proportional to their skill level; this is the case everywhere, except in the few communist countries that are left. As for people quiting, I have experienced it more during year 2 than year 1. Do you have any data to suggest that people were quitting more during year 1? I don't see the reason why that would happen during regular crucible where rewards and marks are given to both teams. In a scenario like the Iron Banner "without boons" and the mountaintop quest, yes, because you need to win to progress. In a ranked SBMM scenario, Bungie can implement penalties for quitters, like a decrease in standing. This is the same as other games that implement ranked skill based playlists. For casual playlists, it can continue as it was in year one. And I want to ask you, have you played crucible in year one at all? You seem to be under the impression that you'll face 2+ kd players all the time.
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You avoided the question. In CBMM why would average players stay in a losing match instead of quitting out and rerolling the matchmaking? I already answered your point about elite players getting better rewards. Another example is the lighthouse and all the carries, cheating and so on people do to get it. That's three examples now. I'm not an average player, what I noticed in year two was more consistent, tougher competition. I don't know what setting year one had, presumably nobody outside of Bungie does.
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Editado por ALBOBOSS: 7/13/2016 10:29:52 PMMy point was not about elite players getting better rewards in a CBMM scenario but in an SBMM ranked scenario where players would strive to go up the ranks. It gives people another reason to improve at PVP and get ranked and recognized by the game. It's the same idea with raids in PVE. I didn't avoid your previous question; I didn't think I had to spell it out for you. Player's quitting games was no more of an issue in year 1 then it is now. Like I said in my previous post, do you have any evidence that indicates that players were quitting more frequently in year one? Even if they were quitting more often (which is not the case), Bungie can introduce some positive reinforcement as they have done with strikes. They can give better rewards and more marks to people that stay in the playlist for longer.
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So you want year 1 matchmaking, not CBMM?
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It's one and the same.
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Do you have any evidence for that, or are you just assuming?
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Only anecdotal and Bungie's confirmation a month after they had made the changes. I have been matched with triplewreck twice in year one (3+ kd) and other good players. Pretty much all players I've faced in year 2 have been in the 0.9 to 1.1 kd range.
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So nothing concrete. I noticed tougher matches and fewer one sided blowouts. On balance it's clear there was an improvement in my case. Sorry, but without further data it's just so much hot air. Trials is CBMM anyway if it bugs you that much.
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Yeah, don't like to play 3vs3. If only they had some connection based version of 6 vs 6.
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Editado por LogicUnbound: 7/10/2016 4:15:11 AM
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It's definitely not fun to have every single game go down to the wire. How are you possibly going to get any better at this game? You need to play against the teams that will stomp your ass. And you need to play against the teams that bend over and take it. Consistently playing against people at your skill level will never make you any better. [b]And it's just not fun.[/b]
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Bear in mind the SBMM has a bit of range, it does put you against people near to your level You'll meet others higher and lower, but within limits. As you perform better you go up the ranking, fighting consistently better players. You either learn to beat them and continue to advance, or find your level and stop. That's how you learn. I'm sorry if you don't find close games fun, but you mist surely understand it's very selfish of you to want easy wins?
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Thank you. Agree wholeheartedly. SBMM makes the games still fun for the majority of players. The "remove SBMM" posters seem to me to be spoiled kids who happen to be good at a videogame who want to pubstomp others. Entitled kids who want an easy life. Imagine an NFL player wanting to play little league to avoid "sweaty matches". Would you have anything but disrespect for a guy like that? I am mediocre at crucible, probably not in the top 33%. Like 66% of the community. The majority. I like crucible because of SBMM. Without SBMM I would stay away, like I guess most would.
