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Editado por Slain: 4/5/2016 2:14:35 AM
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Slain

Removing Elemental Primaries Exemplifies Bungie's Lazy Approach to Solving Problems

In any game, issues arise which call for some form of change. Destiny is no exception. Throughout Destiny's life cycle, weapon balance and investment systems have seen several forms, each the result of a very basic means of solving problems: taking the lazy way out. Weapons aren't balanced? Something is being used more than everything else? [b]Nerf it![/b] Sunbreaker titans seem really powerful in comparison to some weak-ass subclasses? [b]Nerf it![/b] Elemental primaries alter the way players choose which weapons to use? [b]Get rid of them![/b] Problem solved, right? Almost every time an issue such as these has arisen in Destiny, the Bungie solution has been to nerf it or remove it from the game. While some balance is achieved in the process, what is also achieved is a scorched earth policy. Everything fun or useful in the game has always been and always will be targeted. Over three big weapons patches, the level of balance in the game has only increased slightly, if at all. What the weapon patches serve to do more than "balance" the game is to pick what people like to use and destroy it. Sure, weapons are somewhat more equal after a patch, but they are "equally shitty", as Draken Wolfe says. Why can't we have weapons that are equally good, equally useful, and equally fun to use? We could, if Jon Weisnewski and the Wrecking Crew didn't make the following [b]completely unnecessary[/b] moves: -nerfing almost every year 1 perk -replacing most middle tree nodes with useless tradeoffs which hinder use of the weapon rather than boost it, as the word "perk" would suggest -nerfing auto rifles because an Iron Banner bounty forced people to use them "too much" -nerfing hand cannons as a result of the meta shift following the auto rifle nerf -nerfing pulse rifles as a result of the meta shift following the hand cannon nerf - *inevitably* nerfing scout rifles as the result of the meta shift following the pulse rifle nerf -nerfing fusions over and over and over and over and over again because some guy in the studio knows how to use them -introducing perks like exhumed, replenish, icarus, surrounded, underdog, guerrilla fighter, last resort, army of one, etc in order to make good perks rare as shit -nerfing Gjallarhorn because your shitty boss design made it effective -nerfing Ice Breaker because your shitty boss design made it effective -nerfing Black Hammer because your shitty boss design made it effective Every one of these could have have been avoided, had you exercised a little brain power once in a while. Do you know why weapons like Ice Breaker and Black Hammer were really good? Because bosses in Destiny just stand there and beg you to shoot them in the head. But instead of making the enemies less -blam!-ing stupid, you make the weapon useless. Way to go, sandbox team. The same principle applies to Luke Smith's ass-hatted decision to remove elemental primaries from the game. [quote]They had the distinct and undesirable property of limiting a broad weapon sandbox to a few weapons[/quote] This is true. Having elements on primaries not only incentivized playing endgame activities, but also set those weapons apart from others. Playing these activities gave you a form of advantage when burns were active. Without endgame weapons having any quality that vendor weapons don't have, how does removing this added bonus achieve anything good? It makes raid weapons essentially just infusion trash, especially when you give them garbage perks and heavily randomize their quality. [quote]I strongly prefer the breadth of arsenal weapons, the potential of finding a better Legendary then you have to being stuck because of a damage color[/quote] First of all, having a "damage color" doesn't make you stuck with a weapon for 2 reasons: 1 - damage elements in destiny serve such a trivial purpose that having arc vs. kinetic on a weapon makes almost no difference 2 - because of this, what constitutes a "better" legendary is not an element, but the weapon's perks. Having an element vs. kinetic on a weapon, again, makes almost no difference when you take into account which perks one weapon has over the other. And, if you're frequently finding vendor weapons with better perks, that's not a good thing; endgame weapons are supposed to be the best in the game. [b]And[/b], exactly how does removing the element from one weapon make the "potentially better legendary" better? Answer: it doesn't; it's a move to create the illusion of weapons being better and having more variety instead of making actual improvements. It's -blam!-ing lazy. Additionally, this problem is easily solved by making primary elements not exclusive to endgame gear. If you could infuse any legendary weapon with an element using a material reward from some high level activity, how does this not solve the problem more than complete removal of elemental primaries does? [quote]No Legendary weapons with damage colors has the property of making secondaries ad heavies more important because of their damage color[/quote] This is where Luke really lost me. If there is a quality of primary weapons that would make specials and heavies less important, it sure as hell isn't damage elements. This is for the same reasons as above. The damage element system in Destiny is almost pointless. The only purpose elements serve is to do some bonus damage to enemy shields. If you honestly think the slight bonus damage to enemy shields trivializes special and heavy weapons in the presence of an elemental primary, you should play Destiny. You should do it some time. The problem is not the potential of primary weapons to fulfill the role of specials and heavies,; the problem is stupidity of the damage element system. There you have it, Bungie taking the easy way out on an issue once again. Instead of turning eyes to the flawed element system, you remove the thing "causing the problem." The thing you removed was an incentive to earn endgame weapons, a thing that gave people reason to use some otherwise garbage weapons, a thing that didn't harm the use of special and heavy weapons as your delusions lead you to believe. You see primaries with damage elements as harmful, but rather the fault lies with the flawed system. Give elements more of a purpose in Destiny. Give every enemy an elemental weakness and resistance. Make primary weapons infusable with weak elements that don't have an effect on weaknesses and resistances, but still provide an advantage with burn modifiers, and still give the player more of an incentive to earn endgame gear. Because as of now, there is [b]absolutely -blam!-ing ZERO[/b] incentive to earn endgame weapons. If there is a balance issue, fix it. Don't just nerf or remove whatever your excel spreadsheets tell you is a problem, because it has led to a boring and lifeless game which was once far more fun, and had far more variety and incentive to play. I can't believe the guy who made the masterpieces that are Destiny's raids is the same guy who strode lengths to remove every bit of fun and reward from them.
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  • Brilliant post, 100% agree [quote]endgame weapons are supposed to be the best in the game. [/quote] ^^ THIS! ^^

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  • Holy crap! Amazing! I've been saying these things for months now, but never to this extent. Very well articulated, and I agree.

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  • I touched on this a bit in my how to fix destiny rant, though not quite to this level of detail. But it all goes back to how in general, legendary gear is poorly designed with a few exceptions. The Raid gear from year 1 was all pretty well conceptualized, if not implemented as good as it could have been. My favorite example is the PoE armor - that stuff was absolutely ridiculous when the conditions were met, and then just another average high level armor elsewhere and to me, that's exactly what they need to strive for. If they would stop making stuff that's just generally good in all situations (largely due to lack of compelling choices and being limited to a single exotic) they'd be much more free in terms of design space, and Exotics could really stand out. IMO, Legendaries should be incredibly powerful but within specific niche roles (they're "Legendary" after all) while Exotics should focus on either enhancing or altering/enabling builds. For example, the new "Capture King" perk on some of the Iron Banner gear is what I want to see a lot more of on PvP vendor and earned gear - a lot more of, while seeing Exotics like the new and improved No Backup Plans or Monte Carlo which can dramatically change how you go about playing a class. Part of Destiny's original selling point *was* being a special snowflake, but that's just not possible in the game from a mechanical or cosmetic standpoint. Another big step would be to finally strip Discipline, Strength and Intellect from armor entirely and instead give us a points system that we can switch around freely with the amount of points you have being determined by your overall light and player level. Not only would this allow for a lot more freedom of builds, but it would cut down on the excessive (and abusive) amount of RNG in this game. Destiny is a bizarre hybrid of an action RPG and MMO with the benefits of neither, largely due to the poor itemization. There's a reason standard MMOs don't mix RNG (at least not nearly to the degree Destiny does) with weekly lockouts, it's one or the other. FFXIV is pretty good about this having tokens for most evens and while loot is not individualized, you can run the 24-man raids over and over until you get your weekly drop (while earning other useful rewards like Allagan Tomes) and while you can only do Savage raids once per week period, everyone gets a token at the end to use for whichever item they want once they have enough on top of the actual drops (usually only 2 the party has to fight over lol). But the point is raid bosses never, *ever* drop nothing. The Division is also better on this front since it embraces the Diablo-style gameplay and just showers you in loot so even though the RNG can be annoying similar to Destiny, you can keep progressing as much as you like. Getting back to the Primary burns (sorry for the segway but I felt it important) am I the only one who feels like they should have done more? I'm not a big fan of the color-coding system. It's honestly pretty damn lame that all they did was damage specific shields, it's a hollow mechanic that frankly should either be scrapped entirely or dramatically altered. I would prefer the latter, with each element doing something different not only based on the element, but in the case of exotics doing something special. Zhalo Supercell is a great example of this being an Arc weapon that actually chains lightning between enemies. But what if the Vex mythoclast also set people on fire? What if we had a void gun that (on a kill) drained an enemy's super energy? (Would probably be too OP but just thinking aloud). At bare minimum, rather than simply refusing to make more guns like Fatebringer (or even restoring it to year 2 power) how about doing so because it's what we want, and then as I said earlier going over how you design legendaries in the first place and trying harder to come up with compelling options? Bungie told us that our time invested should matter, and that we're supposed to play this game how we want to but the reality is the exact opposite - our time is wasted, and they're going to force us to play in the manner they dictate. You know what nearly destroyed Ford? That exact BS attitude of telling the customer what they want instead of listening to and delivering what was actually asked for. Difference here is, if and when (and it should) come back to bite Bungie in the ass, there won't be any bailouts for them :P

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    • One of the best constructed posts I've ever seen. Scorched Earth Policy is how bungie updates should be referred to going forward.

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    • Agree so heavily on the shitty boss design. I have a wall of text from a while back about it that occasional floats to the surface here. #icebreakerdidnothingwrong

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    • So what your saying is they should nerf fusion rifles?

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    • Agreed.fusion rifles should be buffed. Great post;)))

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    • Editado por HiddenWarrior: 4/5/2016 6:27:36 AM
      This is exactly what I've been trying to say for a while now. I'm sure people at Bungie will look at this thread and think, "look at all these people trying to backseat game design" but that will happen when the game has potential, but is constantly made worse literally every update. One step forward, three steps back. Let's look at a microcosm of the issues that Bungie has balancing anything: The First Curse is extremely underwhelming. They buff First Curse to a point where they feel it is better, but not yet over powered. It's still a poor gun that is outperformed by Hawkmoon in every situation. The solution? Nerf the crap out of Hawkmoon. They literally made something worse, to make the other thing seem more viable, rather then try and figure out how to make the first thing better. Lazy quick game design at its finest.

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    • Editado por BigBuddhaBoss: 4/4/2016 9:31:55 PM
      [quote]Do you know why weapons like Ice Breaker and Black Hammer were really good? [b]Because bosses in Destiny just stand there and beg you to shoot them in the head.[/b][/quote] First of all, this is the truest thing I've read all damn day. Secondly, this is one of the biggest problem with Destiny right now. Look at Atheon and Crota; two bosses hyped up to be godly incarnations of evil, and what do they do? Atheon stands there and takes it up the ass, and Crota stands there and takes it up the ass while occasionally moving left or right down a walkway. [spoiler]"The Moon fell to Crota" my ass, Cryptarch. The Moon probably fell to the boomers, because they put up more of a fight than Crota ever did.[/spoiler] How about Taniks, who's hyped up throughout The Shadow Thief, as the next Skolas? "Ruthless mercenary", "murderer", and yet what does Taniks do? Stands there and takes my TYS to the -blam!-ing face, while barely making any effort to attempt kill me with his scorch cannon. The only reason Destiny bosses put up any sort of fight are either due to the number of adds they summon, or the fight mechanic for the boss. Even the more recent bosses, like the Theoysian Mind and Valus Tlu'urn, are guilty of the same thing; they just kind of exist. No real fight effort from them. Darkblade is only good during his second phase. I swear, it seems that all of the bosses in Destiny are either incompetent or suicidal.

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      • Editado por Erijian: 4/5/2016 2:04:15 AM
        How would you balance elemental primaries being used over kinetic weapons? Just so you know, proposing something like "elemental infusion" isn't a proper answer. EDIT: Serious question; not trying to be an ass.

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        • Editado por Snake: 4/5/2016 9:14:12 AM
          i for one loved the elemental burns added to the primary weapons, they made weapons during crota worth getting (the fang was my favorite gun), the weapon damage now is focused too much on secondary and heavy weapons. all the gear available are avarage at best for high end activities (with iron banner and trials getting the best gear rolls for standard gear) they should have been the best gear for doing the best activities. all gear should have been available to both PvE and PvP not exclusive items for certain activities except for the raid gear (which should require running the raid to get) and hidden gear in hidden missions (such as the black spindle), i could see having gear skins for iron banner and trials as a bonus for running them. that would keep the balance of the game better than all these nerfs, as wepons have become like limp versions of what the weapon would have been designed for in the real world the weapons would have been designed as follows (i am not going to bother with melee weapons such as swords as we all know what they were designed for, i'll keep it as short as i can) this is close to how they felt in year 1 without nerfs: primaries: scout rifles (marksmen rifles) would be designed to do high damage at longer range with single shots at long range (but lower powered than snipers). pulse rifles (burst rifles) would be designed to do medium high at medium to long range (giving a balance of speed and accuracy with good damge and fire rate) a ballance between scout and auto rifles. auto rifle (assault rifles) were designed for their high rate of fire but medium accuracy at mid range with good damage at optimum range. hand cannons were designed as low range with high accuracy and power. secondaries: shotguns were designed with low fire rate and high power at low range and low accuracy (unless they use a solid slug projectile for better range). Sniper rifles obviously designed for high range high power and high accuracy (as most sniper rifles would kick so hard without being braced against the shoulder or on a stand looking down the scope, hip fire would unlikely hit a target ). side arms would be a primary not secondary (hand cannons would be in the same class either way as they are just higher powered side arms) and would be desinged for fast damage at low range with low end damage. fusion rifles (as the don't actually exist i'll have to guess) would be designed to replace the shotgun so would have a simular role but likely a better range. heavy weapons: rocket launchers are designed for use agaist tanks and aircraft mainly, unless it has ammo designed for soft targets ie: humans, mid to high range and low to high velocity (dependant on rocket type) and each rocket type if damaging to tanks would do far less damage to humans but could still kill depending on how far from the explosion they are. machine guns are designed for high rate of fire high ammo capacity and to deal high damage but with low to medium accuracy

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        • I agree with pretty much everything written here. This is the primary reason I don't play anymore. The original guns felt amazing and unique and worth obtaining. So when they became overused or looked at as the only reasonable endgame weapons, they nerfed them all. This is such a lazy fix. How about instead of nerfing the blackhammer into oblivion you instead stop making shitty snipers that are all the same? How about instead of removing elemental primaries you add more to the game to add variety? How about instead of destroying the almighty Gjallarhorn you introduce some competition for the exotic heavy slot? All the new weapons feel the same. Nothing is special. Nothing stands out. I'm done with this game because it no longer feels unique. Bungie pretty much nerfed and removed the fun out of the game. I stay on the forums and log in every now and then to see if anything changes or will get better, but am pretty much disappointed every time.

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          • Buuuuuuuuump. Get your shit together, Bungie.

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          • While I understand those who say elemental primaries help trivialize the Nightfalls difficulty, that really isn't the point. The main goal of Destiny, or any game, should be for the players to enjoy themselves. Nightfalls could always be a challenge, but I enjoyed running with my friends, all in hopes of not getting careless along the way and ending up in a wipe. I don't mind being challenged by the activities, as long as we're still "enjoying" them. I don't mind getting killed for my mistake. I do not like getting killed because of a bad game mechanic. Removing elemental primaries falls in that category. When the Y2 Strikes were brought out, there was a new "Skull" added - Matchgame. This means most enemies are heavily shielded and anything witout that burn is VERY VERY INEFFECTIVE against that enemy. Pair this with Juggler and now you have no ammo drops for the 2 weapons you need. (only Special & Heavy have elemental) Prime Example - Bond Brothers - Every Cabal throughout that strike is pretty much shielded. Phalanx, Centuriions, Colussi, & the damn Psions.- If you try to tell me that Kinetics are just as effective against them as the proper burn, you are lying to yourself. 3 shield types requires 3 burn types. The Undying Mind can be just as bad - Void Minotaurs, Solar Goblins, & the Arc Progeny.

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          • 8
            Y1 = fun Y2 = removed everything that made it fun in y1

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            • "They had the distinct and undesirable property of limiting a broad weapon sandbox to a few weapons." -Gets into raid -Inspects other guardians -Hung Jury -Hung Jury -Hung Jury -Smite of Merain -Hung Jury Wheres the broad use of weapons again?

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              • Editado por spybraek: 4/5/2016 7:19:50 AM
                F'n yes! You put into words what I could not! Bumpity bump this post!!! Taken King sucked in making you want those rare and glorious weapons. And who the F decided to give about 4 months of bringing ANY weapon to 365, only to discover that those weapons would forever be lost in the dust factory of "F-it all, IT's ALL GARBAGE. Here is horrible loot from TAKEN KING". Above all, it sucks that two of three RAIDS have been basically deleted from the game. I played for the raids. Taken King gives me garbage, I don't need more garbage, and so I don't play. Did ever cross your mind that RAIDS might have "high replay ability"????

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              • I use fewer guns in Year 2 than I ever did in Year 1. Your move, Bungholes.

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              • Such a good post. Hope Bungie can learn something from this, but I doubt it.

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              • Editado por Optic: 4/5/2016 6:41:32 AM
                couldnt agree more

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              • Elemental Primaries were removed because that was ALL people were using in the game. This isn't some corp opinion it was a fact. Before Taken King, the only weapons that I honestly kept (besides exotics), was Fatebringer (for arc burn), Word of Crota (void burn) and Vision of Confluence (solar burn). Those were the ONLY primaries I ever used. My secondary was made up of Felwinter's Lie, or Blackhammer/Ice Breaker. My heavy was either Joldar's Hammer or Gally. Every other weapon I earned, I broke it down without even giving it a second's glance. Every one of my clan mates had the same set up as well. If you look at the meta now, despite the Sniper apocolypse, everybody is using something different. I see several various auto rifles, shot guns, scout rifles... You don't see everybody running with Thorn. Everybody using Felwinter's Lie. By removing Elemental Primaries, people are willing to try more weapons. That is a fact. Bungie will always be playing with Russian Roullete when it comes to balance. There isn't an easy answer and there never will be. No matter what you change, somebody is going to be mad. In respect to the Sunbreaker subclass. C'mon, you can't tell me that that class wasn't OP. When I was running Sunbreaker, I was getting around 30 to 40 kills per crucible match. It was gloriously broken. Now the Sunbreaker is fair, and guess what, its still my favorite class, despite its nerfs. As touching your over call comments... Here's the deal, instead of insulting Bungie (yes calling people that work 80 to 90 hours per week lazy is an insult), and ranting about what you don't have. Focus on helpful feedback. I took programming in college and there is nothing simple about it. Everything is hard and trying to please millions of people is impossible. You DO start getting into suggestions, but honestly, the first half of your post feels like a rant whether it was intended or not. Most of us will stop reading after just a little bit. I know your frustrated and a lot of us are, but be focused, concise, and be civil.

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                • Totally agree. Pretty much use a Scout / Pulse rifle with FireFly / Explosive Rounds or a Auto Rifle with High Caliber stagger rounds for in closer stuff. 1000 yard stare or Telesto fusion rifle for secondary and then my highest light level Heavy weapon. Tracking on Rocket launchers has been nerfed enough that I no longer trust them and usually go with 320 Qullims Heavy Machine Gun (especially on Oryx too easy to kill ones self) or my 317 Sleeper Stimulant. As others have said, the Cocoon perk is the only redeeming perk of the Raid weapons - other than that, thye are really ho hum and very little difference between any other weapon you can get.

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                • The Cocoon perk is a good perk, but not at the expense of another perk. In the case of VoG and CE raid weapons, we had bonus damage to oracles and bonus damage to hive majors. Forget that there was an elemental burn for a second and you'd still see that the Y1 raid weapons were better because their intrinsic perks didnt come at the expense of a useful perk. Take Fatebringer, remove either Outlaw or Firefly, replace with Oracle disruptor and you have an average gun. Primary burns are secondary (lol) to the real problem: Cocoon should be a bonus perk, not replace a full Legendary Perk.

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                  • Bump and a salute

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                    • Everything stated above is on point.

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                    • 300 comments in, and this thread already has [i]250[/i] upvotes. I think that ratio alone speaks for itself.

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