[b]Now that I've got your attention.[/b] There's so many posts about nerf these, buff those. What we really need is a weapon re-balance patch. Thanks to [url=https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1L7FV9l4hXo2tHD3XlFUp854XvJIwTKFIPvASLduPPS4/htmlview?usp=sharing&sle=true]Destiny PvP weapon stats spreadsheet by Exxtrooper[/url] [b][i][u]As of 07/16/2015 these stats will be somewhat inaccurate[/u][/i][/b] Assuming all critical hits the average time to kill (TTK) in seconds for each weapon class is as follows and their respective fastest TTK: [b]Auto Rifles: 1.12[/b]* Fastest: 0.86 (Eidolon Ally/Necrochasm, no seriously) [b]Pulse Rifles: 0.86[/b] Fastest: 0.67 (Red Death) [b]Scout Rifles: 0.90[/b] Fastest: 0.80 (Gheleon's Demise/The Scholar) [b]Hand Cannons: 0.89[/b] [b][u]Fastest 0.26[/u][/b] (The Last Word Hipfired) Now these stats are using all guns for each class that are listed (including the greens). So it's not a particularly great representation. If we shorten that list to say, just end game tier legendaries and exotics and perk set ups that minimize TTK: [b]Auto Rifles (8) : 0.96[/b]* [b]Pulse Rifles (6) : 0.82[/b] [b]Scout Rifles (5) : 0.92[/b] [u][b]Hand Cannons (9**) : 0.65[/b][/u]*** [spoiler] * For the TTK values of auto rifles I did not include the Vex Mythoclast, as it is not and has not been subject to auto rifle adjustments through patches for the same reason I did not include the Lord of Wolves into pulse rifles. Its current TTK is 0.64s. ** I counted The Last Word ADS and TLW Hip-Fired as two different guns, Thorn with DoT and Thorn without DoT as two different guns, and Hawkmoon as three guns as 39% of the time it will 2-shot, and 0.04% to one-shot (0.605 gun at 0.86s, and 0.394 gun at 0.40s, and 0.00046 gun at 0.01s) *** This average TTK doesn't factor time for Thorns DoT to inflict fatal damage, only the time required for Thorn to land the shots that the DoT will cause fatal damage. The total time for DoT to kill is about 1.2s after two consecutive headshots from the time the first round hits.[/spoiler] These stats imply, at least in my opinion, that auto rifles definitely need a buff, but apparently not a huge one. Other than that, it seems Auto Rifles vs Pulse Rifles vs Scout Rifles are pretty well balanced vs each other. Pulse rifles kill a little quickly compared to the other two, but if the user makes a mistake then they have to wait for the burst to end and the next burst is ready to correct. Auto rifles can correct mistakes quickly, but still relies on others mistakes to be effective. Scout rifles can correct mistakes more easily and are less unforgiving than pulse rifles, but require more finesse to land shots. Then there's these assholes (Thorn/TLW) TTK way lower than any other primary, just INSANE. Very forgiving of mistakes, if you miss a shot your next shot will be ready to fire and hit before other weapons max TTKs are reached, if your opponent makes a mistake, may RNJesus have mercy upon their soul. It seems the other three weapon classes need a buff to bring their TTKs to be more competitive with these Hand Cannons which would bring all weapon TTKs down to reaction/twitch/flick levels. These HandCannons could be nerfed to make them more unforgiving so their TTK was for the truly skilled (which would just make everyone hate hand cannons even more). Or some other nerf, most likely a small impact nerf so that it takes one extra body shit to kill. But for the love of all that is this game, don't nerf HandCannons into the ground. Very small nerf, just enough so other weapon types are competitive. I love hand cannons, but it's hard to argue for them not being OP in the face of these stats. EDIT: Lots of people are commenting that this is equivalent to the AR nerf posts. I personally call bullshit, cuz I don't remember much of those posts. ARs were nerfed because 98% of players used them, and Deej explained that. Hand Cannons are overpowered, you all know this, if they weren't they wouldn't be THE meta. Weapon usage stats would prove beyond any doubt that Hand Cannons are over powered. EDIT2: Because many of you are reading the title and immediately commenting without reading anything. THE TITLE IS -blam!-ING CLICKBAIT. CLICKBAIT. OBVIOUS CLICKBAIT IS OBVIOUS. EDIT3: I did some math. An equation to represent Hawkmoons 2-shot capability based on mag-size. If you believe Hawkmoon to have too high or too low chance to 2-shot, this equation will give you the mag size you need to yield whatever chance to 2-shot you want. [url=https://twitter.com/daywalkerdoctor/status/611274104495190016]Equation[/url] EDIT 4: Some people apparently don't understand exactly why Thorn and TLW are over powered. Not including true bugs (TLW Hipfire damage while ADS, or Thorn final round on not last round) Thorn as a base gun, is a good gun, it's totally fine. What makes it OP is the DoT, which allows for a two shot headshot 100% of the time. Which you can apply in 1/3 of a second. Easy fix for Thorn, without making it garbage, is to not allow the DoT to kill. This would make the weapon still a great weapon, The DoT would suppress the hell out of someone, and Thorn would still have a great TTK at 0.73s The Last Word is OP because it hits just as hard as Thorn, but has a 36% higher fire rate. Allowing you to land 3 headshots in 1/2 of a second. The fix for The Last Word is to lower it's rate of fire slightly. From 225 rpm to 190 rpm. This keeps the gun at a great TTK of 0.63s, but is not as forgiving of mistakes. (Before if you only missed one shot your TTK was still around 0.75s) I also RESCIND my statement that ALL HandCannons in general need nerfs. Just these two. As they are the only ones that really break the mold. [b]EDIT 5[/b] We'll have to see how things pan out with the 2.0.0 weapon tuning, but Bungie devs are definitely listening! Can't say I 100% agree with some of the changes though. It looks like The Last Word is still going to be a monster, also, who would have thought that my equation on Hawkmoons 2-shot chance based off magazine size would become so relevant to 2.0.0? That's honestly hilarious. Hawkmoons 2 extra bullets don't change it's 2-shot chance very much. It was at 39%, now it's 36%.