The presence of a good build (especially one with very little customizability) doesn't mean mediocre abilities shouldn't be touched up.

There's no realistic way to reinforce AI damage. This is precisely why 'Arc Titan Storm Grenades' got dumpstered after 'Plunder'. . Strand as a subclass sports it's highest ceiling from the use of Tangles and Grappling Grenades. Increasing the potency of AI Damage via Threadlings further reduces the importance of Skill Expression on the class via Grappling. . I know Warlock is the 'Grenade Spam' class, but Strand as an element is a mobility centric, hit & run enforcer.

[quote]Strand as a subclass sports it's highest ceiling from the use of Tangles and Grappling Grenades. Increasing the potency of AI Damage via Threadlings further reduces the importance of Skill Expression on the class via Grappling.[/quote] You're advocating for broodweaver to be a build instead of a full subclass. That's not good for the game. There is room for more than 1 gameplay loop in a whole subclass. Letting weak abilities be better does not take away from the "skill expression" of a grapple spam build. It just lets people use more creative builds that they haven't been using since the subclass came out. [quote]I know Warlock is the 'Grenade Spam' class, but Strand as an element is a mobility centric, hit & run enforcer.][/quote] Broodweaver as a subclass was pitched as a summoner/minion master to us. Threadlings have an interaction with all 4 aspects and a significant interaction with 2.66 of them. The subclass was built for Threadling centered builds not hit and run builds. Grapple can enable them, but that's not the main fantasy of the subclass. Threadlings being impotent and having bad AI is a massive issue. (Storm grenade stopped getting used from hoil/aspect nerfs, not from AI issues btw) Threadling AI needs significant improvement and aspects that feel unimpactful need buffs.

[quote]The subclass was built for Threadling centered builds not hit and run builds.[/quote] That's where your wrong chief!

[quote]“The Warlock is our Strand minion master,” said Smith, when explaining how Destiny 2’s masters of all things (space) magical will utilize Strand. To understand how Warlocks will bend Strand to their will, you have to first understand Threadlings. “Threadlings are explosive minions woven from Strand matter,” he said. “The Warlock Broodweaver, being the cerebral type, is more in tune with Threadlings than the other classes. All Threadlings will run forward, jump on enemies, and explode. But only the Warlock’s Threadlings will return to the Warlock and travel with them if they can’t find a target.” “Let’s say I have three Threadlings and I only need two of them to defeat an enemy. If I’m a Warlock, that last one is going to run back, hop on to me, and condense down into a form that is orbiting me, which is known as ‘perching.’ Then, the next time I attack an enemy, it will pop off and attack that same enemy, which really gives it this sense of having these minions that are doing my bidding. They love me and they want to come back and hang out with me.” [/quote] https://www.bungie.net/7/en/News/article/inside-strand You have no clue what you're talking about. Broodweaver was literally designed to be Threadling centered.

Design be damned. . What works isn't the design, so just embrace it. . Does Warlock really need another slow, pokey, AI reliant build? . NO . It's good to see some flexibility within the playstyle of the class.

Making the subclass viable for its intended role doesn't take away from the ability to use it as a hit/run if you build into it. The subclass not delivering on its fantasy because the part of the subclass all of its aspects interact with is the issue. [quote]Does Warlock really need another slow, pokey, AI reliant build? . NO[/quote] That's why I'm asking for Threadlings to get buffed. So they don't feel slow and pokey... [quote]It's good to see some flexibility within the playstyle of the class[/quote] Flexibility is good, but the subclass isn't flexible. I'm asking for the subclass to be flexible and your response was to tell me to use the build you're using. That's quite literally the opposite of flexible. And don't think Im going to let it slide that you completely shifted goalposts. First I was wrong that the subclass was designed about Threadlings. Now that I linked a Bungie article that proves I wasn't, apparently intended design doesn't matter at all anymore!

You cannot have AI Damage exist with a high skill ceiling. . Speed is the only measure of skill in Destiny. Allowing AI damage to play faster is negative for sandbox health across all fronts. . Risk vs Reward. . That is the name of the game. The greater the risk with the build, the greater the reward. AI damage reduces mechanical demands & risk within a build. In doing so they lower the skill demanded to play the build. . This is unhealthy for the playerbase for numerous reasons I don't care to explain on here. . Ultimately I'm happy Warlock has a viable, aggressive build that can actually pace alongside of Strand Titan or Prismatic Titan with this setup. Allowing Threadlings to increase in power will most reduce the skill expression of aggressive Warlock Builds that demand risk & mechanical skill.

So, the goalposts are moved yet again. Where'd your love for a flexible subclass go now that I pointed out that broodweaver isn't flexible? Speed is not the only measure of skill. Positioning, knowing what you can survive, knowing where enemies come from, managing ability cooldowns and buffs, knowing small interactions between abilities and exotics are all ways to express skill besides speed. And having your Threadlings track enemies doesn't undermine any of that. [quote]Ultimately I'm happy Warlock has a viable, aggressive build that can actually pace alongside of Strand Titan or Prismatic Titan with this setup. Allowing Threadlings to increase in power will most reduce the skill expression of aggressive Warlock Builds that demand risk & mechanical skill.[/quote] Allowing Threadlings to be better doesn't reduce the "skill expression" from that build being a viable, aggressive build that keeps pace with berserker or prismatic titan. Hell one of the suggestions I made for weavers call was to have orbiting Threadlings get manually aimed like the icicles from the new stasis buddy. Which would increase the skill it takes to use them. Giving Threadlings better pathing and making it so they don't all attack one red bar makes the class flexible, which you just said you think is a good thing. And allows people to actually leverage the aspects that all have specific interactions with Threadlings that the subclass was designed to use.

[quote]Speed is not the only measure of skill[/quote] Wrong again. And you're so off the mark with this, that it basically tells me all I need to know. . AI damage builds can never be stronger than mechanically & positionally demanding builds. You don't understand this, but you also don't understand that speed is the only measure of skill in D2 PVE.

You can't just say "YoUrE WrOnG aGaIn" then literally ignore the like 5 other ways to "express skill" I mentioned. And I love how you say "Again" at the end there when I wasn't wrong. YOU were wrong the first time and dropped it like that wasn't just the point you were using after I showed you a Bungie publication that proved you wrong. [quote]AI damage builds can never be stronger than mechanically & positionally demanding builds[/quote] Classic strawman argument. You're arguing against something I never said. I haven't asked for Threadling builds to solo a boss in one phase, I asked for them to be worth using and not waste 5 on an enemy one will kill. [quote]but you also don't understand that speed is the only measure of skill in D2 PVE.[/quote] Factually incorrect. Like I already said. Other ways to measure skill are. Creating endgame ready builds using options considered weak. Knowing what you can and can't survive so that you can make more risky moves Knowing how the enemy AI operates and manipulating it Knowing where enemies come from so that they can be immediately killed and to prevent being attacked from behind. Knowing how to manage your ability charges. This time, how about you not ignore that these are ways to measure skill that have nothing to do with going fast. There are ways other than speed to measure skill that Threadlings being good won't undermine. Just because you don't like these ways to "express skill" doesn't mean they aren't valid expressions of it You were wrong about the class identity and ignored it when proven wrong You say you like flexible classes, but think there's only room for your personal fantasy in the subclass. You keep arguing with points I've never made. You keep ignoring points I am making and just saying I'm wrong without any actual counterpoints. I've given you plenty and chances and still you have not made one argument that wasn't in bad faith and using some kind of logical fallacy. This chat is over.

[quote]but you also don't understand that speed is the only measure of skill in D2 PVE.[/quote] This is factually correct and it's why you have failed to understand my point. . There is[b] ONE [/b]measure of skill in [i]Destiny[/i], that is [b]SPEED[/b]. Nothing else matters.[b] ANYONE[/b] can sit in the back of the map and plink to go flawless in a PVE activity. [b]ANYONE[/b]. [b]Patience is not a skill[/b],[i] it's a characteristic.[/i] . [b]Not all builds are equal[/b]. That is proven by the [i]time[/i] it takes to complete activities on specific builds. This shows up repeatedly on third party trackers- Raid Report, GM Report, Dungeon Report. [b]Buildcrafting is not a skill[/b]. It is [b]'Knowledge' vs 'Ignorance'.[/b] You either understand the numbers and what stats & mods do, or you don't. . There is objective standards of measurement for buildcrafting [b]because[/b] there is a direct numerical correlation to what mods and armor stats achieve. [b]But knowledge isn't a skill.[/b] It's just knowledge. . [b]Speed [/b]is the only measure of skill in Destiny 2 PVE. DO you get it now?

[quote]I've given you plenty and chances and still you have not made one argument that wasn't in bad faith and using some kind of logical fallacy. This chat is over.[/quote] I'm not here to argue more. I have better things to do, but I think pointing out a few more bad faith arguments is funny so I'm going to do that. [quote]b]Not all builds are equal[/b]. That is proven by the [i]time[/i] it takes to complete activities on specific builds.[/quote] You're arguing against a point you want to argue against. Not one I made. (Strawman) [quote]b]Buildcrafting is not a skill[/b]. It is [b]'Knowledge' vs 'Ignorance'.[/b] You either understand the numbers and what stats & mods do, or you don't. . There is objective standards of measurement for buildcrafting [b]because[/b] there is a direct numerical correlation to what mods and armor stats achieve. [b]But knowledge isn't a skill.[/b] It's just knowledge.[/quote] Yes, knowledge itself isn't a skill, and yes there are objective measures of potency of mods and stats, but gaining/retaining/leveraging knowledge to improve performance, AKA buildcrafting, is. You're using true info to come to a conclusion you want to be accepted even though it doesn't support it.(Half truth)

[quote]Yes, knowledge itself isn't a skill, and yes there are objective measures of potency of mods and stats, but gaining/retaining/leveraging knowledge to improve performance, AKA buildcrafting, is..(Half truth)[/quote] Wrong again. Buildcrafting is not a skill. It is 'Knowledge vs Ignorance'. Always has been, always will be. . Put two players on an identical build and they will not have the same performance, because it isn't about the build. It's about your understanding of how to play it and apply it. But that isn't about the mods and fragments you chose to use, rather how you position, move, execute target priority & rotate damage. But it isn't a skill to set up builds. That's gameplay, not buildcrafting. . You've failed to connect the dots concerning speed. The more damage builds have at their disposal, the more cooldowns builds have at their disposal, the faster they can play. Damage cannot be sourced from AI, as that mitigates the actual mechanical, positional and strategic skill it takes to play non-AI damage builds. Threadlings cannot be stronger than Grappling Builds as they do not require ANY form of mechanical or positional skill, and ONLY rely on the timing of use (which is a core component to every ability's ceiling/floor). Threadlings being any stronger mitigates the skill floor of Strand Warlock. The player's ability to deal damage should come at the cost of their positional aggression, mechanical skill and timing, NOT AI.

[quote]Put two players on an identical build and they will not have the same performance, because it isn't about the build. It's about your understanding of how to play it and apply it. But that isn't about the mods and fragments you chose to use, rather how you position, move, execute target priority & rotate damage. But it isn't a skill to set up builds. That's gameplay, not buildcrafting. [/quote] True. Two players performing differently on the same build is due to difference in mechanical skill. But you're using true information to come to a conclusion it doesn't lend itself to. Knowing what mods do and deciding which ones will improve the build YOU are using is a skill. The existence of mechanical skill doesn't make that not a skill. (Half truth) [quote]The more damage builds have at their disposal, the more cooldowns builds have at their disposal, the faster they can play.[/quote] True [quote]Damage cannot be sourced from AI, as that mitigates the actual mechanical, positional and strategic skill it takes to play non-AI damage builds.[/quote] Not the conclusion that that leads to. You're using a true statement to build trust then giving an unrelated opinion as if it's part of that truth (half truth) [quote]Threadlings cannot be stronger than Grappling Builds as they do not require ANY form of mechanical or positional skill, and ONLY rely on the timing of use (which is a core component to every ability's ceiling/floor). Threadlings being any stronger mitigates the skill floor of Strand Warlock. The player's ability to deal damage should come at the cost of their positional aggression, mechanical skill and timing, NOT AI.[/quote] You are once again arguing a point you think you can win against not the one I made. I never said that Threadlings need to be stronger than grapple melees. What I did say is that Threadlings are extremely weak and it undermines the fantasy of broodweaver, so they should be buffed to give the clsubclass another viable play style. (Strawman) Brother. You keep making the same two points and acting like I'm missing the argument. I'm not missing it, it's just a bad argument. How many times do I have to point out the logical fallacy before you realize you have a flimsy argument. I think I'm done talking with you. There's no point in arguing with someone who just wants to be right and refuses to accept that their points are all made in bad faith. Goodbye. I hope you learn better etiquette for future arguments.

Disagreeing with you isn't a lack of etiquette. You just repeatedly talk in circles thinking Threadlings are unjustifiably weak when I've outlined why they can't be strong. Connect the dots. Skill expression: risk vs reward, mechanical & positional skill+timing- these are all reasons to keep AI damage weak. Additionally you've failed to recognize [b]TWO[/b] core philosophies of this conversation, those being[b] KNOWLEDGE is NOT a SKILL[/b] and [b]The ONLY measure of SKILL in D2 is TIME[/b]. . Until you accept these as true, nothing you say is valid. These are cornerstones within the endgame community and once you understand them, you'll improve.