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1/4/2019 7:42:02 PM
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Your study is biased to arrive at a pre-determined outcome.
You even tweeted to Bungie complaining of your terrible Iron Banner experience due to a lack of skill based matchmaking, only to be answered by them that SBMM was in IB.
Now you know it has SBMM, you’ve changed your assessment of Iron Banner. Your only honest assessment was made when you didn’t know IB had SBMM.
TL/DR; You are clearly biased and any conclusions you draw can’t be trusted.
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Edited by Lost Sols: 1/4/2019 7:52:32 PM[quote]You even tweeted to Bungie complaining of your terrible Iron Banner experience due to a lack of skill based matchmaking, only to be answered by them that SBMM was in IB.[/quote] GTFO with making up Trumpian garbage. Please link the tweets that never existed. https://guardian.gg/2/profile/4611686018467399082/tripleWRECK There you go. Would you like me to link you his D1 Hunter stats too or can you Google them yourself?
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[quote]GTFO with making up Trumpian garbage. Please link the tweets that never existed. [/quote] Are you suffering from amnesia? https://twitter.com/lost_sols/status/1043125102173409281?s=21 That’s you complaining to Bungie about no SBMM in IB. You were refuted, then changed your tune.
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That's from September and the first IB of year 2 and all the changes. God damn right it changed my mind. That's what made me start looking at the games and why they were broken. It's not the matchups, it's the rulesets and scoring. So really not sure what your point is.
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Edited by Kustom: 1/5/2019 5:38:22 AMYou cried about getting stomped because IB “didn’t have sbmm” only to find out that it did lmao so of course you had to “change your mind” because again you were flat out wrong. You were still getting wrecked in IB with sbmm, your entire argument is invalid. Oh also I wonder what your stats are in rumble since that also uses sbmm? Edit: well this actually explains it. So we can see your stats and games from when sbmm was on in QP, it’s almost the exact same outcome, you lose games and go negative.. of course you’re going to try and find an excuse as to why.. instead of admitting the issue is you. https://destinytracker.com/d2/profile/xbl/LOSt-sols
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This isn’t about triplewreck’s stats. Whether you prefer SBMM or not, MM should result in the best player experience. You completely ignore any impact SBMM may have on connection quality and equate equality of performance as somehow equaling enjoyment. Until you conduct a study that shows player geographic distribution and ping times compared in both MM types, your “study” will remain biased and of no value.
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Edited by Lost Sols: 1/4/2019 8:06:02 PMActually, until you conduct a study that shows games with skill factored experience significantly more lag than those that don't, your opinion will remain biased and of no value. I've very clearly showed the negative impact on game quality by the lack of a skill factor in QP. When you can do the same for connecting in Iron Banner, come post it. I won't be holding my breath.
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You don’t need a study to demonstrate how SBMM affects connection quality, the pie chart that you posted in one of your other posts proves it. There’s only so much of a piece of the pie and if something occupies the space of it, there’s less room for the other thing. This is third grade common sense, but go ahead and conduct a study to prove the obvious. You are apparently offended, because you still can’t look at things scientifically, but only through the lens of your own desires. If you can’t take that criticism to heart, you’ll remain bound by your own bias.
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You're not a scientist and you have no understanding of how matchmaking works. 1) when skill is factored, connection is still factored as well. One or the other may be weighted higher to be the first criteria looked at, but they're both ultimately factored in. Example: you queue for a game with skill factored. the first criteria will be your region, next skill. The game searches available players in queue that fall within acceptable skill ranges as well as fireteams who's team averages fit that spectrum as well-and here's the key part you all don't understand- it searches all those players who ALSO meet acceptable connection quality. If the game can't fill the lobby within those parameters, it expands the allowable skill range to find a suitable match. 2) even in your Utopia of pure connection based Matchmaking, there are constant lag complaints and don't pretend you don't see them on these forums all the time. That's because the other thing you ignore is that straight CBMM is essentially pointless because the only way for it to truly work and have any real effect would be solo only queues on the regional servers. That doesn't exist and the minute you add fireteams- made up of players grouped together from all over the country and world- every single benefit of straight CBMM goes out the window. It doesn't matter how perfect everyone's connections are in the queue; once the game starts and players have all the game information from all the bullets, abilities, supers and everyone's movements going on, host Johnny in Florida and his buddy Tom in Idaho aren't always going to maintain equal connection quality and they will never have equal latency or ping. And you might be a mile from Johnny playing solo, but you're still playing players from across the country who's latency and ping will never match yours enough to make straight CBMM effective. Hopefully this helps you better understand things.
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You have no idea what I am, and guess what? It doesn’t matter. You don’t need to be a rocket scientist. If skill is being factored, some players outside your skill bracket will be eliminated from your matchmaking pool. If you can’t acknowledge that this has any impact on the connection quality that you could have, It invalidates your argument because you’re not willing to balance all the factors, and focus only on the ones that support your bias.
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Edited by Lost Sols: 1/5/2019 2:01:07 AMI literally just explained to you how the system would work to where it wouldn't exclude anyone based on connection, just on skill and that the skill parameter could be widened without suitable connection matchups. This preservers connection while also preserving skill and ending the extreme mismatches and farming. I also explained to you exactly why straight CBMM doesn't guarantee you connection quality, but oddly you have chosen not to acknowledge either, but rather just focus on your own bias. Oh, wait that works both ways huh? Weird. Difference? I'm stating facts, you're stating opinions.
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Edited by jnikoley: 1/5/2019 2:09:58 AM[quote]I I'm stating facts, you're stating opinions.[/quote] No, you’re making up facts to support your opinion. I’m well aware of how matchmaking works, and I’m probably not the dolt that you believe me to be. You cannot preserve connection quality in any MM. A player pinging low and with low jitter can fluctuate after a match starts. That said, you can’t say that prioritizing skill to any degree has no impact on the level matchmaking prioritizes connection. That would be a lie. The end goal is simple, and is what you are missing. The goal is the players enjoyment. What’s more enjoyable, always ending with a 1.0 K/D, or the ups and downs the come through natural selection? Personally, I prefer to play on a good connection against better players, sometimes performing poorly, but other times being a superstar, without the monotony of being average every single game.
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Low tick rate servers that aren’t dedicated servers are the problem with connections. That’s why connections in Quickplay are still laggy. It’s why all Irron Banner games are more laggy, not the SBMM that’s in the game mode. The servers can’t keep up with calculating the damage dealt and received by players at different power levels when there are 12 of them.
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Edited by jnikoley: 1/5/2019 5:42:19 AMThe net code in destiny is highly complex, and you can’t blame it on the low 10 Hz tick rate of the activity host. There’s also a physics host with a 30 Hz tick rate. Then there’s the peer to peer connection. I’m a bit too tired to break it down in detail, so I’ll provide these links so you can find out for yourself. https://www.gdcvault.com/play/1022247/Shared-World-Shooter-Destiny-s https://youtu.be/ks5lgcCFvvE As complex as the net code is, that doesn’t excuse the fact that skill-based and connection-based matchmaking weighting has on connection quality.
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Are you saying the netcode is fine, it’s not Bugie’s fault there is lag, they don’t need dedicated servers for PVP, or something else?
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I’m not saying that the netcode is fine. Dedicated servers won’t solve lag either. The distance between you and the other players is the biggest contributing factor to lag. With skill-based matchmaking, you’ll be forced to match with some players farther away, but at your skill level, as opposed to players that might be closer to you that are above or below your skill level.
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The connections will be to the server, and not each other though.
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It’s still to each other, with the server between you and another player. Think of it like this: You and your buddy that lives across the street are playing together but the server is 400 miles from you. Instead of the data going straight between you and your buddy, it goes 400 miles to the server then 400 miles back to get to your buddy. Dedicated servers do not solve lag.
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I see. I guess I don’t see what you’re suggesting if you don’t think the netcode is fine.
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[quote]I see. I guess I don’t see what you’re suggesting if you don’t think the netcode is fine.[/quote] And nowhere did I say the net code was fine. The point is... dedicated servers don’t fix lag. Lag is caused by distance between player-player or player-server-player (latency/ping), and that will always be true regardless of good or bad net code.
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You don’t think dedicated servers would improve lag? Because that’s what I hear a lot of PvP players say when they are complaining about lag in their games. Are you saying there is nothing Bungie can do to improve the crucible experience and that dedicated servers won’t help? If you’re so knowledgeable about the netcode and network connectivity for gaming then maybe you can put forth an idea that isn’t “Pure CBMM” because it’s not like all the games players world wide actually live anywhere near each other. Some of us would like to be put into balanced lobbies. We defiantly aren’t getting put into localized lobbies. I know a PvP streamer in Canada and I get matched against them waaaaaaaaay too often in Quick Play considering I don’t live anywhere near Canada.
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Dedicated servers are not a “magic bullet” to solve lag. Of course things can be done to improve connection, but that doesn’t mean dedicated servers are the answer. I would prefer Destiny 2 used dedicated servers to protect our IP addresses so we could at least not be so easily attacked with a DOS. We would need a lot of servers distributed worldwide to have a low ping to the server wherever we were. Bungie simply will not spend the money to do that, so it’s a moot discussion. Players are scattered across the world, but connection-based matchmaking doesn’t mean you can only match with people in your immediate area, it selects the available players that have the best connection to you. In a highly populated area yes, those players will be near to you, but if you’re playing in Siberia, the closest player with the best connection to you might be 2000 miles away but, you’re matching with that player 2000 miles away instead of one that is 8000 miles away. Having a balanced match is fine, so long as it doesn’t have a negative effect on connection quality like we experienced in destiny one when skill-based matchmaking was first implemented. I feel SBMM is being too heavily weighted in Iron Banner as I get matched outside of my continent very frequently in Iron Banner. I live in the middle of the USA. There’s no reason to be matched with people in Europe, Asia, etc. so consistently.
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[quote][quote]I I'm stating facts, you're stating opinions.[/quote] No, you’re making up facts to support your opinion.[/quote] No, actually I'm telling you exactly how it works. It's your choice to listen or to remain willfully ignorant. [quote]I’m well aware of how matchmaking works, and I’m probably not the dolt that you believe me to be.[/quote] No, you obviously don't. [quote]You cannot preserve connection quality in any MM. A player pinging low and with low jitter can fluctuate after a match starts.[/quote] So you do understand that no matter what you do, including sacrificing matchup quality, it could end up meaning -blam!- all once the game begins. [quote]That said, you can’t say that prioritizing skill to any degree has no impact on the level matchmaking prioritizes connection. That would be a lie.[/quote] If you read anything I've told you, the system can exist with both and yes, one will have higher initial priority. It really doesn't matter which if the other is there to keep things in balance on both fronts. [quote]The end goal is simple, and is what you are missing. The goal is the players enjoyment. [/quote] No, that's what you're missing. https://destinytracker.com/d2/pgcr/3377847485 https://destinytracker.com/d2/pgcr/3384930969 That shit right there isn't fun. Unless 3 players quit out of that first game because it was so fun they just had to let others experience it, huh? [quote]What’s more enjoyable, always ending with a 1.0 K/D, or the ups and downs the come through natural selection?[/quote] Sbmm doesn't give everyone a 1.0 kd and that statement is just dumb. Yeah those first 3 1/2 years of D1, year one of D2 and IB where everyone finishes the games with the same scores, kills and deaths were/are awful. Oh, wait... [quote]Personally, I prefer to play on a good connection against better players, sometimes performing poorly, but other times being a superstar, without the monotony of being average every single game.[/quote] Yeah, being a superstar against players you have no business playing. Woo hoo.
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There’s too much there for me to care to pick at piece by piece. I’m no superstar, though. I’ve played against the best and the worst. I’ve been on a team blowing out the other, and vice versa. I prefer the chaos to a guided system that aims to make everyone a 1.0 k/d. There’s room for SBMM to coexist if there’s a healthy player-base. You will have blowouts whether there’s SBMM or not, it’s chaos, and until you make damage referee adjust damage output on the fly, it will continue to be the case. That’s why those matches you link mean nothing. You can’t attribute it to SBMM/CBMM. I just want to know there’s no outside influence, SBMM or otherwise influencing the outcome. I want to play on an even playing field, which to me is an unaltered one.
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Edited by TJ_Dot: 1/5/2019 2:14:16 AM[quote]natural selection[/quote] They think this basic thought process that's been a basic reality in games is exploitative of lower tier players / older people.
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I’m an older player. I’d feel more exploited if my efforts to improve made no difference and I could never be more or less than average. It’s a philosophical argument with parallels between socialism and capitalism. Perhaps I’m over analyzing it, but the thought has crossed my mind. I would rather trust the natural order of things than man’s adjustments to make things “fair”.
