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Edited by Lost Sols: 1/4/2019 8:35:03 AM
38

Breaking Down Triplewreck’s “Thoughts on QuickPlay and SBMM” 4 1/2 Months Later

I posted the other day on my experience this last week in Iron Banner and the huge impact that skill factoring in the playlist had on my enjoyment of the Crucible. Today I’m going to directly address the arguments against sbmm. I actually spent about 4 hours writing a response to Triplewreck’s reddit post on the topic 4 months ago and unfortunately bungie.net froze when I tried posting it and I lost the entire thing. I ended up still writing about sbmm at the time, but never directly addressed his post. Today I am. I made the video about a week and a half ago on what is going to be this post. I was going to wait until after the holidays to publish it, but decided to do another post instead. I was still debating posting or not, but then in my Iron Banner thread someone linked me a video from Lono (SayNoToRage) giving his thoughts on sbmm and I like Lono, but his statements about sbmm were simply not correct and he referenced TW’s reddit post quite often. I’m going to be posting TW’s comments in sections and breaking down each as I go along. Going to post it all in the comment section with links to the parts. I'm tired of this misinformation being spread throughout the community and I'm tired of having my Destiny experience dictated by 10% of the player base. I respect the developers at Bungie immensely and I am forever grateful for the opportunities they have allowed me to experience both within the game and in real life, but everyday I feel less and less like this is the game I've known and loved for the last 4 years. I hope things change and I hope it can be a game for everyone again. Thank you. [url=https://www.bungie.net/en/Forums/Post/250424068?sort=0&page=0&path=1]Part 1[/url] [url=https://www.bungie.net/en/Forums/Post/250424085?sort=0&page=0&path=1]Part 2[/url] [url=https://www.bungie.net/en/Forums/Post/250424092?sort=0&page=0&path=1]Part 3[/url]
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  • SBMM should only be in Comp. CBMM should be for quuckplay. End of story

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  • 75% of the PvP Gamemodes are already SBMM. If anything, there should be more CBMM gamemodes lol.

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    • SBMM always ruins the connection quality, whenever they exclude players based on stats, you are less likely to fill the lobby with players that live in the same region as you, and the further away the opponents live the more lag there will be. On top of making a game that is inconsistent to begin with lag almost constantly, SBMM extends the queue times. Quickplay, IB, Rumble, and all the weekly playlists should be 100% connection based to minimize lag issues and queue times. What they need to do is fix comp so it is actually a ranked mode where people play close games most of time instead of it being plagued by mismatches of significantly different glory scores or stacks playing solos.

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      • 1
        Hey, look! another butthurt noobie. Cry me river.

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        • 1
          Tl;dr OP is garbage at pvp and wants a steady stream of even worse players so that he can feel better about himself [spoiler]Newsflash kid, you just need to git gud[/spoiler]

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          • Will you quit circle jerking the sbmm wave? Sure triplewreck is a skilled player and your argument is that he shouldn’t say anything disregarding sbmm because he just wants to keep winning. Absolutely I hate getting pub stomped by 6 stacks but what you failed to mention in your iron banner post was that latency in banner was a lot worse than normal quickplay. This also happens in comp along with the abnormally longer wait time. Even if bungie’s servers overall are flawed, they’re still better than whatever sbmm connection has to offer. I don’t want to have bad lag every time I try to enter any game of crucible with players across the world from me

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          • You're free to type whatever you want, it doesn't make it true and it doesn't mean we all have the same experience. For me, Iron Banner absolutely sucks. It feels completely off. The level of inconsistency is the most frustrating thing for me in this game right now. The difference between QP and IB has felt like this, for me, since the SBMM change. I have a much better overall experience in QP. So, I won't support SBMM.

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            • Seen your tweets you look like a cry baby just like your posts.

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              • Looked at your recent games, you still do shit against players below or on par elo. Sorry bud SBMM won‘t fix your experience

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                • Your study is biased to arrive at a pre-determined outcome. You even tweeted to Bungie complaining of your terrible Iron Banner experience due to a lack of skill based matchmaking, only to be answered by them that SBMM was in IB. Now you know it has SBMM, you’ve changed your assessment of Iron Banner. Your only honest assessment was made when you didn’t know IB had SBMM. TL/DR; You are clearly biased and any conclusions you draw can’t be trusted.

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                  • Nice personal attacks on people who disagree with you. And then throwing “trumpian garbage”. Stop being so bitter about a president you do not agree with. Yes he is the president, yes he doesn’t act presidential, yes he is doing some sketchy stuff, hopefully in 2020 the DNC will have someone decent to vote for instead of the same people over and over again. I think you should move on from this game, but clearly you might be a tad bit addicted. Happy new year bud.

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                    • Edited by RUSSIAN2URDEATH: 1/4/2019 9:55:27 PM
                      CBMM haters/SBMM supporters : What they say: "I'm tired of getting stomped every game by top tier players and streamers" What they fail to realize: -if they are average or above average, they likely play against players who are worse than them as much or more than they play against players that are better -there is a playlist designed to pit you against players of relatively similar skill once you plateau, and yet the "I want SBMM" crowd avoids it like the plague because deep down, they dont want to try to win (the very thing they accuse "top tier players" of) -skill is already factored in QP. How do I know? Because when I play QP solo I rarely run into truly bad players, when I play with my less skilled friends (or on their accounts) I run into significantly worse players than I do solo. When I team up into a 4-6 man of all top 5% or better players, I suddenly match against notably better players accross the board. Skill is factored, not heavily but it is. -SBMM is worse for connection quality than CBMM. This is not opinion it is fact, and destiny doesn't need any help having bad connections

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                      • I find it hilarious that people think that they haven't done anything to matchmaking since this summer.

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                      • You just disregard those that have made other suggestions on how to fix matchmaking on your other posts, you want SBMM back, and want to be the one that makes it come back. But, there are other ways to reduce the stomping and improve the average players experience. One of those ways, is as I stated on one of your many posts, simply remove stat tracking from QP. If the top players go into QP to pad their stats, remove that ability completely. QP=Stats disabled. With no motivation to stomp to pad stats, you would see far less high skilled in the QP playlist. Add the choice of a SBMM playlist, or a CBMM playlist. Let the players decide which they want to go into. I suggested something pretty radical awhile back. Two crucibles. One that is the D2 Y1 crucible with everything that it had, duel primaries, shotguns in the heavy slot, less heavy spawns. And one that is the current crucible. See which has the better population, and go from there. JUST QUIT PLAYING, without the cannon fodder, high would face high and things would change. Without the lows going back to be stomped time and time again, not only would the high levels face themselves again, but their connections would suffer from the low playerbase. What I am saying, is that you really do have others that support your cause, don't discount their opinions because you consider this "Your Cause". You do take a lot of time to try to show what is going on in crucible, I give you credit for that, but there are other ways to get matchmaking changed and the simple fact is that you NEED other players support and suggestions, without them, you are one person bitching on a forum.

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                        • You are a console peasant and you haven’t even stepped foot in comp this season so we are supposed to take you seriously?

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                          • Why is your experience being dictated by 10% of the gamer base. This game is for streamers and try hards , I read this all the time. Your post has about 150 responses, and all the PvP posts are responded by many of the same people. All of the PvP threads makes up less than 1% of the community. So let's have the game dictated by less than 1% of the community. We tried that in D1, and by year three it was a watered down piece of crap. While were at, why is this game always being dictated by PvP players. You never see posts that blade barrage and nova warp, are op in the raid or strike they need nerfed.

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                          • Edited by Lost Sols: 1/4/2019 8:21:42 AM
                            [quote]Quote #1 After reading the news that Bungie has confirmed that Quick Play is seemingly not using Skill-Based Matchmaking “correctly” and they are considering a “fix” I wanted to give my thoughts as an avid Crucible player since the D1 alpha: Quick Play is supposed to be fun above all else. Freedom to play how you want, with who you want. Get into a match ASAP and just shoot some Guardians. As a “top” player I have lost countless games and have gotten “stomped” myself. And that’s okay. Because it's Quick Play.[/quote] He played 9846 games on his Hunter in D1 and won 79% or roughly 7778 with a 2.45 kd. In year 1 of Destiny 2 (before the removal of sbmm), he played approximately 2526 QuickPlay games and won 76% with a record of 1908 wins and 618 losses with a kd again around 2.45 TW has never “lost countless games” or gotten “stomped” and it’s incredibly disingenuous for a player who’d won 11,754 games and lost only 2686 through D1 and D2 at that point to make that statement. [quote]Quote #2 Fun and winning are not mutually exclusive. Moreover; losing is okay. After all, it’s the quickest way to learn how to improve. Without SBMM, the vast majority of players have a varied experience as the actual number of highly-skilled stacks “terrorizing” the population are few and far between.[/quote] “Fun and winning are not mutually exclusive” is again and odd assertion from a player who wins 78% of his games. Losing is not fun and getting your head kicked in is decidedly less fun. As the great Ayrton Senna said, “We are competing. We are competing to win and the main motivation to all of us is to compete for victory, it’s not to come 3rd, 4th, 5th or 6th” The second statement about the population being few and far between is also not true and it’s something that Lono echoed in his sbmm video, that we’ll almost never see top players in our games. That topic is actually the main focus of my previous blog as out of my last 113 QuickPlay games, I faced a top 10-15% (Platinum, Diamond, Master Tier) player in 63 out of 113 games. 18 of those games had at least one on each side and 45 of the games had them on only one team. So rather than “never seeing them”, the reality is that they are actually in 55% of my games and completely breaking the matchups in 40% of them. I’m not going to re-post all the numbers here, but I recommend giving that post a read as well. The previous Iron Banner I did a similar write-up and in the 74 QP games I played after that IB ended, 43% of the games had Platinum, Diamond or Master Tier players in them. The reality of QuickPlay is that there are at least 1 or 2 high level players in about 1 out of every 2-2.5 games the average player plays. Compare that to my last 2 Iron Banners where over 184 tracked games, 27 had a platinum player in them (14%) with no Diamond and no Master Tier players. There is a huge difference in the quality of the experience. Iron Banner is fun, QuickPlay makes me want to uninstall the game and my friends won’t touch it outside of their bounties. So the question for me becomes, why do players who win almost 80% of their games not want to have to play as many players their own skill level? And this is key to the entire debate because the argument we always hear is that sbmm makes games “too sweaty” and that players have to “try their hardest to win every game with sbmm”, and yet the main thing thrown in our faces for wanting it back in the game is that we “want easier games”. So which is it? Because it cannot be both. I did some digging and went through a lot of TW’s games and the numbers show very clearly who the removal of sbmm really benefits. In D2 before sbmm was removed his QP record was 1908 wins and 618 losses (76%). Since sbmm was removed from the game his record was 988 wins and 185 losses as of a little over a week ago. That’s winning 84% of his games. I also went back and got full stats from his last 72 QP games to compare them vs my experience and over those 72 games he had a 4.42 kd. That’s almost 2 kills higher than his career Destiny average (D1 and D2). He played 446 opponents over those 72 games. 38 were Bronze, 265 Silver, 96 Gold, 23 Platinum, 21 Diamond and 3 Master (his skill tier). I’m playing top 15% players in over 40% of my QP games. He’s playing players below his skill in 99.6% of his QP games and at his skill in just 0.4% THIS is the reality of the removal of skill from QuickPlay. [quote]Quote #3 It’s also your prerogative to leave a match if you’re not having fun, or even back out of the pregame lobby if you are intimidated for whatever reason. And that’s okay. Because it’s Quick Play.[/quote] This really bothered me at the time and still does today. This is awful advice and it’s a genuine problem in the game now with people constantly quitting out of matches and then others getting dropped into games in-progress. [quote]Quote #4 An argument (albeit a weak one) in the case of D1 was that there was no ranked mode. That is not the case with D2. So for those who want a consistent, challenging experience you can choose the Competitive playlist.[/quote] Beyond the fact that Comp is not skill based, is 4v4 and completely different game modes for most of it, telling players who don’t like getting their heads kicked in every other game by a top 15% player to go play the playlist that Bungie made exclusively for the players doing the curb-stomping makes absolutely no sense. [url=https://www.bungie.net/en/Forums/Post/250424085?sort=0&page=0&path=1]Part 2[/url]

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                            • Alot of us agree with you, youre right. But we're still downvoting this just because its you...whining as usual. Just sayin'

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                              • [quote]Quote #9 Things are on the uptick. Over the last few months the game has improved in a myriad of ways thanks to improved communication from the devs, and more importantly; a willingness to harness community feedback better than ever before. Now, on the eve of Forsaken it seems like Bungie is building momentum toward turning a corner with D2 with significant structural changes. Bungie needs to make a choice: do you want a larger, healthier population? Or do you want to segregate groups of players in a playlist that was specifically designed to be “low intensity”? Given the effect we’ve seen on Crucible ever since Taken King introduced SBMM back in 2015, I think the correct choice is self-evident.[/quote] QuickPlay is “low-intensity” for about 10% of the player base. For the rest of us it’s a f****** nightmare half of our games. There is nothing low intensity about facing these players all running full comp loadouts and trying to kick the shit out of everyone. TrueVanguard is a good dude, but he posted last week about getting two 55 kill games. His opponents those two games were all 1000+ ELO below him. That’s like LeBron James going to the local park and throwing down 60 in a pick-up game with the locals. And also no, The Taken King did not introduce sbmm. It was weighted higher in the algorithm because one of the top player complaints D1 year 1 was uneven matches and players quitting out, which is ironic because here we are right back in that same boat. [quote]Quote #10 It’s no secret that Crucible is a major part of why millions invested themselves with Destiny. A strong argument can be made that it essentially carried Destiny 1 through numerous content droughts. As such, I strongly feel that it’s imperative to the health of the franchise for PvP to not just be present, but for it to be great. This “bug” with Quick Play matchmaking is a powerful example in teaching us the impact one singular improvement can make. People are feeling good, hype is returning, and so are players. Please discard SBMM in Quick Play permanently and instead focus on good connections and per-lobby team balancing whenever possible.[/quote] Players were returning for the hope of Forsaken and all the changes on the horizon to PvE and the sandbox in PvP. Also, a lot of players never left or only put the game down between DLCs because D2 Y1 allowed that. The removal of sbmm has not had any discernible positive effect on the game that can’t just be chalked up to the switch to 6v6 and the changes to the sandbox. I can say for a fact that it has had a very real and very large impact on my enjoyment of the game and makes me not want to play and I am not alone in that. The real tragedy of that is Iron Banner’s matchmaking really would drastically improve game quality for most of the population and for most of the top tier it would be a wash versus what they have now. I hope Bungie is looking very hard at the internal data, because this game is not just played by the vocal minority streaming, on YouTube, or posting on forums and twitter. There need to be voices within the studio advocating for the silent majority who have to deal with the consequences of catering the entire game to 10% of the population. [quote]Quote #11 EDIT: I appreciate the multitude of responses and the many who engaged in this discussion. Recognizing that tangible player choice highly important along with providing a good experience to as many people as possible, I propose the following: · Better per-lobby team balancing · A system to protect new players for a period of time · Introducing a new playlist variant of Quick Play with SBMM (perhaps make it solo/duo-queue only?)[/quote] We already had the first two, it was called skill based matchmaking and no thanks to a new playlist that we can’t play with our friends. That’s the reality of QuickPlay and SBMM.

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                                • Edited by Lost Sols: 1/4/2019 8:44:47 AM
                                  [quote]Quote #5 (broken up into parts) SBMM does not belong in Quick Play for a number of important reasons: · SBMM has been universally disliked in every game that has attempted to apply it to casual playlists (D1, CoD, Fortnite, etc.)[/quote] The only truth in this statement is that it’s been disliked by he and his contemporaries since D1. Never before D1 had there been this kind of reaction to skill in matchmaking from high profile influencers and yes, it has since spread to Fortnite as well, but the basis of all the anti-sbmm movement has been completely fabricated from the start. [quote] · SBMM causes many players to play less and/or quit entirely[/quote] Not having SBMM causes many players to play less and/or quit entirely. It’s funny how that works. I can show very easily from my game results that FAR more players quit out of my QP games than Iron Banner, beyond that his statement has no basis in fact or reality and there is nothing he can show to prove it is true. [quote]· SBMM restricts your ability to enjoy non-meta play[/quote] For 196 Iron Banner games I could play with what I wanted and try different things because I wasn’t going up against a top 15% player running Luna’s/NF/DRB/Wardcliff/Hammerhead every single goddamn game while trying to put up 50 and get 7th Columns and WROoM. No one and I mean NO ONE who’s a top player in QP is playing non-meta and just chilling. [quote]· SBMM prevents friends of different skill levels from having fun together (the worst thing for a social game)[/quote] All it takes is one trip through post game stats of a high level running with a low in Iron Banner to show this isn’t true. Iron Banner has skill in matchmaking and it takes the average fireteam skill. So if a 1700 is playing with a 1200, their average will be 1450. Beyond that, the games will still mostly be silver and gold opponents regardless. Also, not having sbmm is preventing my friends and I from playing and having fun together so… [quote]· SBMM inevitably harms connection quality in a P2P-based multiplayer[/quote] Another universal cornerstone of the anti-sbmm movement and still as completely false today as it was 2 years ago. Skill being factored does not preclude connection also being factored. They are both components in a complex algorithm that works to match players in the game. When skill is factored and no players within the acceptable skill range also meet the required connection criteria, the game is able to expand the allowable skill range until it finds a player or players who fit both skill and connection within acceptable ranges. I played with 2352 players last week in IB and I saw maybe 6-8 laggy players and only 3-4 that were what I would call bad. I also looked at TW’s stats from the 16 Iron Banner games he played with skill enabled the previous IB to this last one. 89% of his opponents were still Bronze through Gold. 4 Bronze, 46 Silver, 34 Gold, 6 Platinum and 4 Diamond. The fact is, the game isn’t going to be able to or ever would match those players to strictly their own skill. What it does do is match them far less against Bronze opponents and it tries to at least get a player or two close to their skill on the other team when it can. It also will match them vs solo players much less often. There is another myth that sbmm is intended to give everyone a 50/50 win loss record and we hear that all the time from the anti-sbmm crowd. It’s of course not true. The actual intent is to give both teams as close to a 50/50 chance of winning as possible going into the game rather than one team having a 10% chance of winning and the other 90%. When the match-ups are fair and balanced, our actions matter more and we can actually have an impact on whether we win or lose games. It isn’t fun or fair when we’re grossly outmatched by someone dropping 40+ while 3 players on our team combine for 3 kills and 40 deaths. [quote]Quote #6 In Halo, Bungie had Social and Ranked (they even had additional matchmaking filters YOU could choose!). Most games have a variation of that. It works for a reason; it gives players a clear choice in the type of PvP experience they have. That is important, and it is good.[/quote] Players should be able to choose their PvP experience and since the removal of skill from QuickPlay, only one portion of the community has had a choice and it’s not the average player. [quote]Quote #7 An anecdote: Before this past week, I played very little D2 Crucible despite being known as a “hardcore” Destiny PvPer. That is because SBMM has been so pervasive that even in the beta I was matching the same 20 people I had played for years in post-TTK D1. Going into D2 Crucible with anything less than a full-stack using meta loadouts was a miserable experience most of the time, and before long most of my friends had quit along with me.[/quote] 2526 QP games are not “very little” and no he was not playing the same 20 people over and over while winning 1908 of those games. Also the “full stack with meta loadouts” had nothing to do with sbmm. D2 year 1 was all 4v4 with over 1 second weapon kill times, 3 hit melee kills, grenades that could not OHK and supers and weapons that were of no comparison to what is in the game today. It was all about stacking and team-shooting and again had zero to do with sbmm. [quote]Quote #8 Then 6v6 Quick Play went live, and to my surprise; matches were refreshingly all over the spectrum! Some games were very easy, some games were very hard, and many were in-between. There was variety. Hell, I was even going into matches solo, and despite all the current problems with the gameplay, I hadn’t had this much fun since the first year of Destiny PvP. The “just one more game” itch was back. In fact, just the other day I planned on doing a couple games to end the night and before I knew it SIX HOURS had flown by. It legitimately put a smile on my face, and upon telling my friends this many of them returned to start playing again. The community I’ve missed just as much as the game is showing signs of life.[/quote] And the real tragedy is that we will never know how great the Crucible could have been for EVERYONE with skill still factored from just the move back to 6v6 and the subsequent sandbox changes with Forsaken. To pretend they didn’t play the lion’s share in the changes in the enjoyment of the experience from year one to year two would be disingenuous as well. We now have in my opinion the best sandbox the game has ever had and I want to uninstall it constantly because the matchmaking is so punishing in QP and none of my friends want anything to do with that dumpster fire. [url=https://www.bungie.net/en/Forums/Post/250424092?sort=0&page=0&path=1]Part 3[/url]

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                                • Bungie needs professional developers, not lifeless streamer children dictating the direction of their game.

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                                • Did you have fun in IB? IB had SBMM. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

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                                • The PvP in Destiny has always felt, to me at least, like little more than an afterthought. I have difficulty understanding how people can take it even a little bit seriously.

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                                • I wonder if it’s the angry mob of TrippleWreck fans or the angry mob of pubstomping in quickplay fans mass downvoting this. Like all content creators of course TW defends this change. It benefits them financially. Pre-Warmind they had to play against other players at their level so they weren’t “dropping 40 bombs” for YouTube videos or killing people that that stand still looking some where else while they get shot down on stream as if it makes them look “good at the game”. They get more viewers more subs more tips for being “good” and they aren’t even playing against players at their level in QP or Comp really. So I don’t find this post particularly outlandish. I meant it’s long and all that but that doesn’t make it bad.

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                                  • You guys need to have your heads examined. Lol.. Why are you [i]still[/i] analyzing D2 pvp? Hardly anyone cares and it's not going to change. It sucks. The end.

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                                    • If you want sbmm back that means you’re going to play against players similar to your skill or better. You’re not going to get noobs.

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