Let me start by saying thank you Cozmo for a little bit of transparency, it's nice to see that from Bungie these days. Hopefully you take what's being said on these forums into consideration and looking past the one-sided "Buff this because it's my favorite, and nerf this because it kills me too much" arguments.
I've been playing this game hardcore since May 2015 and I've seen the greatest times in the Crucible come and go. I've also been there when, in my opinion, things were worse than they are now (let's not forget about the Universal Remote and the Doctrine metas). I know nothing about coding or development but I can at least give feedback on what me and many others think would improve the overall enjoyment in the Crucible.
I'd like to begin by saying that [i]I do not think shotguns need a nerf at all[/i], and this is coming from a two year sniper main. It's easy to put all the blame on something in the crucible when it's visibly the strongest thing on the market. Shotguns themselves are not over-powered though, [i]the problem lies within primary weapons not being able to kill someone running at you in straight line fast enough[/i]. Destiny player movement is incredibly unique, with many movement altering abilities and exotics. It's easy to close the gap between you and another player when their primary weapon does very little damage to stop you. Instead of immediately looking at shotguns as the source of the problem, try to look at the bigger picture and think, why can't I stop this guy from running at me? In Year 1 the Last Word was the perfect shotgun counter, in the middle of TTK the Doctrine would mow down any shotgun warrior. Now we have nothing to consistently stop someone from running straight at us. This was made worse by the absolute destruction of sniper rifles in the last weapon update. More people are inclined to use shotguns because snipers are not as effective. I do understand people's frustration, but nerfing another weapon type is not the way to go about it.
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So what should we do? [/i]
I believe that an overall primary weapon buff would be the most effective way of making crucible interesting and satisfying again.
[b]Hand Cannons[/b]
- [i]Remove bloom from hand cannons completely[/i], damage drop-off where it's at is enough of a balancing factor. Hand cannons take skill to use, and a three tap should be rewarded.
- Removing bloom would also eliminate the absolute necessity for rifled barrel, as hand cannon range is directly associated with the accuracy stat
- Please look at the Thorn, the Last Word, and Hawkmoon. [i]These weapons are no longer exotic feeling[/i], as they have been nerfed countless times. A weapon that is exotic should feel exotic, not just look the part. Thorn DoT is in a good place, but the accuracy this gun has is pitiful, the Last Word is lucky to hit 3 out of its 8 bullets, and the Hawkmoon... well one day hopefully this thing will hit its mark again.
[b]Pulse Rifles[/b]
- Revert Hawksaw archtype Pulse Rifle damage back to how it was at the release of Taken King
- Revert low RoF Pulse Rifle damage back to how it was at the end of House of Wolves, there isn't even a reason to use low RoF Pulse Rifles anymore in their current state
- [i]Remove HCR from high RoF Pulse Rifles[/i], they should not be out gunning Scouts at range due to a broken perk. [i]Flinch makes primary gunfights RNG[/i], which should not determine the winner and the loser.
- Again, I can't think of any of the exotic Pulse Rifles being stronger than their legendary counterparts.
[b]Auto Rifles[/b]
- It's hard for me to speak on Auto Rifles because I have never used them, but an overall Damage buff seems favored by most. Not any of that .04% mess either. I'm talking large percentage buffs!
[b]Scout Rifles[/b]
- Scouts seem to be in a good place, it might be smart to put High Caliber rounds on all of them intrinsically though, as no body uses legendary Scout Rifles for anything PvP related it seems.
[i]Now onto special weapons! [/i]
Special weapons themselves feel wonky these days. While shotguns seem to dominate the crucible, they too at times have their fallbacks. Remember though, [u]shotguns are not the problem[/u].
[b]Sniper Rifles[/b]
- I believe that an overall reduction in flinch would be an incredibly solid buff to sniper rifles. It's almost ridiculous the amount your reticle bobs all over the place when your being gunned at by a high-caliber pulse rifle. In my opinion, [i]flinch makes this game not fun[/i], and is a mechanic that should be heavily adjusted.
- A reduction in body shot damage, with increased headshot damage on mid high impact snipers would be lovely, please reward us for sniping a storm caller mid Ionic Blink.
[b]Shotguns[/b]
- Shotguns right now feel fine, especially with the introduction of the Matador, I find my shotgun blanking much less than before.
- In air accuracy on shotguns, as well as on ground accuracy could have a consistency buff? If that's even a thing. I hate it when I'm in the proper range and all of the sudden my shotgun shoots a health pack at my enemy.
- Why does my shotgun seem to jam when I equip it some time? I'll pull the trigger and it won't shoot. Maybe a glitch? Or a balancing factor. /shrug
[b]Fusion Rifles[/b]
- I've never been one to use Fusion Rifles, but when I do, I can't kill a damn thing.
- Fusion Rifle handling seems incredibly low, and they are only viable with the perk hot-swap
- Fusion Rifle bolt accuracy could be buffed a bit.
- Again not my strong suit, so my opinion on them should be taken lightly.
This is just a view on a potential weapon balance. There's no thoughts on subclass changes here. If a post comes up asking for those, I'll express my ideas there.
I'd like to add that I am by no means an amazing player who is just trying to get my way and pubstomp. I'm always looking out for the casual player, as well as the dude that likes to bring his No Land Beyond and favorite Fusion Rifle into a Control match and still do well with them. Hopefully this post can bring attention to what me and many of my friends feel like the problem with the Crucible is. If anyone has questions or feedback to share on my ideas, I would love to hear them.
[b]tl;dr[/b]
- [u]Shotguns are not the problem[/u].
- Shotguns seem like the problem because primaries are too weak to stop them.
- [u]Buff primaries[/u] (remove bloom, increase AR damage, increase low RoF Pulse Damage).
- Remove HCR from Pulse Rifles (Flinch is not a fun mechanic).
- Make sniping great again.
English
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Edited by SILVAAHBAAK: 12/15/2016 9:16:06 PM@cozmo <Sigh>.... I frankly do not understand all of the nerfing and weapon balancing etc. I mean all of these weapons (individually or something else within the various archetypes) are relatively easy to have drop for you in the current meta. Furthermore, I am even [u]MORE[/u] frustrated with the sub-class nerfing that goes on. For the record, I main a Warlock (399) but also have a Titan (398) and a Hunter (399) - I love all 3 sub-classes for various situations in PvP and PvE. As an aside, just leave the sub-classes alone, gosh-darnit...lol A little off-topic but I mean honestly, EVERY guardian has access to the same perks and abilities for each and every cub-class of character, so why are we nerfing them? If you think Blade dancers are OP in crucible, friggin play a Blade Dancer and be OP too; if Stiker Titans are your nemesis, rock one of those! Or better yet, pick another subclass that is also "OP" according to your nemesis and wreck them. Goodness, everybody of all sub-classes seems to feel that another sub-class is "OP" in some way. If that is the case, surely there is some level of balance - at least the perception of balance. Everyone can't be "OP" in all situations...lol If that is the case, things seem pretty balanced to me! I can better understand the nerfs of weapons that are subject to RNG perks (i.e. not all Matadors are created the same), but even with weapon balancing, I have reservations. Here is why... [u]Exotics[/u]: Every exotic weapon is the same (i.e. they roll with the exact same stats - all Icebreakers are the same, all Last Words are the same, etc.). If you want an OP weapon in an exotic, get that exotic - Bungie PLEASE don't nerf it down to "legendary" status. In some cases, these "exotics" no longer feel exotic - I'd rather rock their legendary counterparts. Bungie: PLEASE stop nerfing exotics! They are all the same and from my experience, EVERYONE has access to the same exotics and exotic quests via raids or whatever. Players just have to grind harder for some than others...lol Yeah, Matador 64 is great, but I have a Party Crasher +1 that is as good or better than my best Matador, for example. Yeah, Grasp of Malok is great (and I have had like 15 of them since year 2) but now there are other pulse rifles in that archetype (namely Clever Dragon for starters) that can rival or even surpass the Grasp. Yeah Doctrine of Passing is/was great but now there are others in the archetype (e.g. Soulstealers Claw, Arminius D, etc.) that can shred equally well. The point is there should be enough balance in the game organically with the common distribution of all weapons. I am not much of a shotgun warrior, I prefer fusion rifles, but yes in certain close quarter maps with lots of bends, corners, nooks and crannies, shotguns and hand cannons will wreak havoc - and I've been known to whip out a Matador or Party Crasher. In other more open, long-range maps, snipers and scouts reign supreme - in other maps that are more blended, you can get great mileage out of pulse rifles and shorter ranged/lower impact/faster firing scouts, for example the MIDA or Distant Star. The point is that is appears to me that folks need to pick the weapon for the map and that all weapons are NOT created equal in all scenarios. And when you are in a map that sucks for your weapons, you have to change tactics, etc. This seems painfully obvious to me. Guardians use what works well for them. I have been dominated by snipers, last Worders, shotgunners, and Palindrome toting guardian killers in some games and likewise, I have flipped the script using Grasps, Clever Dragons, Burning Eyes, Plan C, Saladin's Vigils, and even Matadors (from time to time) and beat up on shotgun warriors and snipers. Loitering around straight away areas and staying away from corners is a great way to [b]MURDER[/b] shotgun warriors who charge at you in a straight line. It all depends on the map and how you play it. Tactics matter... So instead of crying about shotgun warriors, whip out killer sidearms or Plan C, or play the maps more to your advantage and shotgun warriors disadvantage (I know this is not possible in all situations but you see where I am going with this). Some maps just suck for snipers, others suck for shotgun warriors, some maps are blended, etc. This is how Bungie designed the game...lol If Bungie and the Destiny community feels certain weapons are REALLY out of whack-and-totally OP, the way to "balance the playing field" is not to nerf those weapons but to make sure they are plentiful and drop with relatively "equal" perks (we are talking PvP perks) so that most players can get them if they really want it. The other way Bungie can level the playing field is to make sure that other good COUNTER weapons are available. Just my thoughts...
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I respect that this is your opinion, but the way you talk about this game is as if it's solely to play hardcore, superhard, if you lose you must commit harakiri kind of deal (Obviously that's abbot of an exaggeration). But people don't want to only use OP stuff, a blanket buff on underpowered things in the game would be better than nerfs on a few things. And the reason people don't always use "OP" subclasses is because it's a game goddammit and they shouldn't be punished for wanting to have fun using Defender or Sunsinger, or Gunslinger or whatever really isn't that good in the meta. The way this needs to be looked at isn't a "look at all the people complaining when they could just use the stuff themselves" point of view, but rather a "How can we let everyone have fun, while allowing for all weapons, abilities, and supers to feel different and be used viably". This is my opinion though, and if I completely misunderstood your post, sorry, but I was gonna put this comment somewhere anyways so... here it is!
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@darthlawyer28 I think you missed my point... The point is that depending on whomever you talk to, Warlocks are OP, Hunters are OP, and/or Titans are OP. Every one of the classes/subclasses can be viewed by someone as "OP" - which in my mind means that Bungie has done its job in trying to create a relatively level playing field. Also, tactics matters - so there are some sub-classes that are better suited to counter others, etc. Also, my "if you can't beat em, join em" rant was kinda tongue in cheek - it is better to pick a class and just get good with it...lol I also agree, Destiny should be FUN above all else! This is yet another reason why all of the "nerf this" and "nerf that" crowd gets on my nerves...lol
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No reason to buff snipers. You should not be able to easily headshot someone pinging you with 9+ rounds per second. Besides, sniping in this game is already easy mode compared to bungie's last big shooter, where taking damage de-scoped you.
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There's a problem with this statement, you scoped in halo?!??! What the -blam!- were you thinking man? It's the only game with decent sniper hip fire and you ads?
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Some of the maps were really big. I definitely only used hip fire when shooting from the back of a mongoose though. Too bad we had to go back in time with Destiny though, they haven't invented vehicles yet.
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I actually find it easier to snipe in halo than this game
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Snipers should get a buff again because you don't see them in any playlist anymore, apart from larger maps for trials where people often are passive with their snipers. Obviously I'm not a fan of a hardscoping meta but I'd like to be rewarded for being able to tame my scope while under fire versus the bobblehead joke of scopes we have now when people pre-fire
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The Cozmo arse kissing at the start nearly put me off but I carried on and I'm glad I did. A very well written post with nothing but good suggestions. Well said brother......let's hope someone takes notice.
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Good thoughts. Only one issue though. If primaries forum overboard like the ones that you are describing, it would unbalance primaries and lead to a worse meta. Specials wouldn't be used then Also reduce zoom on snipers
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One thing is 1 fusion is in a good place Saladins Vigil obviously the others could use a little work. A stability buff to the others with the ability to get rifled barrel would be in lone. Make high rof fusions a 5 bolt kill when no damage drop off is present.
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Edited by FlammNation: 12/15/2016 8:11:51 AMI personally disagree with snipers needing a flinch reduction. I never felt accomplished when I would headshot someone simply because my flinch kept landing right on their head and all I had to do was pull the trigger. I was also pissed when I would actually use my primary, have someone one shot, and then get domed by luck. Not fun imo. That being said, I think the answer is to bring back the original zoom in and zoom in distance on snipers and sniper scopes. Sniping is all about getting the first, unexpected shot. If you don't get the first shot, you don't deserve to get a 1 hit kill. Edit: Also, I hate high cal on Clever Dragon but only when it comes to primary engagements. I think less flinch while using primary weapons is fine (NLB needs the sniper flinch nerf as well imo) and would make gunfights more fair and make it so that the more skilled hand wins.
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Yeah man I feel you, focus of the post was about primary flinch. A lot of people have decided to think I was focusing on sniper flinch which I was at all. Sniper flinch is whatever I can take it or leave it, I main a shotgun now. The problem lies within HCR outgunning weapons at their intended range when the HCR weapon is out of intended range. It makes primary v primary gunfights RNG which is ridiculous in an FPS.
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I agree. I've lost a ridiculous amount of primary engagements where I shot first and then HCR took over. It's stupid. I've always promoted making gunfights less RNG. Remove Bloom. Remove HCR. Remove LITC
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Agree with your opinions. I feel the people that want snipers rebuffed are the people who dominated with them during the sniping meta. I jumped on that bandwagon too when they were op. Now after losing my sniping skill its infuriating to see one take me down with little to no defense especially a NLB. I don't know why it missed the flinch nerf but it shouldn't have.
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If you're infuriated by getting killed by a sniper, then that is 100% your problem. There are countless ways to counter snipers now so it is 100% your fault if you die to them. That being said, I do think NLB needs to have it's flinch increased.
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Lol no. It's your problem you have to hear me btch and moan about it
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Seriously. You're essentially saying that since you aren't good with them they should be punished???? Hardly anyone used nlb and it's extremely difficult to master and you wsnt them to get more flinch.... It would be literally worthless if that happened. Shame on you
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It would not be worthless imo. I use NLB all the time. It takes a skilled hand. It does not, however, currently take a skilled hand. Anyone can use it and get a flinch snipe. I've used that gun since Year 1 but it just doesn't feel rewarding anymore.
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Good good good. Fusions are in a pretty good place actually. You just need stability on the roll, or a vigil. Fast rof pulses have too much range...damage falloff is near nonexistence. Scouts are pretty bad for pvp. But I do think high caliber rounds is too much. How about something else useful for counter-sniping or general effectiveness such as single point sling or a higher base target acquisition. While autos aren't terrible they're aren't great either. Mid rof and low rof is hurting the most. Maybe a larger damage buff is due for low rof. What about sidearms? And please make exotics feel sexy again.
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Agree with pretty much everything you said. Just two things. Having HCR on all legendary scout rifles would be a bad idea, and it would create a meta for camping in the back of maps. Overall they're in a good place right now. And as for Thorn's DOT being in a good place I'd have to strongly disagree. The way it is now doesn't even make the perk feel exotic. The only thing that needs to be changed in my opinion is increase the DOT to no less than 3 but no more than 4 points of damage per tick. This wouldn't make it OP like how it was in year 1 but it would make the gun still feel exotic. There's already been an added artifact which reduces DOT and thorn's damage only does 1 point per tick, which is pitiful. Other than those two things, everything else is spot on from my point of view
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Hey man, I'm all for the Thorn having a strong DoT, it would actually make that artifact relevant. If it were up to me I'd bring back Thorn two taps :D I just wanted to keep the post and potential buffs to guns like TLW and Thorn pretty watered down to not upset people that still have Y1 PTSD.
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Lol ah the ptsd of thorn from year 1. So many people are letting it affect their judgement in whether or not thorn deserves to be usable. I have no reason to use it now other than for a bit of nostalgia. I wouldn't bring back the thorn two taps haha but a middle ground between that and how it is now needs to be met. If they undid the second nerf to thorn then it would be in a perfect spot. Hand cannons in general though need bloom to not be a thing
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I agree that flinch is not a fun mechanic
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