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Destiny

Discuss all things Destiny.
12/14/2016 1:09:49 AM
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Cozmo

Thoughts on Weapon Balance

I spoke with the Sandbox team that balances the weapons in the game. This is part of a running dialogue between us where I make sure they receive your feedback. They wanted to give you some information about their process. [quote]Hey everybody! We wanted to take time to let you all know that, while we did not include a balance patch in The Dawning, we are listening to your feedback. We appreciate all of you who return to Destiny over and over again, and we respect the things you have to say about what you are seeing and feeling as you play it. As we wage wars in our playtest labs, we’re taking a lot of things into account: player data, your feedback, and our own gameplay experiences. We’ve heard the conversation about, and felt for ourselves, shotgun dominance (Yes, we see you Matador 64), but we feel strongly that our goal shouldn’t be to nerf them into the ground. Instead, we’re looking at solutions that could bring shotguns into a better state of balance with the rest of the guns in the game. In doing this, we would still want Shotguns to be effective and fun to wield. We could quickly and easily break shotguns and call it a day, but it’s important to us that we explore positive changes that can make Destiny better for everyone. Thanks for playing and being so passionate about Destiny. We all wish you the happiest holidays and look forward to you kicking our asses in SRL.[/quote] The right time and place for a deployment of Sandbox changes is something we’ll investigate further in the new year. In the meantime, our playtest labs are home to a process we’re using to explore the current state of combat in Destiny.
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  • Edited by RoboJaws21: 2/26/2017 11:58:17 PM
    Please, I am begging you, never nerf again. If some thing is over powered figure out how to buff other things, don't nerf it. Year 1 was awesome because things were good and exotics were super good, they felt exotic. PLEASE STOP NERFING. Hopscotch should 2 burst, scouts should fire faster. First curse should fire slower and two tap. Auto rifles should be reverted to year 1 strength with 5% damage

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  • Edited by Eventive: 1/26/2017 4:08:12 AM
    You guys at bungie are interesting.. I feel the nerfs are the wrong solution honestly since the release of taken king, you honestly should buff primaries to make quick work of guardians, while still requiring some skill like in year 1. (Besides Thorn being overpowered and last word back then and matador/felwinter the top choices) You guys keep nerfing shotguns when honestly the problem is the primary weapon being used to take a shotgunner/guardian out takes too long in the meta of this game. THEN you nerf that weapon people rely on so much for those type of situations and reintroduce another broken weapon or popular archtype which normally is in the fastest archtype catagory (clever dragon is a beautiful example) It is probably why alot of players are using the fastest archtype weapons and complaining about them when they lose against them. And nerfing snipers enough to the point you really need a decent scope and (roll) making other choices less viable being forced into a different playstyle you are used too. I also think it's halirous it takes the strongest and slowest archtype sniper to reward a headshot on a supercharged guardian, all snipers should be rewarded to similar skill. If it is a headshot, it is a headshot afterall and snipers do require some skill; it is probably why people have went onto shotguns more so for that reason. For christ sake the slowest archtype snipers can body shot and 1 tap with an auto rifle, it is already cheap enough with the skill gap being lower for that archtype if we take it in a skilled players hands who doesn't care about fire rate if they land a headshot or tag quick enough on you. I appreciate the fact you guys are listening to the player base, but I feel like you guys really aren't working a medium on "why" that is the problem, instead just trying to break another weapon or think that honestly is the solution to the game. I stopped playing destiny for 3-4 months and I keep trying to come back after playing almost every other day.. I can tell the meta gets worse with faster firing weapons being the better choice... Funny enough thorn in year 1 as well, was the fastest archtype handcannon and was the meta with last word and mida as an exception with the high calibur, (which high calibur indeed is a popular choice) but it was slightly more balanced since red death and other archtype weapons were more valuable competing against many primaries. Can we for once have slow firing weapons be on par with other weapons? like in year 1? Like the hard heavy hand cannons that are slowest in the archtype..it takes 3 headshots.. Well it takes 3 head shots with the faster archtype eyasluna/palindrome/devil you know etc. to take a guardian out... the same amount of headshots, but the ill will and the first curse shoots slower. Making me confused why it requires the same skill gap with a slower fire rate and majority of them already have low stats in the stability and range department for the slowest archtype. The only exception of the slowest archtype 2 shotting is a low armor hunter who has 1 armor stat and all agility and recovery.. Juggernaut shields are rediculous at this point of time as well, I like the fact it is being used more than unstoppable and as much as shoulder charge but honestly I have to use a whole clip (nearly) from an autorifle or pulse rifle while they do the glitch titan skate with a twilight garrison, going faster than usual flying around with the shield being active. It's a good strategy, but the tactic is obvious enough that it seems it is near (impossible) to fully take out a titan confidently a mile away. Then we have the lag problems still existing saying it has improved, I mean I can show you a video of a guardian teleporting in front of me when he was literally downstairs and had to jump a platform before they could reach me. It just seems instead of you guys actually solving a problem it just seems to become a big problem of nerfing it, I like that tactic you guys have came up with the past few years of me playing this game. I just feel like you guys should honestly find a medium, destiny 2 is in the works like you guys said. I hope that honestly the balance is more of a way to work a medium on "all" weapon standards as opposed to shotguns taking a bigger nerf or even matador all together. Shotguns while they are the higher ground, do take risk/reward skill and timing to still be rewarded properly. Anyone in the right mind and a skilled player will not say no to that. It just seems pointless at this point to keep nerfing everything that is trying to counter shotguns all together, to the ground. Why not also make other weapon archtypes more popular for people to use? I'd love to use a fast firing sniper if I could headshot a supercharged guardian, or even a slow firing handcannon to have more options to choose from etc. I just see similar/the same loadouts every time that it makes me feel like there is less variety in the weapon department to choose from competitively. I will admit though on a positive note, the variety of armor to choose from since the new rise of iron update is awesome; and the PVE side of things I am quite satisfied with. I just feel like this is a suggestion, whether you guys read it or not is your choice, but ultimately I am not going unheard with my thoughts on this game (So far)

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  • Edited by OPG Dolphin: 1/24/2017 6:44:39 PM
    No long intro just my thoughts: [b]Hand Cannons[/b] - Remove bloom (did't work well in Halo Reach either) - HCs have (arguably) the largest skill gap in the game make the the kills feel rewarding. - Make the Exotics feel as there are named. Removing bloom will do it for TLW, Boost base range for Hawkmoon, Give Thorn more accuracy and and bring the DoT to where it will kill with "Head-Body-Body" shots so it will shoot on par with the HCs used. [b]Pulses[/b] - Remove HCRs or at least from the Hawksaw and Clever Dragon families. - Use the Pulse damage layout from TTK, that was balanced until you could put max stability on the Red Death family. So minus Red Death lower the base stability making it harder to hit that 2 burst kill. [b]ARs[/b] - Bring back Y1 ARs, or something close. Sorry I don't have more on these I don't use them much. [b]Scouts[/b] - These are in a great place right now, leave them where they are. [b]Snipers[/b] - Remove the ADS flinch from the last patch. - remove the range stat, I don't think a sniper should have a range limit. Replace it with a Accuracy stat like most other games have. [b]Shotguns[/b] - Don't nerf them into the ground, but make it harder to get a kill. The high impact ones should have lower range and remove range finder from them. - Other families could use a range buff. [b]Fusions[/b] - Make the projectiles shoot tighter together and all at once. - Fix the glitch where the projectiles randomly disappear when you die making a trade impossible. - Give them a faster ready time, you almost need Quick Draw to use them right now. - A stability buff would also be helpful [b]Side Arms[/b] - These feel fine right now, there might be a balance problem with the changes I have stated above though. In that case lower the Damage a little, some of them feel like LMGs are hitting you. I also think that they should not out gun HCs, which right now they do. [b]Overall Changes[/b] - Lower the flinch on Primaries A LOT. Be able to flinch someone out of hitting their target makes getting a kill more RNG and less Skill. - Lower flinch on secondaries a little. In my opinion Sub Classes need to be looked at as well but this is just about weapons. [b][/b]

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    • At least they're not nerfing me!

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    • Why you nerf telesto

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    • This by far has to be the biggest -blam!- up they've ever made. I refuse to play trials so long as a gun that one shots anywhere on the body across the map is available to everyone with no skill

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    • Shotguns and clever dragon need to be put in the grave, close the coffin, and never dig them up

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      • In short, Bungie, shotguns are overly dominant largely because of the maps available in the current meta. Shotguns should be lethal at close range but the way to mitigate their effectiveness is the create maps that are not heavily cornered, as tight, etc. allowing other weapons to counter shotgun warriors on their way in. Sure have some shotgun friendly maps but also have some that are not - perhaps the current mix of map design is the problem? IMHO - This Matador 64 problem is not really a problem with shotgun, but the environment to which they can flourish - i.e. the maps...

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        • Edited by SurprizeMagician: 1/20/2017 1:29:33 AM
          I hate to curse - but you guys suck. And have sucked forever. I suspect you will still suck. , PLEASE can you guys please go for vacations and dont return? Great. see ya never - Stop changing things every time somebody whines about something. STOP PLEASE. A game where the rules keep changing is a joke.

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          • Edited by Broblerone: 1/14/2017 7:01:08 PM
            Been playing some more, and refined my thoughts a bit better. [b]PRIMARIES[/b] - Bring flinch against primaries down a bit. - Nerf HCR. Don't just remove it as a perk on certain weapons; reduce its effectiveness on higher rate weapons (with an overall reduce in effectiveness overall, but on faster-firing weapons in particular) - With that in mind, add it back to MIDA, but in its new, less-effective mode. - Fine-tune damage fall-off on Handcannons and remove bloom. It's possible to keep them in the niche of close-range fighting without making them hit-or-miss weapons. - low-RoF AR's need some love; maybe a reduce damage fall-off on those guns to give them a better range compared to faster firings, to better define their niche. - AR's in general need a slight damage boost - meanwhile, Pulse Rifles need a slight range nerf. Right now it breaches into Scout Rifle ranges. [b]SPECIALS[/b] - Range nerf on Matador64 SPECIFICALLY. - Increase the amount of precision damage needed for a one-shot Shotty kill [spoiler]Regardless of what others are going to say, Shotties are still a problem. Compared to other Special Weapons that are capable of a one-shot kill, Snipers require a headshot, Fusions require a set number of bolts to land, Chaperone needs to land a headshot, and... Matador? Achieve an arbitrary distance from the opposing player. Buffing primaries alone is going to raise the overall time-to-kill on everything, and that's BAD for the game, believe it or not, as we get closer to those engagements where engagements... aren't engagements; it becomes a greater matter of who-sees-who-first and it takes the fun out of the game. Shotguns shouldn't be nerfed to the ground, but there's an obvious divide in which archetypes are used over which are not. High Impact Shotties absolutely dominate shotgun use in the Crucible, to the point that seeing something that fires even remotely faster is such as rarity that I can only respect those players for doing something different. Making the one-shot kill on a High Impact shotty would demand a more calculated/careful use of the shotgun to make the most of it; actual practice beyond just knowing to slap after using it. It's no fun dying to some dude while at full health just because you were way to close, even a distance as stupid as the Mapador, and something needs to be done about that.[/spoiler] [b]HEAVIES[/b] - No real complaints; although maybe a slight reduction on how much ammo a machine gun gets per brick in PvP. [spoiler] [b]EXOTIC WEAPONS[/b] - Reduce screen-shake when using Hardlight. This gun is one of the coolest weapons in Destiny, and it sucks that its use is hindered greatly by the earthquakes it causes on your TV whenever you fire it. - Some buffs on Touch of Malice. It'd be cool if that gun wasn't just useful for one activity and one boss fight in that activity only. - Some buffs on the Khvostov, particularly its different firing modes. This is a very interesting gun, but it'd be cool if the firing modes were more useful beyond flavor and being there just to look pretty. - Suros Regime is pretty bad right now; the focus-fire perk needs to not bring down your DPS, but rather keep it consistent with what it was before you zoomed in. - Dreg's Promise is kind of a joke still. Come on, Bungie. - Super Good Advice could use a slight stability boost to increase its consistency in use. [b]EXOTIC ARMOR[/b] I can only really speak for Hunter exotics out of experience here, so don't take this is as the only changes that I think should be done, but just what I know from my experience. - Shinobu's Vow is just a little too good, man. - Don't Touch Me needs to do more than it does. In its current state, it's only useful in some very, very, very niche situation and needs to add more to its toolbox than it has. - the ATS/8 ARACHNID is pretty much useless. Maybe add something like a boost to Golden Gun length with each kill as well; something to convince a Hunter to actually use this. - Knucklehead Radar. Talk about something made obsolete by an Artifact that does its job better. Something needs to be added to really differentiate this from that artifact; something to set it apart and convince a Hunter to run this over that if they want. - Radiant Dance Machines are all at once cool and disappointing. The movement speed boost is so negligible that even in the game mode where it makes a difference (PVP) it still doesn't. Something should be added to better increase its utility for boosting the mobile Hunter, either a base increase to overall agility (a significant one), or a boost to sprint speed, or something. [/spoiler] [spoiler] [b]HUNTERS[/b] - Hunter grenades, save Incendiary and Skips, are pretty, pretty bad. Like, really bad. Nightstalkers have almost nothing good in their toolbox, and the fact that you need to use your Smokebombs to make any of these grenades actually good is just a bad sign overall. The Wombo is pretty good, but their grenades are just bad on their own. - The Gravity Bow's use is still painfully inconsistent. Landing even a direct hit on a super such as the Arkblade or the Stormtrance doesn't do anything to save you; they're still able to get the hit(s) in to kill you, and way too often the Gravity Bow just becomes the Sacrificial Lamb to save the team but you're still going to get killed. The tether/tether effect should apply almost instantly once it impacts on a surface, and it should pulled Arkblades out of their current lunch instead of letting them get that last hit in. [b]TITANS[/b] - No real complaints; just that Juggernaut Shield is some pretty hot BS for being able to tank absolutely anything. [b]WARLOCKS[/b] - Stormtrance is still ridiculous for what it does in PvP, being basically a better overall Arkblade. - The frickin' ranged melee is ridiculous. Having the added bonus of their extra shield on hit along with how much damage it does is just silly overall. Yeah, this is probably salt overall, but it still feels really cheap to die to >:/ [/spoiler]

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          • Let me start by saying thank you Cozmo for a little bit of transparency, it's nice to see that from Bungie these days. Hopefully you take what's being said on these forums into consideration and looking past the one-sided "Buff this because it's my favorite, and nerf this because it kills me too much" arguments. I've been playing this game hardcore since May 2015 and I've seen the greatest times in the Crucible come and go. I've also been there when, in my opinion, things were worse than they are now (let's not forget about the Universal Remote and the Doctrine metas). I know nothing about coding or development but I can at least give feedback on what me and many others think would improve the overall enjoyment in the Crucible. I'd like to begin by saying that [i]I do not think shotguns need a nerf at all[/i], and this is coming from a two year sniper main. It's easy to put all the blame on something in the crucible when it's visibly the strongest thing on the market. Shotguns themselves are not over-powered though, [i]the problem lies within primary weapons not being able to kill someone running at you in straight line fast enough[/i]. Destiny player movement is incredibly unique, with many movement altering abilities and exotics. It's easy to close the gap between you and another player when their primary weapon does very little damage to stop you. Instead of immediately looking at shotguns as the source of the problem, try to look at the bigger picture and think, why can't I stop this guy from running at me? In Year 1 the Last Word was the perfect shotgun counter, in the middle of TTK the Doctrine would mow down any shotgun warrior. Now we have nothing to consistently stop someone from running straight at us. This was made worse by the absolute destruction of sniper rifles in the last weapon update. More people are inclined to use shotguns because snipers are not as effective. I do understand people's frustration, but nerfing another weapon type is not the way to go about it. [i] So what should we do? [/i] I believe that an overall primary weapon buff would be the most effective way of making crucible interesting and satisfying again. [b]Hand Cannons[/b] - [i]Remove bloom from hand cannons completely[/i], damage drop-off where it's at is enough of a balancing factor. Hand cannons take skill to use, and a three tap should be rewarded. - Removing bloom would also eliminate the absolute necessity for rifled barrel, as hand cannon range is directly associated with the accuracy stat - Please look at the Thorn, the Last Word, and Hawkmoon. [i]These weapons are no longer exotic feeling[/i], as they have been nerfed countless times. A weapon that is exotic should feel exotic, not just look the part. Thorn DoT is in a good place, but the accuracy this gun has is pitiful, the Last Word is lucky to hit 3 out of its 8 bullets, and the Hawkmoon... well one day hopefully this thing will hit its mark again. [b]Pulse Rifles[/b] - Revert Hawksaw archtype Pulse Rifle damage back to how it was at the release of Taken King - Revert low RoF Pulse Rifle damage back to how it was at the end of House of Wolves, there isn't even a reason to use low RoF Pulse Rifles anymore in their current state - [i]Remove HCR from high RoF Pulse Rifles[/i], they should not be out gunning Scouts at range due to a broken perk. [i]Flinch makes primary gunfights RNG[/i], which should not determine the winner and the loser. - Again, I can't think of any of the exotic Pulse Rifles being stronger than their legendary counterparts. [b]Auto Rifles[/b] - It's hard for me to speak on Auto Rifles because I have never used them, but an overall Damage buff seems favored by most. Not any of that .04% mess either. I'm talking large percentage buffs! [b]Scout Rifles[/b] - Scouts seem to be in a good place, it might be smart to put High Caliber rounds on all of them intrinsically though, as no body uses legendary Scout Rifles for anything PvP related it seems. [i]Now onto special weapons! [/i] Special weapons themselves feel wonky these days. While shotguns seem to dominate the crucible, they too at times have their fallbacks. Remember though, [u]shotguns are not the problem[/u]. [b]Sniper Rifles[/b] - I believe that an overall reduction in flinch would be an incredibly solid buff to sniper rifles. It's almost ridiculous the amount your reticle bobs all over the place when your being gunned at by a high-caliber pulse rifle. In my opinion, [i]flinch makes this game not fun[/i], and is a mechanic that should be heavily adjusted. - A reduction in body shot damage, with increased headshot damage on mid high impact snipers would be lovely, please reward us for sniping a storm caller mid Ionic Blink. [b]Shotguns[/b] - Shotguns right now feel fine, especially with the introduction of the Matador, I find my shotgun blanking much less than before. - In air accuracy on shotguns, as well as on ground accuracy could have a consistency buff? If that's even a thing. I hate it when I'm in the proper range and all of the sudden my shotgun shoots a health pack at my enemy. - Why does my shotgun seem to jam when I equip it some time? I'll pull the trigger and it won't shoot. Maybe a glitch? Or a balancing factor. /shrug [b]Fusion Rifles[/b] - I've never been one to use Fusion Rifles, but when I do, I can't kill a damn thing. - Fusion Rifle handling seems incredibly low, and they are only viable with the perk hot-swap - Fusion Rifle bolt accuracy could be buffed a bit. - Again not my strong suit, so my opinion on them should be taken lightly. This is just a view on a potential weapon balance. There's no thoughts on subclass changes here. If a post comes up asking for those, I'll express my ideas there. I'd like to add that I am by no means an amazing player who is just trying to get my way and pubstomp. I'm always looking out for the casual player, as well as the dude that likes to bring his No Land Beyond and favorite Fusion Rifle into a Control match and still do well with them. Hopefully this post can bring attention to what me and many of my friends feel like the problem with the Crucible is. If anyone has questions or feedback to share on my ideas, I would love to hear them. [b]tl;dr[/b] - [u]Shotguns are not the problem[/u]. - Shotguns seem like the problem because primaries are too weak to stop them. - [u]Buff primaries[/u] (remove bloom, increase AR damage, increase low RoF Pulse Damage). - Remove HCR from Pulse Rifles (Flinch is not a fun mechanic). - Make sniping great again.

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            • 1. Buff armor piercing rounds and anything that says "penetrate" to allow it to go through juggernaut shield. 2. Change stickies (fusions, flux and magnetic) to work like hunter smoke bombs. 3. Either change suppressor grenade or tether. A grenade CANNOT be better than a super. 4. Change skorri. I WILL NOT allow camping to be condoned.

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              • But when?? Destiny 2??

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              • for the love of god please nerf the Clever Dragon!!!!!!!

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                • Your weapon system is inaccurate. I compared the clever dragon and the blind perdition(adept) to the Monte Carlo for pvp. The Monte Carlo has been my favorite since y1. When I did this it shows Monte Carlo has more fire rate, more impact, more range, even more reload speed then the clever dragon. But the clever dragon does more damage and does more in range. Hmmm makes no sense. Compare Monte to blind perdition. Monte has higher fire rate, tiny bit more impact a little bit less stability but more range. But again blind perdition does more damage. I've done up to 25 damage with the blind and 23 with the clever dragon. Monte does 20. Has more impact and range then both of them. I'm just using this as an example because your damn weapon system doesn't make sense. Why does a last word that has less range then a matador but shoots further? And honestly It's not the secondary weapons that need fixing it definitely is the primary. You have handcannons that have more range then scout rifles.??? Really? You do another nerf and I'm done. Just fix what's broken. If people complain cause they get killed with shot guns up close. Then they're stupid. If they complain cause they get sniped in the head. They have no complaint. Just fix it.

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                  • Make auto rifles like year 1 launch. Make hand cannons like the Thorn /Last Word meta Make pulse rifles good like the Red Death days. Give MIDA high cal rounds again Give machine guns their ammo back Bring back original Field Scout perk. Make special ammo less available, like how heavy ammo drops-miss it you loose it; promoting team play This should solve most if not all?

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                    • I shouldn't get killed if I take a shotgun blast in the leg. A single shotgun blast anywhere on the body kills you, which is just ridiculous. Meanwhile I can unload 4 handgun shots in someone's chest point blank and they continue to charge full stem. A close range hand cannon blast should stagger an opponent, be more powerful than it currently is and a shotgun blast to an extremity should do damage but not be an automatic kill. Also head and torso shots should do more damage for autorifles, pulse rifles and sidearms.

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                      • For the love of everything good, change trials to skirmish or salvage so people stop hiding at the back of the map I don't want to play 10+ minutes trials games

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                        • Everyone wants primaries buffed. Do you notice barely anyone wants weapons nerffed

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                        • I reckon hate will be incoming for this Vex mythoclast deserves to be op Buff it?

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                          • We complain a lot in destiny but I've tried playing battlefield and overwatch. It doesn't come close to destiny's gun play. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=FMTbbXv6yNQ

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                            • The problem here is very simple, Guardians are better at complaining than they are at fighting.

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                              • What do we do in a different meta though, like someone who attacks you with a pointed stick? [spoiler]🍪 if you guess the reference[/spoiler]

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                                • Edited by JetEyeKnight: 1/2/2017 9:34:38 PM
                                  Hand cannons should not need rifled barrel to be useable. As it is now, if they don't have rifled barrel they are an insta-dismantle. Auto rifles of every type need a buff. Increase weapon swap speed. Takes too long to switch to your shotgun so there is no incentive to use a primary. You're better off using shotgun only.

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                                  • Edited by ooGREYFOXXoo: 1/3/2017 2:52:51 PM
                                    You're just blowing smoke up our asses. Stop lying to us. Fix things or stop making empty promises. Simple as that. If bungie respected our opinions they would actually do something. Pvp is the worst it's ever been. I am a day one player and I would rather get a lobotomy than play one horrible unbalanced lagfest match of crucible. Is that honest enough for you. Fix yo shit.

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                                  • Need to do something . its becoming very stale and quite frankly not fun to play. At first ibdidnt think that high cal on a pulse rifle was that bad. But if you engage with a person 1v1 that has high cal on their pulse. You either better run away or prey they miss. Also the flinch overall on everything is way to high. Snipers are useless in 6s imo. And handcannons need better registration even if you say its the range that causes ghost bullets. Then give handcannons more range but add damage fall off and better registration. Something needs done with stormcaller mellee range also. Either buff titan and hunter mellee range or figure something out

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