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originally posted in: Thoughts on Weapon Balance
12/14/2016 5:33:02 AM
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Let me start by saying thank you Cozmo for a little bit of transparency, it's nice to see that from Bungie these days. Hopefully you take what's being said on these forums into consideration and looking past the one-sided "Buff this because it's my favorite, and nerf this because it kills me too much" arguments. I've been playing this game hardcore since May 2015 and I've seen the greatest times in the Crucible come and go. I've also been there when, in my opinion, things were worse than they are now (let's not forget about the Universal Remote and the Doctrine metas). I know nothing about coding or development but I can at least give feedback on what me and many others think would improve the overall enjoyment in the Crucible. I'd like to begin by saying that [i]I do not think shotguns need a nerf at all[/i], and this is coming from a two year sniper main. It's easy to put all the blame on something in the crucible when it's visibly the strongest thing on the market. Shotguns themselves are not over-powered though, [i]the problem lies within primary weapons not being able to kill someone running at you in straight line fast enough[/i]. Destiny player movement is incredibly unique, with many movement altering abilities and exotics. It's easy to close the gap between you and another player when their primary weapon does very little damage to stop you. Instead of immediately looking at shotguns as the source of the problem, try to look at the bigger picture and think, why can't I stop this guy from running at me? In Year 1 the Last Word was the perfect shotgun counter, in the middle of TTK the Doctrine would mow down any shotgun warrior. Now we have nothing to consistently stop someone from running straight at us. This was made worse by the absolute destruction of sniper rifles in the last weapon update. More people are inclined to use shotguns because snipers are not as effective. I do understand people's frustration, but nerfing another weapon type is not the way to go about it. [i] So what should we do? [/i] I believe that an overall primary weapon buff would be the most effective way of making crucible interesting and satisfying again. [b]Hand Cannons[/b] - [i]Remove bloom from hand cannons completely[/i], damage drop-off where it's at is enough of a balancing factor. Hand cannons take skill to use, and a three tap should be rewarded. - Removing bloom would also eliminate the absolute necessity for rifled barrel, as hand cannon range is directly associated with the accuracy stat - Please look at the Thorn, the Last Word, and Hawkmoon. [i]These weapons are no longer exotic feeling[/i], as they have been nerfed countless times. A weapon that is exotic should feel exotic, not just look the part. Thorn DoT is in a good place, but the accuracy this gun has is pitiful, the Last Word is lucky to hit 3 out of its 8 bullets, and the Hawkmoon... well one day hopefully this thing will hit its mark again. [b]Pulse Rifles[/b] - Revert Hawksaw archtype Pulse Rifle damage back to how it was at the release of Taken King - Revert low RoF Pulse Rifle damage back to how it was at the end of House of Wolves, there isn't even a reason to use low RoF Pulse Rifles anymore in their current state - [i]Remove HCR from high RoF Pulse Rifles[/i], they should not be out gunning Scouts at range due to a broken perk. [i]Flinch makes primary gunfights RNG[/i], which should not determine the winner and the loser. - Again, I can't think of any of the exotic Pulse Rifles being stronger than their legendary counterparts. [b]Auto Rifles[/b] - It's hard for me to speak on Auto Rifles because I have never used them, but an overall Damage buff seems favored by most. Not any of that .04% mess either. I'm talking large percentage buffs! [b]Scout Rifles[/b] - Scouts seem to be in a good place, it might be smart to put High Caliber rounds on all of them intrinsically though, as no body uses legendary Scout Rifles for anything PvP related it seems. [i]Now onto special weapons! [/i] Special weapons themselves feel wonky these days. While shotguns seem to dominate the crucible, they too at times have their fallbacks. Remember though, [u]shotguns are not the problem[/u]. [b]Sniper Rifles[/b] - I believe that an overall reduction in flinch would be an incredibly solid buff to sniper rifles. It's almost ridiculous the amount your reticle bobs all over the place when your being gunned at by a high-caliber pulse rifle. In my opinion, [i]flinch makes this game not fun[/i], and is a mechanic that should be heavily adjusted. - A reduction in body shot damage, with increased headshot damage on mid high impact snipers would be lovely, please reward us for sniping a storm caller mid Ionic Blink. [b]Shotguns[/b] - Shotguns right now feel fine, especially with the introduction of the Matador, I find my shotgun blanking much less than before. - In air accuracy on shotguns, as well as on ground accuracy could have a consistency buff? If that's even a thing. I hate it when I'm in the proper range and all of the sudden my shotgun shoots a health pack at my enemy. - Why does my shotgun seem to jam when I equip it some time? I'll pull the trigger and it won't shoot. Maybe a glitch? Or a balancing factor. /shrug [b]Fusion Rifles[/b] - I've never been one to use Fusion Rifles, but when I do, I can't kill a damn thing. - Fusion Rifle handling seems incredibly low, and they are only viable with the perk hot-swap - Fusion Rifle bolt accuracy could be buffed a bit. - Again not my strong suit, so my opinion on them should be taken lightly. This is just a view on a potential weapon balance. There's no thoughts on subclass changes here. If a post comes up asking for those, I'll express my ideas there. I'd like to add that I am by no means an amazing player who is just trying to get my way and pubstomp. I'm always looking out for the casual player, as well as the dude that likes to bring his No Land Beyond and favorite Fusion Rifle into a Control match and still do well with them. Hopefully this post can bring attention to what me and many of my friends feel like the problem with the Crucible is. If anyone has questions or feedback to share on my ideas, I would love to hear them. [b]tl;dr[/b] - [u]Shotguns are not the problem[/u]. - Shotguns seem like the problem because primaries are too weak to stop them. - [u]Buff primaries[/u] (remove bloom, increase AR damage, increase low RoF Pulse Damage). - Remove HCR from Pulse Rifles (Flinch is not a fun mechanic). - Make sniping great again.
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  • Wipe your nose, u got a little poop on there.

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  • This, please bungie. I'm right at that point where PvP is all I do and I don't even like playing the game anymore. I'm tolerating campers in cod over this game right now.

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  • First of all I cannot take this seriously past the line The Last Word doesn't feel exotic. You're ridiculous for that. And you discredited your entire argument. The Last Word has been the most dominating weapon, consistently going on 3 years now. I can't wait until Destiny 2. A game where that gun doesn't exist.

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  • And the fact most your characters run shotguns discredits you

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  • By your opinion

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  • Its the same universe the gun will exist hopefully. You just sound butthurt like most the children on the forums

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  • It's only powerful in close range. Outside of that almost every other gun outclassed it dude

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  • Time to kill increase equals decrease in time to fun.

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  • No more cross map low impact pulse rifles. Aim at there head and snipe them. You shouldn't be able to eat lead in the face and still snipe. Sniper archetypes are fine as is. If you want to snipe out max armor super use a max impact sniper nuff said. Medium and high impact autos need a buff.

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  • No more cross map low impact pulse rifles. Aim at there head and snipe them. You shouldn't be able to eat lead in the face and still snipe. Sniper archetypes are fine as is. If you want to snipe out max armor super use a max impact sniper nuff said. Medium and high impact autos need a buff.

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  • I do think all of these would be great.

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  • Good post and is similar to my views. I personally don't think that shotguns need nerfing and I understand Bungie's view to basically give everyone a Matador - it levels the playing field somewhat, but primaries need to be a bit stronger overall and the maps tend to favor close quarters combat so maybe a bit more variety in map design would also help. To me, your primary weapon should be just that, your primary weapon of choice. Special weapons are for special situations, CQC, long range snipes, panic situations (Plan C!) - buffing primaries a bit would move the balance of kills away from special weapons a little and that would be good I think. I would also like to see exotics feel exotic again and this is very hard to do from a design perspective. Give exotics a perk that gives them a slight advantage in certain situations but doesn't make them OP. Tough to do. I think Plan C is a good example. It can stop a rushing shotgunner if the perk activates and is a good fusion but not so OP that you use it all the time. It's situational. Anyway, good post and here's hoping for minor tweaks to the PVP sandbox in the near future.

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  • Will these .001% buff changes go in to effect before 2018?

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  • Edited by BraddyBo: 12/17/2016 6:08:59 AM
    I agree on everything u said, i have a couple things to add though. #1 Shotguns/snipers should get shot handling nerf reverted #2 Unflinching should get huge buff along with a tiny overall sniper flinch buff (instead of big buff to core flinch) #3 Huge nerf to sniper body shot damage and slight headshot damage increase

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  • Buff fusion rifles!!!

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  • I dont know about the damage drop off. Its already difficult enough to control certain hand cannons and their recoil, like the first curse, thorn, hawkmoon, last word, oh speaking of last word, the damage drop off would make it a complete pea shooter. Not fun.

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  • Well I know this isn't a weapon, but can you fix the problem with The memory of Radegast? Even with the artifact equipped, I still don't get more ammo for my sword. But honestly, I think Swords need a buff in PvP to increase the use of them.

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  • Nerf campers... [spoiler]snipers[/spoiler]

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  • Don't ask to remove HCR from PR's and say it make primary engagements RNG based, but turn around and say HCR should be intrinsic on scouts. That is extremely contradictive and is one of the main reasons why we're in the mess we're in now.

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  • It is broken on pulses. Each round fired has HCR on it, making the flinch factor ridiculous. Scouts need something slight to make them better, and HCR would do that, as they are semi auto weapons

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  • Okay, that's cool. I guess you don't understand the contradiction. Yes, scouts should have HCR as intrinsic, I'm an avid scout user and would love that. However, you can't remove it from one thing and put in on another. That's why we keep having such a shitty balance in this game. You realize that, correct ?

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  • Can you break this post into different episodes? I can't read this all at once.

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  • Why do people want Sniper Rifles to be able to tank through flinch? Seriously.

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  • It's not that, it's that it is near impossible to snipe through flinch, even when that sniper is extremely experienced

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  • Edited by Erijian: 12/17/2016 8:44:52 PM
    Good? You shouldn't be trying to do that in the first place. Sniper Rifles should be used for picking off people who don't know you're there or for those skilled enough to get the pick before taking damage, not for aggressive play. Leave that to Shotguns.

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