Define "extreme". Because the reality is that everyone thinks that "extreme" applies to someone else.

I mean extreme cases in which it gets out of hand, where the child is left with scarring and bruises. A little whoop on the ass isn't going to hurt anybody, but if you proceed to beat the child with anything really, then that is going too far.

[quote]Sorry bout that, but that's your parents. There are extreme cases like that, more often than we'd like to say, but that doesn't apply to everyone. I don't really care if it becomes a legal thing, but parenting is up to the person. Not the law. [spoiler]except when it is[/spoiler][/quote] I didn't say anything about my parents beating me? What? I'm just saying that there are parents that take it out of control and have actual weapons. How is this not battery or assault? But to elaborate even further a single spank [i]with an explanation [/i]has proven effective in psychology and behavioral modification. What hasn't, is just spanking. How does a crying baby throwing food understand "oh wow, I'm being spanked for this poor behavior." As studies have shown, the baby doesn't understand. I want to say the law is there to prevent child abuse, not to demand how parents discipline their child, but there is a thin line between positive punishment and abuse.

[quote][quote]Sorry bout that, but that's your parents. There are extreme cases like that, more often than we'd like to say, but that doesn't apply to everyone. I don't really care if it becomes a legal thing, but parenting is up to the person. Not the law. [spoiler]except when it is[/spoiler][/quote] I didn't say anything about my parents beating me? What? I'm just saying that there are parents that take it out of control and have actual weapons. How is this not battery or assault? But to elaborate even further a single spank [i]with an explanation [/i]has proven effective in psychology and behavioral modification. What hasn't, is just spanking. How does a crying baby throwing food understand "oh wow, I'm being spanked for this poor behavior." As studies have shown, the baby doesn't understand. I want to say the law is there to prevent child abuse, not to demand how parents discipline their child, but there is a thin line between positive punishment and abuse.[/quote] Ah, mistook "many parents" for "my parents." Apologies. But as for what you said, I agree that spanking is pretty much useless in younger agesb, especially infants, and should be taken no further by using actual weapons. I do however believe that is can be used in older ages, because kids will learn, "I don't like being spanked, and doing this got me spanked, so I won't do it." It shouldn't be used excessively as a fear factor, nor should it be used in bits of rage and frustration. I have to say that the furthest a parent should go is the wooden paddle/stick, or maybe the belt in extreme cases. If you go further than that, that is where you overstep the line you speak of.

Idk about older ages either. Kids in older ages will try and prevent the spanking by outrunning, laughing at pain, locking themselves in a room, etc. Then you have children who manipulate the spanking. If they know you regret it, they'll hold it against you, quit eating until you apologize and buy something, etc. Children are smart, and they'll only get smarter. That's why it's often ineffective if you don't explain to them what they did wrong was wrong and reinforce it. A single hit with an explanation does work, but multiple spankings with no explanation, does not. Though I also don't think using a weapon is necessary at all either. Increasing the intensity is only going to create fear and depression. They only stop the behavior to avoid the spanking. When the spanking no longer follows up the behavior, it will continue, cause no one is gonna spank a 16 year old and they weren't really taught that their behavior was wrong, just if they did it they got hit. So weapons don't even help either. Plus you need to reflect on this. If you did something bad would you rather get hit, or have it explained to you what you did wrong and then receive help on fixing or bettering yourself. What sounds better in both the short and long run. How spanking is even considered great for child care and often recommended to others is beyond me. It might just be no one sees that spanking causes issues besides "well he stopped right now so that's all that matters." But really, it's my opinion. I can't dictate how to raise your child, but i can recommend methods that may work. I've never seen physical punishment work, nor other borderline abuse methods work, so I won't use them. Just all I say is, if you're gonna spank a child, remind yourself to talk to them. Not only will it build a better relationship between you and your child, it'll help their future social skills and more.

[quote]Idk about older ages either. Kids in older ages will try and prevent the spanking by outrunning, laughing at pain, locking themselves in a room, etc. Then you have children who manipulate the spanking. If they know you regret it, they'll hold it against you, quit eating until you apologize and buy something, etc.[/quote] Then the parents should not give in. If the kid won't eat, fine. Hunger strikes never worked in my house. Also, if the kid is laughing, you either are not spanking hard enough, or your child is crazy AF. [quote]Children are smart, and they'll only get smarter. That's why it's often ineffective if you don't explain to them what they did wrong was wrong and reinforce it. A single hit with an explanation does work, but multiple spankings with no explanation, does not.[/quote] Agreed and this was done in my house and will be done with my kids. [quote]Though I also don't think using a weapon is necessary at all either. Increasing the intensity is only going to create fear and depression. They only stop the behavior to avoid the spanking. When the spanking no longer follows up the behavior, it will continue, cause no one is gonna spank a 16 year old and they weren't really taught that their behavior was wrong, just if they did it they got hit. So weapons don't even help either.[/quote] Fear comes in many forms. I had a respectful fear of my parents. This is not to say that I was scared of them. To the contrary, we have a very good relationship. The only time I was ever really afraid is when I had done something REALLY wrong. The positive experience with my parents vs the negative experience taught me from a young age that if I do right, all is well. If I do wrong, I will experience negative consequences, and that is really what it is all about. [quote]Plus you need to reflect on this. If you did something bad would you rather get hit, or have it explained to you what you did wrong and then receive help on fixing or bettering yourself. What sounds better in both the short and long run. How spanking is even considered great for child care and often recommended to others is beyond me. It might just be no one sees that spanking causes issues besides "well he stopped right now so that's all that matters."[/quote] My parents used a combination of this. They always explained to me why certain actions were wrong. Thing is, that does not always work. Kids need to learn that wrong actions have negative consequences that can sometimes cause pain to others as well as themselves. Sometimes that message does not get across until they experience it. [quote]But really, it's my opinion. I can't dictate how to raise your child, but i can recommend methods that may work. I've never seen physical punishment work, nor other borderline abuse methods work, so I won't use them. Just all I say is, if you're gonna spank a child, remind yourself to talk to them. Not only will it build a better relationship between you and your child, it'll help their future social skills and more.[/quote] You have probably never seen them used correctly. Admittedly, there are parents out there who take it way too far, but in all likelihood, they were shit parents to begin with. Anyway, I do understand what you are saying and I respect your opinion. Physical punishment can easily get out of hand if it is not applied correctly and with great care. It was always a last resort in my house growing up and it will continue to be.

[quote]Then the parents should not give in. If the kid won't eat, fine. Hunger strikes never worked in my house. Also, if the kid is laughing, you either are not spanking hard enough, or your child is crazy AF. [/quote] That's not easy to do, honesty. Empathy really screws us over, a child often doesn't think death or a disease will occur if they don't eat for a long time. They know their stomach hurts and they feel tired. As an adult, you know what consequences can occur if a child doesn't eat. You also know if the kid goes anywhere and tells people they aren't eating, the story can be changed around to make CPS knock on your door in the next few days. Yet we could go on and on and on about this subject since there's children who will eat anyway, children who are stubborn as hell, parents who will go along with it as a joke, yaddah yaddah yaddah. If it didn't work in your house, good I guess but that doesn't justify spanking. As for laughing, kids being kids will spread rumors like hell. Often times kids tell each other "if you do _____ you won't feel pain." Which can be debated since laughing does produce endorphins, and endorphins do make pain hurt less. Call them psychotic as a joke but it's actually pretty good method to avoiding pain. Hell, even kids cover their butt to avoid the pain. [quote]Fear comes in many forms. I had a respectful fear of my parents. This is not to say that I was scared of them. To the contrary, we have a very good relationship. The only time I was ever really afraid is when I had done something REALLY wrong. The positive experience with my parents vs the negative experience taught me from a young age that if I do right, all is well. If I do wrong, I will experience negative consequences, and that is really what it is all about.[/quote] You see, as a child freshly out the womb who's only ability to learn is from those around it. You shouldn't fear anything if you do something wrong. It really didn't teach you right from wrong. It taught, in your own words, "if I do right, all is well." But what is right without being taught and explained why. Let's use this example: [quote]Johnny drops food on the floor. Johnny proceeds to pick it up and eat it. His mother then spanks him and says "no" while pointing a finger at him.[/quote] As adults we know about bacteria, the 5 second rule, and reasons as why you might not eat something off the floor. This is easy to understand. As for young Johnny, this taught Johnny nothing. Johnny doesn't know why this happened. Johnny doesn't know why he's in trouble for cleaning up after himself. Johnny doesn't know what's so bad about eating food off the floor. Johnny probably cries now as his hand hurts and he's confused. Now Johnny's mom has to deal with making dinner and a crying a child. Johnny would've faired better if Johnny was told why it was wrong instead of being slapped in this situation. We could also debate multiple situations in this, and a spank can be valid in many of the situations, but really, you shouldn't fear anything when you're in trouble and you shouldn't just spank and leave it at that. Often times this just leads to "if I don't get caught", lying, and hiding or not telling the truth to avoid punishment. [quote]My parents used a combination of this. They always explained to me why certain actions were wrong. Thing is, that does not always work. Kids need to learn that wrong actions have negative consequences that can sometimes cause pain to others as well as themselves. Sometimes that message does not get across until they experience it.[/quote] But both I and psychology will say that spanking without explanation doesn't work and causes more problems than they solve. I don't agree to spanking. But I spank is fine. I draw the line after several hits, idk where that gets you and psychology studies question it as well. I've worked with children and animals and both times spanking has made little progress. It has often lead to distrust of that person as well. To be fair, we all have different coping mechanisms to unwanted stimuli, and someone who is 18 often isn't going to think they same as someone who is 4. While one child may come out fine or not know if any issues arose from the spanking, a lot of children do not. And longitudinal studies will show it leads to disorders in the future and hindered social skills. Sometimes it works, most of the time it doesnt, it takes critical decision making to figure out if it will or not. [quote]You have probably never seen them used correctly. Admittedly, there are parents out there who take it way too far, but in all likelihood, they were shit parents to begin with. Anyway, I do understand what you are saying and I respect your opinion. Physical punishment can easily get out of hand if it is not applied correctly and with great care. It was always a last resort in my house growing up and it will continue to be.[/quote] I hope I never see them be used in anything other than bdsm. I don't believe you should ever hit a child with a wooden plank, plastic spoons, belts, flyswatters, or whatever. I draw the line there.

[quote][quote]Then the parents should not give in. If the kid won't eat, fine. Hunger strikes never worked in my house. Also, if the kid is laughing, you either are not spanking hard enough, or your child is crazy AF. [/quote] 1: That's not easy to do, honesty. Empathy really screws us over, a child often doesn't think death or a disease will occur if they don't eat for a long time. They know their stomach hurts and they feel tired. As an adult, you know what consequences can occur if a child doesn't eat. You also know if the kid goes anywhere and tells people they aren't eating, the story can be changed around to make CPS knock on your door in the next few days. Yet we could go on and on and on about this subject since there's children who will eat anyway, children who are stubborn as hell, parents who will go along with it as a joke, yaddah yaddah yaddah. If it didn't work in your house, good I guess but that doesn't justify spanking. 2: As for laughing, kids being kids will spread rumors like hell. Often times kids tell each other "if you do _____ you won't feel pain." Which can be debated since laughing does produce endorphins, and endorphins do make pain hurt less. Call them psychotic as a joke but it's actually pretty good method to avoiding pain. Hell, even kids cover their butt to avoid the pain. [quote]Fear comes in many forms. I had a respectful fear of my parents. This is not to say that I was scared of them. To the contrary, we have a very good relationship. The only time I was ever really afraid is when I had done something REALLY wrong. The positive experience with my parents vs the negative experience taught me from a young age that if I do right, all is well. If I do wrong, I will experience negative consequences, and that is really what it is all about.[/quote] 3: You see, as a child freshly out the womb who's only ability to learn is from those around it. You shouldn't fear anything if you do something wrong. It really didn't teach you right from wrong. It taught, in your own words, "if I do right, all is well." But what is right without being taught and explained why. Let's use this example: [quote]Johnny drops food on the floor. Johnny proceeds to pick it up and eat it. His mother then spanks him and says "no" while pointing a finger at him.[/quote] 4: As adults we know about bacteria, the 5 second rule, and reasons as why you might not eat something off the floor. This is easy to understand. As for young Johnny, this taught Johnny nothing. Johnny doesn't know why this happened. Johnny doesn't know why he's in trouble for cleaning up after himself. Johnny doesn't know what's so bad about eating food off the floor. Johnny probably cries now as his hand hurts and he's confused. Now Johnny's mom has to deal with making dinner and a crying a child. Johnny would've faired better if Johnny was told why it was wrong instead of being slapped in this situation. We could also debate multiple situations in this, and a spank can be valid in many of the situations, but really, you shouldn't fear anything when you're in trouble and you shouldn't just spank and leave it at that. Often times this just leads to "if I don't get caught", lying, and hiding or not telling the truth to avoid punishment. [quote]My parents used a combination of this. They always explained to me why certain actions were wrong. Thing is, that does not always work. Kids need to learn that wrong actions have negative consequences that can sometimes cause pain to others as well as themselves. Sometimes that message does not get across until they experience it.[/quote] 5: But both I and psychology will say that spanking without explanation doesn't work and causes more problems than they solve. I don't agree to spanking. But I spank is fine. I draw the line after several hits, idk where that gets you and psychology studies question it as well. I've worked with children and animals and both times spanking has made little progress. It has often lead to distrust of that person as well. 6: To be fair, we all have different coping mechanisms to unwanted stimuli, and someone who is 18 often isn't going to think they same as someone who is 4. While one child may come out fine or not know if any issues arose from the spanking, a lot of children do not. And longitudinal studies will show it leads to disorders in the future and hindered social skills. Sometimes it works, most of the time it doesnt, it takes critical decision making to figure out if it will or not. [quote]You have probably never seen them used correctly. Admittedly, there are parents out there who take it way too far, but in all likelihood, they were shit parents to begin with. Anyway, I do understand what you are saying and I respect your opinion. Physical punishment can easily get out of hand if it is not applied correctly and with great care. It was always a last resort in my house growing up and it will continue to be.[/quote] 7: I hope I never see them be used in anything other than bdsm. I don't believe you should ever hit a child with a wooden plank, plastic spoons, belts, flyswatters, or whatever. I draw the line there.[/quote] 1: The child will eventually eat when they are hungry enough. 2: Fake laughing does not produce those endorphins that you are talking about. 3: I disagree. Should a thief not fear going to jail? Should a murderer not fear the same? The lessons of right and wrong came earlier for me. Punishments were merely reinforcements that wrong actions have bad consequences. 4: If the child has been told over and over again not to eat things off the floor and why they shouldn't, but they still make the attempt, that is when the spanking comes into play. They need to feel the negative consequence to their action. 5: I have doubts over the studies that conclude that spanking a child is bad. Under what conditions were the spankings delivered in these studies? Were the parents spanking the child out of frustration and anger? Did they talk to their child afterwards and explain why it was done? Was the child told multiple times before that the behavior that lead to the spanking was unacceptable? For what action was the child being spanked? If you are familiar with these studies, then please link a few so I can read through them. Having been spanked before as a child, I do not see anything wrong with it. I turned out pretty normal and I trust my parents with my life. 6: Please link. These studies were able to rule out everything else that might cause these disorders? 7: A lot of people have been spanked and turned out fine, so either our parents knew how to do it right as their parents before them, or the studies are flawed.

Here's the links https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/moral-landscapes/201309/research-spanking-it-s-bad-all-kids http://www.apa.org/monitor/2012/04/spanking.aspx https://news.utexas.edu/2016/04/25/risks-of-harm-from-spanking-confirmed-by-researchers I know damn well they aren't gonna change your mind and you're gonna keep trying to disprove everything I say after so I'm not dealing with it. Read them or don't, idk, but when you can fathom an argument besides "it worked on me" and have actual data, facts, and information, then be my guest to share it with me. God forbid you couldn't Google search this on your own. But I can tell this is going to be nothing but one liners, you being "right" with your only data being you compared to hundreds of individuals, and just weird philosophical ideas that make sense to you and that's about it. But honestly, I don't have the stamina to deal with it tonight, tomorrow, or any other day.

It [i]is[/i] your opinion, but a good one at that. You never fail to bring up good points, and new ways to think about it. I guess the spanking is just what I'm used to, and I am yet to find a partner, much less start a family. I guess parenting methods will be something best left for me to decide in the future.

A wise decision, but it never hurts to plan for the future