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Destiny

Discuss all things Destiny.
6/22/2017 12:13:01 AM
178

Destiny 2's weapon system: Reality vs Perception

So ever since the DRE reveal, there has been a lot of talk about the new weapon system. There have been many posts claiming it will limit play and many more claiming that all these changes are the result of PvP. I understand players are concerned about such a big change, particularly without the context of having had a chance to actually try it out yet in the confines of Destiny 2. With all that said, I have played it and of everything I experienced playing the D2 PvE, the new weapon system was hands down my favorite change to the game and I'm not alone. Mercules904 (who's probably the preeminent weapon tester in the game) said when asked what it's like going back to D1 after playing D2 [quote]It's painful to me, actually. I never realized how much nicer it is not having special weapons all the time. D1 feels broken after D2[/quote] Now I know there was good reason within the D1 PvP experience to make these changes in D2. Weapon balancing was a shit-show as Bungie were never able to figure out a way to evenly balance out a system in which 2 of our 3 weapon slots were capable of OHKs. Ironically what is generally perceived as the best era in D1 PvP was the House of Wolves when DoTs mattered and served as a natural counter and suppressor to OHK weapons. We all witnesses the spiral out of control of specials and heavy after Dots were destroyed to where ammo nerfs were used as last ditch stopgaps. We all know the frustration amongst the community with Fusion Grenades. D2 PvP will certainly benefit from all OHK capable weapons being classed together and lead to a hopefully much easier system to balance (which by default will lead to a more stable game overall), but to paint that as the only reason for making the change is simply false. These changes were made with as much or more thought to PvE than they were PvP and again, having played it, I found the system to not only offer more interesting choices of loadouts, but just a much more fun and diverse play experience. One of the quotes about D2 I have issue with is [quote]Special and Heavy are fun. Those are going away at a rate of 50%[/quote] Well here is the hard truth behind that reality. They aren't being used much in PvE anyway so 50% of a fraction of kills changes what? I wanted to get an idea of how Primary, Special and Heavy weapons are actually used by players in Destiny 1 PvE so I did some research and found some interesting numbers. I reached out to Jay at Destinytracker to try to see if there's a way to get aggregate numbers across time periods, but for now I pulled the kill percentages by weapon class in each PvE activity on the most recent day those stats were available 6/3/2017 Here's are the kill percentages by activity for overall weapon class as well as detailed by weapon subclasses for that day. [url=http://i.imgur.com/UVrxpg9.jpg]Story overview[/url] [url=http://i.imgur.com/LJVBlp6.jpg]Story detail[/url] [url=http://i.imgur.com/oHbW3Zr.jpg]Strike overview[/url] [url=http://i.imgur.com/hMmKvLe.jpg]Strike detail[/url] [url=http://i.imgur.com/vinDkhZ.jpg]Raid overview[/url] [url=http://i.imgur.com/xNamf7B.jpg]Raid detail[/url] [url=http://i.imgur.com/xNamf7B.jpg]Patrol overview[/url] [url=http://i.imgur.com/y8H0Sja.jpg]Patrol detail[/url] Now these numbers are from a single day, but spread over weeks and months, the numbers are pretty consistent and what becomes clear is that by making this change to the weapon system, Bungie is allowing us greater use of the weapons we use most. (It's also pretty clear why MGs are going away as well) The reality of Destiny PvE is that Primary weapons are the lion's share of our kills and situations that dictate special and heavy weapons generally can be approached using either. The other reality (and the numbers back it up) is that we spend the majority of PvE sitting on special and heavy ammo until those specific situations arise. Destiny 2 is not Destiny 1. Yes it's still Destiny, but everything has evolved including mission and strike structure. Granted we only played an abridged first mission and one strike, but it's enough to see that it's its own game. The fights are more dynamic. There are more enemies on screen to contend with and we have more options at our disposal to fight those enemies with. In Destiny 1, I sit on my special and heavy ammo and use each vary sparingly. In D2 I was constantly swapping between my Pulse Rifle and Hand Cannon during the strike and whichever power weapon I had, I found I used more frequently because there were always bricks dropping and with just the one power slot vs D1's two, it actually encouraged using it more and not holding it for specific situations. Again this is my experience with D2 and yours might be completely different, but until you've had the opportunity to unload an Auto Rifle and instead of reloading, swapping to an SMG to keep burning through enemies, it's hard to look at the changes and really understand or appreciate how much they actually open up play and make encounters more diverse. The last thing I will add is that again, to all this talk that Destiny 2 is all about PvP and PvE is just an afterthought being dictated by PvP balancing... We haven't scratched the surface of what PvE will offer. We've seen half a story mission and a strike. We haven't seen the larger worlds yet, the Patrol missions, the Lost Sectors, the Flash Points, the updated public events, D2s take on PvE arenas, Quests and Bounties. We don't even know the progression systems or economy. So I understand speculation and I understand concern, but I do not accept that D2 is primarily a PvP experience and I don't agree it should keep D1's weapon system. D1 is an incredibly fun game but also one pretty broken in many ways and it manages to succeed in spite of it's faults. What I experienced with D2 was better across the board and I can't wait for everyone to get the opportunity to judge it for themselves.
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  • Edited by Lord Kielron: 6/22/2017 7:56:34 PM
    Oh boy......... I was going to just avoid this one, for certain reasons. However I keep coming back to it, so I guess I'll weigh in on this. First and foremost the graph regarding PvE weapon kills across the three types in PvE related events. Now I'm glad you posted the fact that these were numbers representing one specific day, and that it was kill related. That being said, kill statistics on this subject don't surprise me in the least, as you mainly use your primary for add kills, secondary for heavy shielded enemies and boss DPS, and heavy for unmanageable crowds (saber 2 strike comes to mind at warsat), and boss damage. So clearly anyone who has ever played PVE can say that that would be a representation of weapon usage, but not the be all end all. However, this is an extremely small sample size that does not properly take factors like ammo availability, and actual weapons usage across everything. Kills do not equal weapon usage no matter how you want to slice it. Sure you can get a general idea from a kills chart, but it's not going to prove anything re usage, as every PvE fight has specific criteria going on. For example, let's take Aksis part two for example. You have Shank spawns followed by shielded major captains. Are you going to use your sniper/shotgun/fusion/sidearm/rockets/mg on shanks? Only if they get close enough if you have a shotty equipped you may, but otherwise no. Now with the heavy shielded captains, are you going to primary them down? Also no. You may use a primary to finish them off, (which would count as a primary kill on your chart btw) but you bet your ass you would use other means at bringing the captain down than a primary. See where this is going so far? Another example, patrols. Unless you are fighting the taken boss or a public event, unless you are practicing shots (or using test weapons, lol), 9 times out of ten nothing warrants you to use your special or heavy often enough, therefore skewing the chart in a specific direction for kills. Strikes are similar to raids. Raids require specific weapons at specific times to maximize damage. You are not going to sit and DPS a boss character with primary as you are sort of on time clocks in raids to get it done due to the enrage mechanic. So naturally the kills chart is going to read things specific ways, and that's not even including differing time eras and other such nonsense. However, using this chart at face value is just as bad as Bungie deciding to nerf a weapon due to usage charts. You really are not taking the encounters and extenuating factors into account, which is the same mistake Bungie makes everytime they balance something because they see a weapon top dog, but do not research the reasoning behind the usage. Pretty sure if we saw a usage chart on specific primary weapons in different PvE activities, we would see that autos and HCs (not named Fatebringer) would be more towards the lower end of the spectrum and Scouts would be top end. But will that chart tell us why that would be the case? No. It'll just show that scouts are used much more than autos in PvE. See my point? I get that this may be a way for you to justify the new system's approach to things (I mean heck from the promotional stuff, looks like minotaurs have crit locations now to compensate for the change), but to me and others, it doesn't really show anything that we all don't already know without looking at a chart. Mini rant over -LK

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