From the title alone some of you will already know what this post is going to concern. This has a very simple goal. To lay out and examine the overarching "Tragedy of the Sovs" theory outlined by one jhermannITJ, a prolific user of these forums. Now while I have had my many disagreements with jhermannITJ in the past, [b]this post is not intended to send any harassment his way. It is not intended to shame him out of the community or gatekeep the #Lore subforum.[/b] I simply wanted to create a singular post as a resource for explaining why his attempts to prove his unified theory of the Destiny universe have been lacking in substance from my perspective. All posts quoted have been compiled within the most recent [url=https://www.bungie.net/en/Forums/Post/263676325?sort=0&page=0]Secrets[/url] post, which acts as a capstone to this apparent 7 part series. I would recommend you read them in full if just to understand what exactly this unified theory is, though if you don't want to I'll simply list the highlights: 1. Maya is the Madonna. 2. Savathun is Osana Sov and has been in control of the Traveler since it at least entered Sol. 3. Ghosts manipulated the Risen and Humanity into conflict with the Eliksni. 4. Our entire reality is a looping simulation for how Savathun can defeat the Witness. 5. The Distributary and Fundament are the same place (but also not, we'll get to that). 6. Mara Sov has been aligned with her mother, Savathun, this entire time. 7. Savathun seeks to enter the Distributary to generate infinite power so that she can defeat the Witness. 8. Riven this season was not Riven and instead a puppet controlled by Savathun to gather Riven's Eggs, which are actually keys to portals that will unleash Savathun's army. Was that a lot to take in? Trust me, trying to read the posts and figure this much out is even worse, because nothing is ever stated plainly. So, where do we begin? Could go chronologically with the posts, timeline or just the numbers I used. But let's just wing it, shall we? [b][u]3. Ghosts manipulated the Risen and Humanity into conflict with the Eliksni.[/u][/b] [url=https://www.bungie.net/en/Forums/Post/263676325?sort=0&page=0]Secrets[/url] [quote]This is Geppetto, being controlled by Savathun, instigating the Vanguard conflict/war with the Elikisni.[/quote] [url=https://www.ishtar-collective.net/entries/the-chosens-choice]The Chosens Choice[/url] So, that's where the claim comes from and the lore cited to prove it. What do we actually see in this lore? A Risen convinced by his Ghost to stay and defend a village being corrupted by being hailed as a saviour and turning Warlord. He kept them safe from Fallen raids and sacked other settlements to claim their resources. So where's the instigating of the war? Many people might not know this, but we actually know how the Humanity/Eliksni conflict started, and it wasn't because of a Ghost manipulating a single Risen. [url=https://www.ishtar-collective.net/entries/viii-and-also-light#book-achilles-weaves-a-cocoon]VIII: And Also Light[/url] [quote]"Riis…I was there, you know," Namrask whispers. "At the Whirlwind. After Chelchis fell, I sent ships to follow the Great Machine. I abandoned all those Houses that could not make war. I ordered my fleet to hunt the Machine. Many rallied after us. Each ship began its own war with the Humans. But maybe, I was first."[/quote] [quote]"I recognize you," the machine says. He quails. "Namrask sells fabrics," he croaks, pretending not to understand. "Namrask." She laughs quietly. "I am old, empty weaver. Almost as old as you, I think. But unlike most of my kind, I remember London—and you."[/quote] [quote]"I have not forgotten what you did when you were Akileuks. And I never will," she says quietly. He stole that name, like any other plunder, and used it. A Human hero's name, a great warrior and famous runner: Achilles, which means "woe to the enemy."[/quote] Namrask, as he calls himself, was once a leader of what would become the House of Devils. He responded to the Traveler fleeing Riis with anger and pursued it, abandoning many Eliksni civilians to die at the hands of Oryx's forces. He was one of if not the first Eliksni to arrive at Earth and almost immediately began to siege humanity in a zealous, jealous rage at them having being chosen by the Great Machine he venerated. He led the charge when the House of Devils burned London to the ground, slaughtering man, woman and child. Namrask seeks to abandon this past life out of shame, hence the new name, having gone so far as to renounce violence entirely. What part of this was instigated by Ghosts? Not to mention that if the Ghost cited in the lore was Geppetto, that would make the Risen/Warlord Saint-14. Yet the Ghost in the lore abandons their charge as she feels they’re a lost cause. Also, another less known piece of lore, we actually know how Saint-14 was resurrected and he wasn't left to wander alone with his Ghost or rule a village. [url=https://www.ishtar-collective.net/entries/15-shepherd]15 - Shepard[/url] [quote]"Geppetto and I searched many barren miles before we crossed the Cosmodrome. She had almost given up hope." He turns to face Saint-14. "That little Light knew exactly where to find you, once she was given the proper place to look." The Speaker chuckles.[/quote] Geppetto was one of the aimless Ghosts who decided to accompany the Speaker instead of searching for her Risen alone. Ever wonder why the Speaker and Saint ended up close enough to consider each other father and son? This is how. [b][u]5. The Distributary and Fundament are the same place (but also not, we'll get to that).[/u][/b] [url=https://www.bungie.net/en/Forums/Post/263619920?sort=0&page=0]Trust[/url] [quote]Use the DC as the staging ground for oblivion, use it to return to the Fundament/Distributary for the final phase - the surge of exponential power Savathun requires to kill the Witness.[/quote] So, that states pretty clearly that in this "Tragedy of the Sovs" theory, the Fundament and Distributary are the same place. Except.... [url=https://www.bungie.net/en/Forums/Post/263676325?sort=0&page=0]Secrets[/url] [quote]".... that this world was Tributary of another, but that it was forbidden to seek any way to rejoin the mother stream. For this reason, it would be called the Distributary, for that was the proper name for a river that branches from the mother and does not return". "forbidden" And it sounds like there is another place... the source, The Fundament as we know it.[/quote] So, is the Distributary and Fundament the same place, or is the Fundament the source for the Distributary? The first would have you believe that the origins of the Awoken as told in Marasenna and the origins of the Hive as told in the Books of Sorrow are the same. I shouldn't need to explain how 40891 people waking up as glowy star people after plunging into a black hole and three desperate siblings diving into the ocean to make a pact with five Worm Gods are entirely incompatible, but to do this let's rope in part of another claim made. [b][u]2. Savathun is Osana Sov[/u][/b] Which, fun fact, I haven't been able to find a single quote that states this directly. It's usually all non-specific allusions to Mara Sov's mother or Osana and Savathun having similarities. But if you actually read through jhermannITJ's posts, you'll see that this is a rather central pillar of connecting the entire thing. Besides the aforementioned incompatibility of the BoS and Marasenna, the major issue here is the timeline. Savathun was present during the Collapse as she arrived alongside the forces of the Witness. [url=https://www.ishtar-collective.net/transcripts/of-queens-and-worms-parasitic-pilgrimage]Parasitic Pilgrimage[/url] [quote]Humanity’s Collapse. Even the Witness deceived. The Witch Queen did its bidding. Earned its trust. Rode alongside to apocalypse. [/quote] This is where Savathun, unbeknownst to the Witness, betrayed it. Her illusions had some effect in turning the tide, but as this went on the Witch Queen poisoned Nezarec and stole the Veil. [url=https://www.ishtar-collective.net/entries/conditional-finality]Conditional Finality[/url] [url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4CoHr_LgvYo]Root of Nightmares: All Nezarec dialogue[/url] [quote]"After that witch killed me and cursed my remains, I assume that's when she whisked the Veil away to Neptune"[/quote] Yet we know that at this time the Yang Liwei had long since departed Earth, with Osana Sov onboard. [url=https://www.ishtar-collective.net/entries/brephos-i#book-marasenna]Brephos I[/url] [quote]She is going with Yang Liwei and the rest of Project Amrita to make new worlds. She came because she saw an omen in a man's death. She was on EVA with him, repairing a jammed radiator fin on an uncrewed circum-Jovian platform. They worked in companionable silence, listening to the howl of the Jovian magnetosphere when it happened. A frozen rabbit embryo came out of deep space at forty kilometers per second and went through his faceplate. The rabbit must have been spilled in a biocontainer accident far from the sun to plunge back inward like a comet. Immediately afterward—for reasons very clear to her because she has always had a sense for the meaning of things, reasons very difficult to explain to others because she has always felt this sense was secret—she asked her mother if the family could travel with Project Amrita.[/quote] Mara is the reason why her mother and brother even got on the Exodus Green in the first place, because she got a feeling that death was coming. Reached the limit, so this is where I'll have to break things so that I can even fit everything. To be continued I suppose!