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Destiny 2

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Bearbeitet von Shockwave 989: 2/23/2024 4:17:36 PM
10

A "Scholar's" Rebuke

From the title alone some of you will already know what this post is going to concern. This has a very simple goal. To lay out and examine the overarching "Tragedy of the Sovs" theory outlined by one jhermannITJ, a prolific user of these forums. Now while I have had my many disagreements with jhermannITJ in the past, [b]this post is not intended to send any harassment his way. It is not intended to shame him out of the community or gatekeep the #Lore subforum.[/b] I simply wanted to create a singular post as a resource for explaining why his attempts to prove his unified theory of the Destiny universe have been lacking in substance from my perspective. All posts quoted have been compiled within the most recent [url=https://www.bungie.net/en/Forums/Post/263676325?sort=0&page=0]Secrets[/url] post, which acts as a capstone to this apparent 7 part series. I would recommend you read them in full if just to understand what exactly this unified theory is, though if you don't want to I'll simply list the highlights: 1. Maya is the Madonna. 2. Savathun is Osana Sov and has been in control of the Traveler since it at least entered Sol. 3. Ghosts manipulated the Risen and Humanity into conflict with the Eliksni. 4. Our entire reality is a looping simulation for how Savathun can defeat the Witness. 5. The Distributary and Fundament are the same place (but also not, we'll get to that). 6. Mara Sov has been aligned with her mother, Savathun, this entire time. 7. Savathun seeks to enter the Distributary to generate infinite power so that she can defeat the Witness. 8. Riven this season was not Riven and instead a puppet controlled by Savathun to gather Riven's Eggs, which are actually keys to portals that will unleash Savathun's army. Was that a lot to take in? Trust me, trying to read the posts and figure this much out is even worse, because nothing is ever stated plainly. So, where do we begin? Could go chronologically with the posts, timeline or just the numbers I used. But let's just wing it, shall we? [b][u]3. Ghosts manipulated the Risen and Humanity into conflict with the Eliksni.[/u][/b] [url=https://www.bungie.net/en/Forums/Post/263676325?sort=0&page=0]Secrets[/url] [quote]This is Geppetto, being controlled by Savathun, instigating the Vanguard conflict/war with the Elikisni.[/quote] [url=https://www.ishtar-collective.net/entries/the-chosens-choice]The Chosens Choice[/url] So, that's where the claim comes from and the lore cited to prove it. What do we actually see in this lore? A Risen convinced by his Ghost to stay and defend a village being corrupted by being hailed as a saviour and turning Warlord. He kept them safe from Fallen raids and sacked other settlements to claim their resources. So where's the instigating of the war? Many people might not know this, but we actually know how the Humanity/Eliksni conflict started, and it wasn't because of a Ghost manipulating a single Risen. [url=https://www.ishtar-collective.net/entries/viii-and-also-light#book-achilles-weaves-a-cocoon]VIII: And Also Light[/url] [quote]"Riis…I was there, you know," Namrask whispers. "At the Whirlwind. After Chelchis fell, I sent ships to follow the Great Machine. I abandoned all those Houses that could not make war. I ordered my fleet to hunt the Machine. Many rallied after us. Each ship began its own war with the Humans. But maybe, I was first."[/quote] [quote]"I recognize you," the machine says. He quails. "Namrask sells fabrics," he croaks, pretending not to understand. "Namrask." She laughs quietly. "I am old, empty weaver. Almost as old as you, I think. But unlike most of my kind, I remember London—and you."[/quote] [quote]"I have not forgotten what you did when you were Akileuks. And I never will," she says quietly. He stole that name, like any other plunder, and used it. A Human hero's name, a great warrior and famous runner: Achilles, which means "woe to the enemy."[/quote] Namrask, as he calls himself, was once a leader of what would become the House of Devils. He responded to the Traveler fleeing Riis with anger and pursued it, abandoning many Eliksni civilians to die at the hands of Oryx's forces. He was one of if not the first Eliksni to arrive at Earth and almost immediately began to siege humanity in a zealous, jealous rage at them having being chosen by the Great Machine he venerated. He led the charge when the House of Devils burned London to the ground, slaughtering man, woman and child. Namrask seeks to abandon this past life out of shame, hence the new name, having gone so far as to renounce violence entirely. What part of this was instigated by Ghosts? Not to mention that if the Ghost cited in the lore was Geppetto, that would make the Risen/Warlord Saint-14. Yet the Ghost in the lore abandons their charge as she feels they’re a lost cause. Also, another less known piece of lore, we actually know how Saint-14 was resurrected and he wasn't left to wander alone with his Ghost or rule a village. [url=https://www.ishtar-collective.net/entries/15-shepherd]15 - Shepard[/url] [quote]"Geppetto and I searched many barren miles before we crossed the Cosmodrome. She had almost given up hope." He turns to face Saint-14. "That little Light knew exactly where to find you, once she was given the proper place to look." The Speaker chuckles.[/quote] Geppetto was one of the aimless Ghosts who decided to accompany the Speaker instead of searching for her Risen alone. Ever wonder why the Speaker and Saint ended up close enough to consider each other father and son? This is how. [b][u]5. The Distributary and Fundament are the same place (but also not, we'll get to that).[/u][/b] [url=https://www.bungie.net/en/Forums/Post/263619920?sort=0&page=0]Trust[/url] [quote]Use the DC as the staging ground for oblivion, use it to return to the Fundament/Distributary for the final phase - the surge of exponential power Savathun requires to kill the Witness.[/quote] So, that states pretty clearly that in this "Tragedy of the Sovs" theory, the Fundament and Distributary are the same place. Except.... [url=https://www.bungie.net/en/Forums/Post/263676325?sort=0&page=0]Secrets[/url] [quote]".... that this world was Tributary of another, but that it was forbidden to seek any way to rejoin the mother stream. For this reason, it would be called the Distributary, for that was the proper name for a river that branches from the mother and does not return". "forbidden" And it sounds like there is another place... the source, The Fundament as we know it.[/quote] So, is the Distributary and Fundament the same place, or is the Fundament the source for the Distributary? The first would have you believe that the origins of the Awoken as told in Marasenna and the origins of the Hive as told in the Books of Sorrow are the same. I shouldn't need to explain how 40891 people waking up as glowy star people after plunging into a black hole and three desperate siblings diving into the ocean to make a pact with five Worm Gods are entirely incompatible, but to do this let's rope in part of another claim made. [b][u]2. Savathun is Osana Sov[/u][/b] Which, fun fact, I haven't been able to find a single quote that states this directly. It's usually all non-specific allusions to Mara Sov's mother or Osana and Savathun having similarities. But if you actually read through jhermannITJ's posts, you'll see that this is a rather central pillar of connecting the entire thing. Besides the aforementioned incompatibility of the BoS and Marasenna, the major issue here is the timeline. Savathun was present during the Collapse as she arrived alongside the forces of the Witness. [url=https://www.ishtar-collective.net/transcripts/of-queens-and-worms-parasitic-pilgrimage]Parasitic Pilgrimage[/url] [quote]Humanity’s Collapse. Even the Witness deceived. The Witch Queen did its bidding. Earned its trust. Rode alongside to apocalypse. [/quote] This is where Savathun, unbeknownst to the Witness, betrayed it. Her illusions had some effect in turning the tide, but as this went on the Witch Queen poisoned Nezarec and stole the Veil. [url=https://www.ishtar-collective.net/entries/conditional-finality]Conditional Finality[/url] [url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4CoHr_LgvYo]Root of Nightmares: All Nezarec dialogue[/url] [quote]"After that witch killed me and cursed my remains, I assume that's when she whisked the Veil away to Neptune"[/quote] Yet we know that at this time the Yang Liwei had long since departed Earth, with Osana Sov onboard. [url=https://www.ishtar-collective.net/entries/brephos-i#book-marasenna]Brephos I[/url] [quote]She is going with Yang Liwei and the rest of Project Amrita to make new worlds. She came because she saw an omen in a man's death. She was on EVA with him, repairing a jammed radiator fin on an uncrewed circum-Jovian platform. They worked in companionable silence, listening to the howl of the Jovian magnetosphere when it happened. A frozen rabbit embryo came out of deep space at forty kilometers per second and went through his faceplate. The rabbit must have been spilled in a biocontainer accident far from the sun to plunge back inward like a comet. Immediately afterward—for reasons very clear to her because she has always had a sense for the meaning of things, reasons very difficult to explain to others because she has always felt this sense was secret—she asked her mother if the family could travel with Project Amrita.[/quote] Mara is the reason why her mother and brother even got on the Exodus Green in the first place, because she got a feeling that death was coming. Reached the limit, so this is where I'll have to break things so that I can even fit everything. To be continued I suppose!
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  • Good Job. Even if this post is written as a rebuttal, it was genuinely crafted well. You use not only text evidence, with the very context “they” lack so as to show the failings of their post, but the very structure of your rebuttal so as to show how a lore post should be written. Where as they use innocuous language and vague phrases to allude to one random iota of an idea or another, you plainly and clearly state what the lore states, its context, and how it relates to the over arching narrative, without leaving room for questions unless the very lore itself be vague. Whereas they use their posts to confuse others so as to quell rebuttals like this before they can even start, you leave your own arguments open and exposed to judgement and scrutiny. In other words, you literally write better than they do. For that I applaud. In comparison to me, I would have a hard time organizing my thoughts and writing clearly, even if my intention is to be clear. You have my respect.

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    • Oh that feeling of death coming and trying to avoid it, been there, not fun.

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      • As someone who has dealt with them in the past, I'd say the best option is just to ignore them and leave them to shout into the void. Don't get yourself in trouble with posts like this, even if I understand the intent. You are aware his approach to everything currently existing in the lore is to assume it is all falsehood and deceptions and that only they have figured out "the truth". It was not long after Ahsa was revealed as a character that they started "theorizing" that Ahsa was actually a "cursed Alis Li", and they further tried to claim the Witness' backstory was actually about Osana Sov, IIRC. Do not forget they've got this idea that Cayde-6 is some "divine savior" that Maya Sundaresh created as the "first Exo"/"first Godkiller", despite everything on Europa and now Neomuna shooting both aspects of the theory down. Clovis Bray created the Exos, and we got a strong look at Maya Sundaresh's character through the Veil Containment logs. Even when the end of this Season and then the Final Shape come around and inevitably disprove their theories, they will just shift the goalpost to further down the line.

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        • I have to say, Shockwave. Your post fascinates me. You clearly put your time into this. To rebel against a misleading (yet kind of creative) theory by jhermannITJ. As I said before, you have my respect. However…. Don’t put your obsession into this war. Follow the approach of Lasombra, who had also taken a stance against jhermannITJ, although it’s a more forced and open-and-shut scenario. You have my respect, Guardian. Don’t let this consume you. Otherwise, you and jhermannITJ will be at each other’s throats forever…

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          • [I][u]Continued from main post.[/u][/i] They were in-transit when the Collapse began. [url=https://www.ishtar-collective.net/entries/cosmogyre-i#book-marasenna]Cosmogyre I[/url] [quote]"We've been commissioned as an auxiliary warship. We are ordered to," Comm swallows in disbelief, "to kill our exit trajectory and assume a heliocentric orbit. That comes with explicit instructions to suicide burn our engines until they are destroyed. Rasputin will transmit targeting coordinates so we can use our Kinetic weapons as… long-range artillery. We'll be recovered 'after the crisis is concluded.'" "Details! What kind of crisis?" "It's a SKYSHOCK event, ma'am. Uh, that's a hostile extrasolar arrival."[/quote] This is the moment that Rasputin declares a SKYSHOCK event, meaning that he is placing the entire solar system under his control in order to coordinate a united defensive effort. As the crew scrambles to vote on a response, whether to continue their mission or assist, we get something that goes understated when it comes to the character of Mara. [url=https://www.ishtar-collective.net/entries/cosmogyre-ii#book-marasenna]Cosmogyre II[/url] [quote]"Mara. You don't have to tell me how…" He swallows the hitch in his voice. "I've seen how bad it is. I've watched it long enough to know that it's not going to get better. They're gambling everything on the Traveler. We came out here to get away from it. To step off the easy path. Why would we go back?" Because I asked us to leave, Mara thinks. Because something came out of deep space and killed the man next to me, and I saw the omen, and I said we should go. And now I feel like a coward. "We might make a difference," she says. "There are other ships…" "We'd be dead before we saved a single soul." He's right. She doesn't want him to be right, but he's right. And she cannot withdraw into some silent place where she is above this choice.[/quote] Despite leaving on the ship specifically because she felt death was coming to Sol, Mara feels guilty when she's proven right. Against all logic, she wants to go back and try to help. This is important to understand, because this informs everything she does after becoming Awoken. But before a decision can be made, the ship runs into an issue. [url=https://www.ishtar-collective.net/entries/cosmogyre-iii#book-marasenna]Cosmogyre III[/url] [quote]"INCO." She clings to her restraint harness as the ship growls through another wave. Her bones creak as they stretch. "Last report on the Traveler? Any sign of an intervention?" "It was at Earth, Captain, and there were high-yield weapon discharges all over the signal. Nothing else."[/quote] At this point the ship has been caught in the grip of what is presumably a Pyramid Ship, trapped in its gravity waves. As they sit waiting for this unseen enemy to do something, as the captain transmits a hopeless claim of neutrality in whatever conflict brought it here, the Traveler responds. [url=https://www.ishtar-collective.net/entries/cosmogyre-iv#book-marasenna]Cosmogyre IV[/url] [quote]Suddenly, as if the void around her has just spontaneously Big Banged, she sees light. A point of pure white shines in the cosmic distance. Not just visible luminance—her suit decomposes the spectrum—but light in the radio bands, in microwave, keening ultraviolet, a spike of gamma, a total and all-embracing radiation. It sings. It chatters. It speaks in a voice older than suns. She feels that she could Fourier the voice for a century and never decompose it into its parts. It is awesome and appalling and piercingly true. Mara understands how those who die in radiation accidents must feel: A single flash of invisible power sears away all possible futures except one. She feels her soul itself has been ionized, blasted into a higher energy state. The light pierces the darkness. Not like the sunrise, not like a wall or a flood, but a single crepuscular ray—a finger of radiance that reaches out through deepest night to touch her. It illuminates Mara, Uldwyn, and Yang Liwei.[/quote] And it is in this response that a singularity is created. [quote]She feels a contest. A battle fought, an equilibrium reached: not a truce, but an infinite limit, like an equation dividing by zero, a collision of two violent eternities. Mara queries Yang Liwei for telemetry and her sensorium fills with the terrified scream of gravitational instruments. She howls too, a feral sound, ecstatic and lost: a wolf baying at the stars. She knows what's happening. Too much power has gathered here. The universe is appalled by the paradox. Nothing that has glimpsed this collision of infinitudes can be allowed to escape. The cosmos must censor its embarrassment. It must sequester the anomaly. The slope of warped space-time around them has become too steep, and now every path outward or forward bends back to the center where Light and Dark collide. The definition of "future" has become synonymous with the definition of "inward." This is why it's called an event horizon: For an object within the horizon, the path of all future things that can be done or seen leads inevitably down to the center. All events lead inward. A singularity is forming around her. A kugelblitz: a black hole created by the concentration of raw energy.[/quote] It is within this singularity that the Distributary would be created, a pocket dimension born of both the Light and Dark. The great crime that Mara later describes to Alis Li, first Queen of the Awoken and the part Mara was relieved her mother hadn't figured out is the fact that Mara was the first, who shaped and defined this space. Yet instead of allowing the Awoken to live as gods, Mara made them mortal, able to lead an eternal life within the Distributary yet still able to die. She introduced death into heaven so that when the time came, other Awoken would join her in returning to the universe outside. And so Mara Sov would lead an exodus out into the material universe. An exodus her mother would refuse to join her on. Why is this important? Because even if Osana Sov left later, as jhermannITJ suggests; [url=https://www.bungie.net/en/Forums/Post/263676325?sort=0&page=0]Secrets[/url] [quote]"I'm not coming with you," Osana says". ".... with YOU". Not that she wouldn't... or didn't leave. Not that she hadn't made her own choices.[/quote] [quote]Osana definitely left the distributary because she was on board the Exodus Green at some point....[/quote] This wouldn't matter, due to the nature of time within the Distributary. [url=https://www.ishtar-collective.net/entries/katabasis#book-marasenna]Katabasis[/url] [quote]"Conventional relativity would suggest that time outside an event horizon passes quickly compared to a clock within, but our universe has a peculiar relationship with its mother. Thousands of years have passed for us on the Distributary. Outside? Centuries, at most. We are a swift eddy in a slow river.[/quote] When Mara Sov's fleet exits the singularity, they end up settling the Reef between the Dark Age and City Age. [url=https://www.ishtar-collective.net/entries/revanche-ii#book-the-awoken-of-the-reef]Revanche II[/url] [quote]"We've found Humanity," she tells them. "We've found our ancestors." The cheer of triumph and wonder thrills her to the marrow. Most of these Awoken are Distributary-born, raised on myths of Humanity and the Traveler. She has just opened the pages of their storybooks and conjured them to life. "What remains of the Human species lives in a single settlement." She nods to Uldren, who snaps his fingers for footage. His ship's holographic perspective plunges through fluffy strata of clouds and mist, out into clear air. A lucid vista, a perfect instant: the white mountains, the city, and the enormous shattered sphere that hangs above it. "Freeze," Uldren commands. "That is the Traveler."[/quote] So if we go with the original claim that the Distributary and the Fundament are the same place, this means Osana Sov cannot be Savathun. Time within the Distributary still passes alongside time in our reality, just at a slower rate. To be present at the climax of the Collapse to save the Traveler, Savathun would've had to have left the Distributary almost as soon as she entered it, and then returned at a later point. That's entirely disregarding that Savathun existed long before this point to even come under the fold of the Witness, but we're going to pretend for the sake of argument that it makes sense. Which begs the question. [b][u]7. Savathun seeks to enter the Distributary to generate infinite power so that she can defeat the Witness.[/u][/b] Why hasn't Savathun returned to the Distributary already? Why does she need to go back and forth between our universe and the Distributary before unleashing this masterstroke of a plan?

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            • "Scholar" 💀

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              • Damn Daniel, shits going down in the D2 lore community.

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                • Bearbeitet von John Marston: 2/23/2024 6:47:39 PM
                  Just imagine how this would play out We stop The Witness just for Mara to show up and be all like "Thank you Guardian. With them out of the way, now I can bring about Destiny 2: The Final Shape as my mother (Savathun) and envisioned it!" que the boss music It'd be awful

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                  • 1
                    Intense!

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